Women who flake

[guru1000]

THE FLAKE IS NOT THE END OF THE ROAD.

Not on the first date anyways.


From Tyler Durden:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=129725
From Allen Thompson:
http://www.sosuave.com/articles/persistence.htm
And this guy:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=81724

You don't have to do just what these guys say, but I have found their basic attitude extremely helpful.
I used to take flakes super personally myself, but I've gotten a lot more laid back about it recently, largely thanks to these guys.

Hey Phyzzle,

Great Links. These articles make a great deal of sense. However, they are written with one outcome in mind, GETTING LAID. Of course, everyone has different goals.

I can agree with you on the point of CONFIDENT PERSISTANCE if my goal was to put more notches in my bed post. Why give up easily, if our mission is to sleep with MANY.

This is not my goal. My goal is to find the one most compatible with me.

Low IL women that need to be INJECTED with INTEREST by TACTICS will not reciprocate HIGH IL in the GENUINE you long-term.

My RAW experience has taught me if a woman shows HIGH IL in the REAL you, this relationship will endure the test of time.

All the great marriages of others and personal relationships of mine in the past have had HUGE sparks flying from the initial encounter. These Relationships PERSERVERE because high IL had IGNITED from the first encounter. I did not have to SELL myself and create an ARTIFICIAL frame to work from.

These are the kind of relationships that END only on your TERMS. (Your low IL)

The question might arise "How could you reasonably expect to bring an IL so high at an initial encounter that they will be eagerly anticipating your phone call."

Play the numbers game and you shall see. I rather sieve through a 1000 to find 10 HIGH IL's , then sieve through 100 to find 10 LOW IL's.

I am not a PUA. I am a filterer. I filter through the garbage to find the worthwhile. Who I choose to spend my time with has to be given careful consideration.

One of the fundamental roots of this consideration is HIGH IL.

 

[DjVelvet]

This is important because it lets us see that a flaky woman is a double whammy. How CAN you ever raise a woman's interest level if she doesn't show up to the initial meetings?

Confident persistence?

 

[jophil28]

You have to practice Flake Prevention by tightening up your method. There are tell-tale signs usually that warn that she's making the date, but going to flake.

This is good advice.
Perhaps Armstong still believes that women say what they mean ??
He needs to understand several things- women are unreliable and unstable.They rarely say what they mean ,and more importantly, they almost never mean what they say.
So ,what to do?
Follow Mr Me's advice and you will filter out the 'tire kickers' and the AWs and thereby NOT waste your time on flakey women.

I have a different take on some of this too -
Firstly women's INTEREST in you does NOt follow the same graph as yours does in her. AS David D says, her IL in YOU slowly rises up like a volume knob on one of those old radios. YOU need to be the one in charge of turning the dial up. THis NEVER goes all the way up on the first meeting (and you do not want it to)
Therefor, her IL will not be at its highest first up. Secondly IL can rise and fall and drop like a stone in the few days after she first meets you - perhaps her insecurities kick in or she analyses you with her g/fs and they sabotage you by remote control because THEY do not have a date - pure envy. Women are like this .
Women go over every minute detail of that first meeting with you . YOu have been and will be discussed and dissected..
It does not take much doubt to creep in and WHAM - she flakes.

I have also found this to be true. The more DOMINANT you are in setting up the details of the date , the higher the chance of her turning up.
I have set up dates in a wishy washy way, and expected her IL from the first meeting to carry her thru and a lot of the time she will flake. That initial IL is a bad source of energy .She has NO real emotional investment in you YET to protect . YOu need to be firm. clear and dominant in how you set it up. Do NOt leave her any wriggle room. Women prefer structured dates which are designed and set up by YOU.. Why? BEcause that way they feel sure that YOU are going to show up too. If you leave any of the important details open ended you will get high flake levels.

Good hunting.

 

[armstrong]

This is good advice.
Perhaps Armstong still believes that women say what they mean ??
He needs to understand several things- women are unreliable and unstable.They rarely say what they mean ,and more importantly, they almost never mean what they say.
So ,what to do?
Follow Mr Me's advice and you will filter out the 'tire kickers' and the AWs and thereby NOT waste your time on flakey women.

I have a different take on some of this too -
Firstly women's INTEREST in you does NOt follow the same graph as yours does in her. AS David D says, her IL in YOU slowly rises up like a volume knob on one of those old radios. YOU need to be the one in charge of turning the dial up. THis NEVER goes all the way up on the first meeting (and you do not want it to)
Therefor, her IL will not be at its highest first up. Secondly IL can rise and fall and drop like a stone in the few days after she first meets you - perhaps her insecurities kick in or she analyses you with her g/fs and they sabotage you by remote control because THEY do not have a date - pure envy. Women are like this .
Women go over every minute detail of that first meeting with you . YOu have been and will be discussed and dissected..
It does not take much doubt to creep in and WHAM - she flakes.

I have also found this to be true. The more DOMINANT you are in setting up the details of the date , the higher the chance of her turning up.
I have set up dates in a wishy washy way, and expected her IL from the first meeting to carry her thru and a lot of the time she will flake. That initial IL is a bad source of energy .She has NO real emotional investment in you YET to protect . YOu need to be firm. clear and dominant in how you set it up. Do NOt leave her any wriggle room. Women prefer structured dates which are designed and set up by YOU.. Why? BEcause that way they feel sure that YOU are going to show up too. If you leave any of the important details open ended you will get high flake levels.

Good hunting.

This last one basically said she was excited and was looking forward to it. Are you saying that internally I should have said, "Yeah right?"

I will admit I want to believe what women say because I'm honest and want to date a woman who is honest also. If I ask someone a question I expect a straight answer. This is hard to deal with when a woman says she wants to do something together and then flakes. I see it more as she thought it was funny to screw with me than her being unstable or unreliable.

I don't believe I left any of the important details open. I told her when, where and what we'd be doing. That was a few days ago and the only contact I had with her was her flaking today.

 

[jophil28]

I will admit I want to believe what women say because I'm honest and want to date a woman who is honest also. If I ask someone a question I expect a straight answer. This is hard to deal with when a woman says she wants to do something together and then flakes. I see it more as she thought it was funny to screw with me than her being unstable or unreliable.

Lets just take this point by point - here is the first point. Your being an open honest person will pay dividends but usually only with other equally honest people. Most are people are not.
What women say is usually not a good indicator of their future actions. Women are approval seekers, attention grabbers and risk avoiders. They say things to satisfy any of the requirements of these traits.

High IL is only one factor at work in determining whether a woman will follow through on her words. Even then her APPARENT high IL is never 'money in the bank' UNTIL you have an established relationship with her. Touchy feely gestures by women on the initial connection are "feel good" moments which mean little if the woman's subsequent behavior is incongruent.
Most of us do NOt have movie star looks or sports hero status so we cannot rely on the "hook" that famous people have. WE need to work with what we have and that means that we need to work smarter and not invest time and energy into unstable women.
I have had women who have shown high IL and then flaked two days later. Why ? Who cares why .Unless she had a credible explanation and offered to make it up to me then she just disqualified herself as a contender.

In the wash up we need to remember that woman are anxiety ridden, doubt filled, insecure and mistrusting of men. They also appear to not have an ethical code as we men understand that concept. They prefer to make up the 'rules' as they go along and like to believe that wrongdoing is confined to men's behavior toward women. The illusion of "entitlement' that pervades womanhood today just make this so much worse

Good hunting.

 

[STR8UP]

This last one basically said she was excited and was looking forward to it. Are you saying that internally I should have said, "Yeah right?"

I will admit I want to believe what women say because I'm honest and want to date a woman who is honest also. If I ask someone a question I expect a straight answer. This is hard to deal with when a woman says she wants to do something together and then flakes. I see it more as she thought it was funny to screw with me than her being unstable or unreliable.

I don't believe I left any of the important details open. I told her when, where and what we'd be doing. That was a few days ago and the only contact I had with her was her flaking today.

Dude....I'm EXACTLY the same way.

Unfortunately, in this world you can't go around expecting to receive the same level of courtesy you extend to others, ESPECIALLY women.

I'm telling you.....half the time these chicks flake I'm thinking it's totally in the bag. Super high interest level all the way when we make plans, then the day comes, I make arrangements in my schedule, and they don't follow through.

It's bad to think that you have to stoop to other people's level, but think about it.....if you were the one making plans with a chick, and you just "happened" to make plans with three other people, and you decided to go with plan "B", "C", or "D" instead of plan "A" with her, do you think that your date is gonna want you MORE or want you LESS when you give her some BS excuse as to why you can't make it?

Truth be told, whatever you feel when a woman disses you......a woman feels times 3 when she gets dissed.

 

[STR8UP]

And you know what's even worse?

Having a chick ask YOU out, tell you she wants to take you out to dinner, and flake on THAT.

I'm telling you, it's almost like you have no choice nowadays but to play the selfish bastard and plan a preemptive strike.

 

[Jitterbug]

I have two ways to deal with flaking (especially at an early stage):

- Plan a date so that I can go along and enjoy it with or without her. Among my favourites are social dancing or seeing a local band. I know many people at those places I go to, so I can always have a great time.

- Stack dates. Kinda the same as what chicks do.

armstrong, when did you plan that first date? If it were on a weekend night, it'd make sense as to why she flaked on you despite high IL. Most attractive women are party hoppers on weekends. They love to go in groups from one party to another, sucking up as much attention as they can along the way. She might indeed want to see you that night, but when her group come along asking her to join them, in that moment, you'll vanish from her mind.

To avoid such competition, I'd plan the first couple of dates at times when she isn't likely to go on group activities.

Actually the above also applies to after the first few dates, as I've found out through my recent experience (in another thread).

 

[armstrong]

I have two ways to deal with flaking (especially at an early stage):

- Plan a date so that I can go along and enjoy it with or without her. Among my favourites are social dancing or seeing a local band. I know many people at those places I go to, so I can always have a great time.

- Stack dates. Kinda the same as what chicks do.

armstrong, when did you plan that first date? If it were on a weekend night, it'd make sense as to why she flaked on you despite high IL. Most attractive women are party hoppers on weekends. They love to go in groups from one party to another, sucking up as much attention as they can along the way. She might indeed want to see you that night, but when her group come along asking her to join them, in that moment, you'll vanish from her mind.

To avoid such competition, I'd plan the first couple of dates at times when she isn't likely to go on group activities.

Actually the above also applies to after the first few dates, as I've found out through my recent experience (in another thread).

We planned it on Thursday and agreed to meet up Saturday during the day. Saturday morning I got a text from her saying she was sick and that we're going to have to re-schedule.

 

[Jitterbug]

She might actually be sick - e.g getting a hangover from Friday night drinks, or simply after a long week at work. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt here, if this were the first time she's done this.

 

[armstrong]

She might actually be sick - e.g getting a hangover from Friday night drinks, or simply after a long week at work. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt here, if this were the first time she's done this.

Well naturally I want to do that because I want to find the good in people. But I've heard the sick excuse so many times from flaky women that I'm not buying it anymore. It's about as common as some of the stupid pickup lines that a lot of dudes use.

 

[Mr. Me]

We planned it on Thursday and agreed to meet up Saturday during the day.

I hate to sound like a "Rules" guy - but I have to! They circumvent the unintentional doing of damage. Making a date for two days later, especially when it's for the weekend, does send a couple of messages - unconsciously - whether they're factual or not:

1. I may be the desperate kind; I wanna see ya right away!
2. I have nothing going on this weekend. No plans, no friends, no other girls, no nothing. Um, wanna join me?

Saturday morning I got a text from her saying she was sick and that we're going to have to re-schedule.

I think the way to tell whether this is legit is to hear that counter offer. And it's not there in this case. I mean, reverse this situation: imagine you're sick as a dog, and there's this chick you have a date with Saturday afternoon. You'd call her to cancel, sure, but wouldn't you also say "but look, let me make it up to you... how's next Wednesday, around 7?" Man, you'd do that even if you were on your death bed!

I think, when gals are at least moderately interested, they're AFRAID of losing out on the guy they're interested in. Hey! He could be The One! "Oh sh!t! I just got my period and I'm cramping like hell. Ow! And I have that date later. F#ck! Where's my Moltrin????!!!??? SH1T!!!! I better call him and reschedule! F#ck! Hope he doesn't think I'm flaking out on him!"

 

[armstrong]

I hate to sound like a "Rules" guy - but I have to! They circumvent the unintentional doing of damage. Making a date for two days later, especially when it's for the weekend, does send a couple of messages - unconsciously - whether they're factual or not:

1. I may be the desperate kind; I wanna see ya right away!
2. I have nothing going on this weekend. No plans, no friends, no other girls, no nothing. Um, wanna join me?



I think the way to tell whether this is legit is to hear that counter offer. And it's not there in this case. I mean, reverse this situation: imagine you're sick as a dog, and there's this chick you have a date with Saturday afternoon. You'd call her to cancel, sure, but wouldn't you also say "but look, let me make it up to you... how's next Wednesday, around 7?" Man, you'd do that even if you were on your death bed!

I think, when gals are at least moderately interested, they're AFRAID of losing out on the guy they're interested in. Hey! He could be The One! "Oh sh!t! I just got my period and I'm cramping like hell. Ow! And I have that date later. F#ck! Where's my Moltrin????!!!??? SH1T!!!! I better call him and reschedule! F#ck! Hope he doesn't think I'm flaking out on him!"

Well this is what happened. I called her initially on Wed. night and got the voicemail. I left a simple message saying guess I missed you and we'll catch up later. She e-mails the next day saying she was sorry she missed me and asked me what I was up to. That's when I initiated the plans for Saturday. The whole exchange was over e-mail.

Are you saying that if you can't get it done a certain number of days in advance you shouldn't try at all? Everyone I've ever met has said to strike while the iron is hot. In other words, you can't wait too long to call and you can't make dates too far in advance. I don't know that there's a perfect way to do this.

And it's not as if I'm hung up on this one. I started reading the first part of the DJ Bible and I'm feeling optimistic, although all I'll be doing at this point is making eye contact and saying hi to people, something I've never had a problem doing. I think that book assumes anyone who has trouble acquired women has no confidence. But there are some of us who have that part down but still have trouble. I'm giving this a shot though so I'll be doing every phase of the program.

 

[STR8UP]

I'm the type to want to try to make plans in advance, but you know another thing you can do that works?

Say you're sitting home bored on a Tuesday night at about 7pm. You think to yourself "Man, it would be great to have something to do tonight, and someONE to do it with".

Then grab your phone and go down the list. Call up the girl you want to hang out with the most. Say, "Hey, I'm going to a party/bar/concert/whatever tonite. You interested?"

Keep it short and sweet. It's a yes or no question. If you get anything but a "yes, give me the details", then you say "OK then....gotta run. Hit me up sometime. Bye." and repeat with the next one on your list.

I'm gonna start adopting this strategy more often. I tried this spur of the moment thing a few times and it works. Until a chick has proven herself to be reliable, she doesn't get more than a couple of hours notice. This way she has no opportunity to make plans with seven other people, and there's less of a chance that she will get distracted by a shiny object that throws her off course.

The first link Phyzzle provided gives great insight into what's going through a chicks head when she flakes. Basically, the feeling is there IN THAT MOMENT. You have to catch her THEN AND THERE, otherwsie your chances of getting stood up are much higher.

 

[jmeredi]

How do you guys usually handle a flake?

I'm on the fence about jumping in their sh!t over it or just letting it go and moving on.

Lately this friend of mine has been flaking majorly. Last week she called me to make plans, then flaked. Then I called her, we made plans, she flaked again. And on top of this she said she would help me out in my college classes since she's a tutor and she's flaked on that too. Also, she asked me to be a business partner with her. We got as far as the beginning stages of it and she pretty much just crapped out on me without saying anything. It's really disrespectful and I think she's spoiled by her parents.

What's weird is she took me on vacation with her last summer, she asked me to spend Christmas with her and her family, and has asked me to go on another vacation with her this summer. And when we do occasionaly hang out she's the bee's knees and we get along great.

She just seems to be a pathological flaker.

Thing is I'm not sure how to handle the situation. Would confronting her about it be AFC? Or would letting it go like it didn't bother me be a better move?

Any of you wise men have any Advice?

 

[armstrong]

How do you guys usually handle a flake?

I'm on the fence about jumping in their sh!t over it or just letting it go and moving on.

Lately this friend of mine has been flaking majorly. Last week she called me to make plans, then flaked. Then I called her, we made plans, she flaked again. And on top of this she said she would help me out in my college classes since she's a tutor and she's flaked on that too. Also, she asked me to be a business partner with her. We got as far as the beginning stages of it and she pretty much just crapped out on me without saying anything. It's really disrespectful and I think she's spoiled by her parents.

What's weird is she took me on vacation with her last summer, she asked me to spend Christmas with her and her family, and has asked me to go on another vacation with her this summer. And when we do occasionaly hang out she's the bee's knees and we get along great.

She just seems to be a pathological flaker.

Thing is I'm not sure how to handle the situation. Would confronting her about it be AFC? Or would letting it go like it didn't bother me be a better move?

Any of you wise men have any Advice?

Dude this sounds just like a female friend of mine, one I'm not romantically interested in. She'll say lets do such and such and then you never hear from her.

 

[drmeathead]

How do you guys usually handle a flake?

I'm on the fence about jumping in their sh!t over it or just letting it go and moving on.

Lately this friend of mine has been flaking majorly. Last week she called me to make plans, then flaked. Then I called her, we made plans, she flaked again. And on top of this she said she would help me out in my college classes since she's a tutor and she's flaked on that too. Also, she asked me to be a business partner with her. We got as far as the beginning stages of it and she pretty much just crapped out on me without saying anything. It's really disrespectful and I think she's spoiled by her parents.

What's weird is she took me on vacation with her last summer, she asked me to spend Christmas with her and her family, and has asked me to go on another vacation with her this summer. And when we do occasionaly hang out she's the bee's knees and we get along great.

She just seems to be a pathological flaker.

Thing is I'm not sure how to handle the situation. Would confronting her about it be AFC? Or would letting it go like it didn't bother me be a better move?

Any of you wise men have any Advice?

depends on the flake...if it is a full fledged stand up...**** her.

if she calls with no counter offer....**** her

if she calls with a counter offer....oh ok sure we will see...give me a call when (what ever the crisis she is in is over)

if she texts an explanation she gets either "oh" or "gotcha"

if she texts without an explanation she gets "fine"


regardless of the method of a flake notification, i put the ball in her court and just go on my way enjoying being me. if she calls great if she doesnt well thats great too

 

[jophil28]

Lately this friend of mine has been flaking majorly. Last week she called me to make plans, then flaked. Then I called her, we made plans, she flaked again. And on top of this she said she would help me out in my college classes since she's a tutor and she's flaked on that too. Also, she asked me to be a business partner with her. We got as far as the beginning stages of it and she pretty much just crapped out on me without saying anything. It's really disrespectful and I think she's spoiled by her parents.

She just seems to be a pathological flaker.

Mmmm! The comment about her being spoiled by her parents is probably at the heart of the problem. Women like this have the "princess" mindset. The rules of good manners and good behavior apparently do not apply to them. They see the world as comprised of people who are "useful" to them .
Unfortunately there are enough people around who will tolerate her bad behavior - this just gives it permission to continue.
Two ways to deal -
Either cut her out of your life entirely at the social level ,
OR set up a date and flake on her to give her some of her own medicine. The latter does NOT guarantee an epiphany on her part. Some spoiled child/women are immune to learning the lessons from their live experiences.

 

[Colossus]

How do you guys usually handle a flake?

I'm on the fence about jumping in their sh!t over it or just letting it go and moving on.

Lately this friend of mine has been flaking majorly. Last week she called me to make plans, then flaked. Then I called her, we made plans, she flaked again. And on top of this she said she would help me out in my college classes since she's a tutor and she's flaked on that too. Also, she asked me to be a business partner with her. We got as far as the beginning stages of it and she pretty much just crapped out on me without saying anything. It's really disrespectful and I think she's spoiled by her parents.

What's weird is she took me on vacation with her last summer, she asked me to spend Christmas with her and her family, and has asked me to go on another vacation with her this summer. And when we do occasionaly hang out she's the bee's knees and we get along great.

She just seems to be a pathological flaker.

Thing is I'm not sure how to handle the situation. Would confronting her about it be AFC? Or would letting it go like it didn't bother me be a better move?

Any of you wise men have any Advice?

Yes. STOP pursuing her, in any capacity.

I dont know if you have any sexual motives or hopes with this girl, but im guessing yes if you have been tolerating all this flaking.

Some women, no matter how well intentioned, are just terminal flakes. They cannot grasp the concepts of sacrifice and integrity, probably because they have been catered to and escaped accountability their whole lives.

Confronting her is unnecessary. Stop making plans with her. If she calls you to make plans or set something up, then agree (at your discretion), but if she flakes again DO NOT contact her. Dont answer her calls. Your actions will let her know that your time is important just like hers, and you will not tolerate further disrespect of your time.

My last and longest LTR was a terminal flake. She simply did not, could not respect my time and be courteous with communication. It left a very bad taste in my mouth, and my tolerance for this sh!t is very limited.

 

[synergy1]

For me the biggest indicator of flaking is quite simple; lack of counter offers. As one becomes seasoned, the bull**** starts to smell that much worse once you know what to look out for. From personal experience, I got the ' I am sick' excuse with no counter offer. The mark I was after at this point in time just quit her job and was looking for a new one, so in theory should have had plenty of time in order to hang out.

I am at the point in life where I work, and have minimal time off to screw around. When I sense a flake on the horizon, I halt pursuit and cut my losses. My questioned to veterans is this; how persistent or aloof should one be with women who appear somewhat flaky. In my most recent case, I was laying this women and she goes cold within a few weeks. At this point, I have moved on but always feel the need to take something out of it so I can learn for next time.