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The Legal Dangers of Marriage and Kids

classy broadside

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A man can appreciate the benefits of marriage - official and exclusive status as a couple, reinforced social expectations for the wife, and a guaranteed framework for raising kids. But there are many dangers in marriage that rosy lenses filter out, especially legal dangers.

First, some background. Women want marriage because it's a legal guarantee, backed by the coercive power of the state, of a man's obligation to her. A man can't pump-and-dump any more. A man can't be found with other mates without serious repercussions. A man must uphold his end of the "bargain".

The responsibilities, and liabilities, of marriage are heightened when kids come into the picture. Once a couple produces children, the ties are enhanced to the point of becoming chains.

In a marriage without kids, a man can't pack up and leave for greener pastures when five years down the road he finds his wife fat, wrinkled, with sagging breasts and a nagging attitude. Not unless he pays up first in divorce.

But when kids are produced, a man incurs an additional lifelong financial and social obligation, enforced by the power of the state, to kids who may sympathize with their mother and hate their father, the man.

We all, as men, more or less understand these principles and risks.

But there's more.

One of the most dangerous concepts that you've never heard of, but MUST CONSIDER BEFORE MARRIAGE, is the legal concept of "parentage by estoppel".

To illustrate what parentage by estoppel is, consider the following realistic hypothetical:

John and Jane Doe are unhappily married and haven't had sex in awhile. John doesn't want to divorce Jane because she'll take a chunk of his assets. John also thinks he still loves her to an extent.

Jane cheats on John with Mike. Jane becomes pregnant with Mike's baby. Jane tells Mike about their child. Mike wants nothing to do with the kid and disappears.

Jane then has sex with John a couple of weeks later after realizing her pregnancy. Jane then lies to John saying that John got her pregnant. John's happy that he is now a proud father.

Fast forward 2 years. Jane has given birth to Mike's healthy baby boy. John, oblivious to the truth, treats the boy as his own. But as the boy grows, he doesn't look anything like John. John and Jane have dark brown hair, but the baby's hair only got lighter and lighter until it's virtually blond. John becomes suspicious, but perhaps of denial or fear, he sits on the issue.

Months pass, until John couldn't take it anymore. He conducts a secret paternity test confirming that he is NOT the father to the boy. He angrily confronts Jane and tells her that he's not going to raise the bastard.

Jane, distraught, goes to court.

HERE IS WHERE YOU MUST PAY ATTENTION.

In court, John exclaims, "It's not my kid. The b!tch lied to me all this time. I've already paid my share of two years with a kid that's not mine! In all that's fair and just, you can't expect me to raise this bastard?!"

The court, following legal principles, rules AGAINST John. John is declared as the legal father by estoppel to the boy. John is now financially, socially, and legally responsible for all 18 years of this bastard's life after having been cheated on and treating the product of Jane's one-night-stand as his own.

The law is sympathetic to the child in this case, and enforces a doctrine known as the "best interests of the child". (Read: Not the best interests of, or what's just for the father). The rationale is that in the best interests of Mike's boy, he must have a father, especially since Mike disappeared and John has bonded with and treated the boy as his own. So the court decides that John is now the legal father to Mike's boy.

In short: If you unknowingly raise someone else's kid as your own, you're stuck with it for the next 18 years.

Lesson to be learned: Be very, very careful about who you date and marry. Trust your gut instinct. Don't lie to yourself. And don't let it get to the level of marriage, and especially pregnancy, unless you honestly have zero doubt about the woman you're with.

And if all else fails, if it's too late and you're in the delivery room right now, reading this, as your wife goes into labor, at least get a paternity test done when the kid comes out and before you start treating it as your own.
 

Aenigma

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Another reason not to get married in this country. I knew about this previously, and I told my ex-wife that I would get a paternity test for any kids produced. The thing is though, when you're legally bonded to a woman she can make your life a living hell, even when the kids are yours, and you're powerless to do anything about it.

When you're not bounded by the law you can at least use your time and attention as a weapon against a woman when she gets out of line and starts being a *****/using power plays. You can't use that in marriage. You have no negative reinforcement tools that you can use for behavior modification. You can't take your business elsewhere, you can't hit her with the paper when she pees on the floor, and you can't guilt or shame her- since most women have no internal moral compass. If you treat her like crap because she's doing it to you- well, you'll just get raped in the divorce. It's a lose-lose for a man.
 

classy broadside

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Is a pre-nup the right thing to do? Why marry a woman if you don't feel secure enough without one?

For contingency's sake? But why plan for a contingency when you can give yourself the drive to marry without one by keeping true to your manhood, trusting your instincts, and winnowing out all but one that you can definitely depend on?

It just isn't right to start a marriage by discussing the contingency of divorce.
 

jophil28

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classy broadside said:
It just isn't right to start a marriage by discussing the contingency of divorce.
That was true up until the women's "movement" started brainwashing women into believing that THEY were the prize and a man is " the enemy". Now women file for divorce in huge numbers for trivial reasons and believe that they are then entitled to his money as some kind of compensation. ???WTF ?

THat is why you need a prenup.

I was talking to the A/C guy a week ago . He is 60 years old.

I asked him," Ray, when did you last hear a woman say that she is DEVOTED to her husband ?"

HE replied (after thinking for a time ) ." About 30 years ago "

THat is why all men need to protect themselves against the craziness that has infected modern woman.

You see, women are gullible.
They were perfectly happy UNTIL Germaine Greer told them that were not. Then it all went to shyte after that, and 40 years later we have the inevitable outcome - record high divorce rates in all western countries.
 

classy broadside

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Danger said:
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. People change andso can your wife. Not getting a prenup is a BIG mistake.
True in some cases, but not an absolute standard.

Think of it this way:

When we're getting a job, do we tell the boss "Oh, by the way, let's talk about my severance package in case I quit"?

Is that the right way to start things off?

If you don't or can't trust a girl enough to need a pre-nup, why are you marrying her at all? What kind of signals are you sending her way that first day -- ones of mutual expectations of commitment and responsibility, or ones of failure? A pre-nup is a fear of commitment through thick and thin. Remember, this will set the tone for the rest of the relationship.

Just because a legal tool is there doesn't mean you should use it. Here, pre-nups are nothing more than a lawyer-concocted response to the starter marriage/disposable relationship/have-"fun"-and-quit-when-it's-not-"fun"-anymore phenomena.

What I'm saying is, screen carefully. Be patient. And don't hold back when it's time to commit.
 

classy broadside

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jophil28 said:
That was true up until the women's "movement" started brainwashing women into believing that THEY were the prize and a man is " the enemy". Now women file for divorce in huge numbers for trivial reasons and believe that they are then entitled to his money as some kind of compensation. ???WTF ?

THat is why you need a prenup.

I was talking to the A/C guy a week ago . He is 60 years old.

I asked him," Ray, when did you last hear a woman say that she is DEVOTED to her husband ?"

HE replied (after thinking for a time ) ." About 30 years ago "

THat is why all men need to protect themselves against the craziness that has infected modern woman.

You see, women are gullible.
They were perfectly happy UNTIL Germaine Greer told them that were not. Then it all went to shyte after that, and 40 years later we have the inevitable outcome - record high divorce rates in all western countries.
Excellent point. The response is simple: Don't date feminists. Be wary of Western women. Set your standards high. Then a pre-nup is moot.
 

sodbuster

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There are several reasons for a prenup. If she knows it going in it eliminates golddiggers. If she changes after the wedding, you still have the big stick. If not, she has no incentive to make it work.

At the ripe old age of 26,you have all the answers,but you've never seen the test. Talk to me in another 23 years.After you fall for her act and marry her,you'll get a chance to see the real woman. After kids and the 30 lbs that don't come off[come off fast after the divorce],lets see how much you are interested in sex with the cow who tries to run your life like she's used to doing with the kids.

I was an idealist before I was married. After the divorce, I'm a realist
 

jophil28

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classy broadside said:
If you don't or can't trust a girl enough to need a pre-nup, why are you marrying her at all?
Excellent point considering the trustworthiness of most western women.

I would despair if I were under 35 and considering marriage these days.
However I really like dating younger women,BUT their sense of entitlement disqualifies them as wives. They seem to think that marriage is going to be like one long date followed by a magic carpet ride financed by the lucky guy who is supposed to graciously sacrifice his own aspirations to fulfil her every whim.

I shudder at the prospect of what some of your guys are facing in the near future..
 

jophil28

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Leo Tolstoy wrote in Anna Karenina,

" All happy families resemble one another; but every unhappy family is unhappy in it's own fashion."

I agree. Too bad that marriage counselors can not grasp this simple reality..The reality is that there is an identifiable group of behaviors which produce successful marriages and a whole mish mash of other behaviors which will wreck a marriage. Success does not flow from some special or uniquely negotiated arrangement of convenience between each couple.
Loyalty, commitment, energetic involvement, and primacy, ALWAYS enhance relationships,especially marriage. These are but a few of a larger group of course.

As an aside, how many of you guys who are divorced felt that your ex wife displayed and lived out those qualities, that I just mentioned, in your marriage?

Yes, not my Ex either.
 

decades

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classy broadside said:
True in some cases, but not an absolute standard.

Think of it this way:

When we're getting a job, do we tell the boss "Oh, by the way, let's talk about my severance package in case I quit"?

Is that the right way to start things off?

If you don't or can't trust a girl enough to need a pre-nup, why are you marrying her at all? What kind of signals are you sending her way that first day -- ones of mutual expectations of commitment and responsibility, or ones of failure? A pre-nup is a fear of commitment through thick and thin. Remember, this will set the tone for the rest of the relationship.

Just because a legal tool is there doesn't mean you should use it. Here, pre-nups are nothing more than a lawyer-concocted response to the starter marriage/disposable relationship/have-"fun"-and-quit-when-it's-not-"fun"-anymore phenomena.

What I'm saying is, screen carefully. Be patient. And don't hold back when it's time to commit.

Please if you have substantial assets ALWAYS get a pre-nup. People change and you never really can know anyone or what they will do.
 

Ballie

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I'm pleased to hear that I am not the only one. When I married, she was my "sole mate" and we were very happy. Bliss in surburbia, 2 kids, 2 cars etc.

After a while that wasn't enough and she became disatisfied and the marriage imploded. I was screwed by the system but not too bad here in SA. Still managed to keep some of my hard earned money.

Met enough single mommies to steer well away from getting married again.

As a wise friend said "If you want milk? Why buy a cow" very true.
 

bigjohnson

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classy broadside said:
Is a pre-nup the right thing to do? Why marry a woman if you don't feel secure enough without one?

When she wants marriage she's ASKING for a legal contract. The prenup is your addendum to the contract she wants.
 

Luveno

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Marriage does not benefit the male in any way.

It benefits the woman in every way.

Thus, it is illogical for a man to marry. He will only incur loss of freedom, money, and time.
 

bigjohnson

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I'm not gonna raise my kids outside a marriage, so if I want progeny it benefits ME.
 

Luveno

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bigjohnson said:
I'm not gonna raise my kids outside a marriage, so if I want progeny it benefits ME.
Outside of subjective reasons like tradition, religion, and "all-American values", what objective benefits are there to being married?
 

bigjohnson

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Luveno said:
Outside of subjective reasons like tradition, religion, and "all-American values", what objective benefits are there to being married?
Not every life choice has to be backed by objective benefits. If that were the case life would be very drab indeed.
 

Warrior74

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bigjohnson said:
I'm not gonna raise my kids outside a marriage, so if I want progeny it benefits ME.
LOL. Good luck with that delusion. Hope you get some foreign woman because most american women aren't going for that.

Strike 1. She gets knocked up.

Strike 2. You refuse to consider marriage.

Strike 3. You get the DNA test and it's yours.

Your OUT! She takes you to court to rape you for child support. Gives you crap about seeing your kid and generally takes all of her misery out on you.


Yes you can get the milk for free, but the farmer gets mad when you drink the milk without paying for it. The farmer is her/the system/society/her family whatever you want to call it. And they are gonna hate you for 'ruining and taking advantage of a girl'

If she loves you and is having your kid she's gonna want marriage. No matter what you say or do, that's how they are programmed. When you refuse, it will cause all sort of hell with her self esteem and social standing. She becomes less in the eyes of society and someone has to be blamed. SHe can't blame herself, but it's acceptable to blame you. Watch that love turn to hate real quick. Take it from experience man. Wake up and get your plumbing sniped or adopt a kid on your own. But if you have a woman involved there is no peace with a child out of wedlock. WAKE UP!
 
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