It Passed

[Julius_Seizeher]

Welcome to the brave new world of government-controlled healthcare, folks.

After perhaps the greatest display of backroom arm-breaking and Chicago thug-style politics ever seen in the US Congress, yesterday's passing of the "comprehensive" health reform bill is surely a victory for parasites everywhere.

But conservatives, take heart. This is the BEST thing that could've happened for our ideology! When the public sees the IMMEDIATE results of passing this bill (ie: tax hikes across the board on every tax you can think of, basically), all the moderates and "Blue Dogs" will come back to us by the truckload!

This bill represents an unsettling precedent. An ancient philosopher warned that the eventual destruction of every democracy comes when one party usurps power by raiding the public treasury to buy the votes of non-producing citizens. It could be argued, we are seeing this now.

Make no mistake, this bill appeals only to those who practice the dubious profession of trying to get without giving. If you voted for these people, yet you scoff at the bums you see on the streets and at the mall, unfvck yourself! This is who you align yourself with!

Are you so eager to remove the fundamental principle of incentive from our way of life? Why should anybody work when having a job means paying 45% taxes while your buddy plays video games all day and has better health insurance than YOU! Incentive is the driving force of capitalism, liberals simply DO NOT GET IT but thankfully we still have real Americans who want to EARN their way in life!

There is nothing as unmanly as liberalism!

I was not put here to make sure everybody else is comfortable in their sloven cocoon, and I'm betting you weren't either!

If you are a MAN and you believe in MANLY things like PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, WORK ETHIC, CREATING VALUE and SELF-DETERMINATION, remind yourself of this the next time you vote!

 

[5string]

Agree with Julius. Health care is not a right all are entitled to. It's a product/service that you pay for or you don't. I don't have a problem with helping others, but this is just a give away program. You can bet I'll be voting in the next election. By the way, I know a gal, fully capable of working, who has been collecting unemployment for 2 yrs, gets 800/mo in foodstamps, is on medicaid and has one of her kids on SSI for another 300 plus per month. She sells part of her foodstamps at a discount for cash. This is all our tax money here I'm talking about. Just uneblievable. And I'm the schmuck who put himself through college, works 9-5 and pays for all this nonsense. Oh, by the way, the chick I just mentioned, she's also got sat TV, internet, etc.

 

[Alle_Gory]

An ancient philosopher warned that the eventual destruction of every democracy comes when one party usurps power by raiding the public treasury to buy the votes of non-producing citizens. It could be argued, we are seeing this now.

That happened a long time ago. Suddenly you realize this? What about all the wars, the spending on ridiculous military projects, the bailouts? But no, you complain when you get healthcare. At least you're going to see something out of this instead of money going into some rich man's pocket.

Why should anybody work when having a job means paying 45% taxes while your buddy plays video games all day and has better health insurance than YOU!

You could consider the soaring insurance costs a "tax".

If you are a MAN and you believe in MANLY things like PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, WORK ETHIC, CREATING VALUE and SELF-DETERMINATION, remind yourself of this the next time you vote!

Unfortunately with things like health its not so simple. You can't work your way out of a serious disease like for example cancer, or aids. Self-determination works for things that are in your control. Health sometimes isn't. You never know where you might get a disease if you don't already have a ticking time bomb in your genes already.

I know a gal, fully capable of working, who has been collecting unemployment for 2 yrs, gets 800/mo in foodstamps, is on medicaid and has one of her kids on SSI for another 300 plus per month. She sells part of her foodstamps at a discount for cash.

That's called abusing the system. It happens both for private and public institutions. Either way you would be getting screwed. If you were giving your money to a corporation, and she was a "customer", you would be paying a higher premium to offset her cost. Either way you're going to pay with insurance. You can either give it to the government or the private insurance companies who only want to make record profits every year. That means you give them money, you get sick, they say f*ck you we're not covering you, thanks for the money. No refunds.

 

[Alle_Gory]

Welcome to the brave new world of government-controlled healthcare, folks.

One more thing. Healthcare was always government controlled. There's laws and regulations that doctors and health care professionals must follow in order to be licensed.

 

[Plinco]

I think politicians have dug their proverbial grave a little deeper.

 

[Alle_Gory]

I think politicians have dug their proverbial grave a little deeper.

What are you going to do about it, tune into the next episode of American Idol?

:crackup:

 

[Plinco]

What are you going to do about it, tune into the next episode of American Idol?

:crackup:

me, personally, for starters I don't have a T.V. If I had one I would not watch it.

There are some things I do about it, mostly hand out anti-NWO propaganda DVD's (which also tend to be anti-big government).

EDIT:

Actually I do have a television, but it is stored away in a box.

 

[Bible_Belt]

If all this turns out to be a bad idea, and it will, the problem is that there is no going back. We are going to create another giant bureaucracy with thousands of new guvment jobs. When the new system becomes bankrupt, we will still cling to it, because no politician is going to be behind eliminating all of those jobs.

Right now in Illinois, the state is behind over two years on payments to doctors who treat patients with a "medical card," which is basically the same healthcare welfare that we are all about to be put on. Since the docs are not getting paid, they have mostly stopped accepting Med Card patients. You can only get the crappiest of care, and forget about ever getting in to see a specialist. But hey, it's free, right? Something for nothing?

The problem with an equal outcome system is that it pulls us all down to the least common denominator. When we split all the resources equally, all of us end up with just slightly more than nothing. It's like Castro's promise to the Cuban people as he led their revolution - he promised equality, and he delivered on that promise. Now everyone is equally poor.

 

[Forty0ztoFreedom]

Well, if I had some things I've been meaning to take care of under my current insurance . . Should I get on that sh*t now? What am I looking at for a time window??

I don't like the sound of this thing.

They use these shaming tactics . . whats next? Everyone should have a house, car, job, food, heating, electricity, internet? I mean should food companies be for profit?? WE NEED IT TO LIVE!! Free food for ALL.

 

[Rogue]

I work for the government determining Medicaid benefits for recipients. A person's health is their right and their access to healthcare fundamentally should be guaranteed, in a civilized society, if you ask me. Unfortunately, due to how the healthcare system stands currently, many people cannot afford health insurance, many are denied coverage for pre-existing conditions, many cannot afford the costs of healthcare even with insurance. Personal responsibility is a fallacious argument because people don't choose when and what diseases and ailments will kill them and their family members.

The health care bill would require most Americans to have health insurance, would add 16 million people to the Medicaid rolls and would subsidize private coverage for low- and middle-income people, at a cost to the government of $938 billion over 10 years, the Congressional Budget Office said. The bill would require many employers to offer coverage to employees or pay a penalty. Each state would set up a marketplace, or exchange, where consumers without such coverage could shop for insurance meeting federal standards. The budget office estimates that the bill would provide coverage to 32 million uninsured people, but still leave 23 million uninsured in 2019. One-third of those remaining uninsured would be illegal immigrants. The new costs, according to the budget office, would be more than offset by savings in Medicare and by new taxes and fees, including a tax on high-cost employer-sponsored health plans and a tax on the investment income of the most affluent Americans. Cost estimates by the budget office, showing that the bill would reduce federal budget deficits by $143 billion in the next 10 years, persuaded some fiscally conservative Democrats to vote for the bill (New York Times).

 

[speakeasy]

Welcome to the brave new world of government-controlled healthcare, folks.

It's funny that every industrial nation in the world except ours has "goverment controlled healthcare" and none of their citizens would trade their system for ours in a million years. If it was so awful, why aren't industrial Asian and European citizens asking to go back to a private system?

Guess what? That government controlled healthcare is why it cost a fraction as much for medicine in France than it does for the same thing in America. Their governments don't allow pharmaceutical companies to charge outrageous prices for drugs. Their governments regulate the price. Here it's the free market and they charge whatever the hell they want. And what are you going to do? Pay it or die of illness. What choice is that? The most powerful lobby in our country is the pharmaceutical industry and they have bought off our government so that it passes legislation in their favor. That's why we can't get any bill that controls the cost of health care. We are like the cattle, the corporations own the farm.

Now put the whole picture together. You also have powerful lobbies in agriculture that put the brakes on regulations that would make our food healthier. American diets are increasingly full of high fructose corn syrup, even in places where you wouldn't expect it, like bread. Our meat is more pumped up with steroids and anti-biotics than ever. We are eating genetically modified food that is banned in other countries. Now corporations lobby to keep us eating unhealthy food and fattening the population, then when everybody is sick, the corporations make massive profits off the healthcare and medicine. We, the common people are literally cash cows. And not only that, we are programmed from birth to fear any regulation of questionable corporate practices as communism and brainwashed to think that whatever is in the best interest of corporations is in the best interest of all of us. There is a reason that the pharmaceutical industry is the single most profitable industry, and at the same time the biggest lobbyist. THINK ABOUT THAT!

 

[f283000]

I'm just waiting to read about the details as time goes on. I heard of there being code in the language of the bill that would force the mark of the beast on Americans and forced vaccinations.

I know the didn't push for this bill because they actually care about people there is something more sinister behind this (besides that it will probably bankrupt the country).

 

[Strelok]

There's no place anymore where a man can work and have the benefits of it,sooner or later he will be asked to give his share to maintain someone else.
Im european,as you know most of the countries here have a public health system even more heavily than your will be,well no need to tell you that all the times i need cures i have two choices.

The first one is to wait the public system to check me in a couple of months if im lucky or sometime even six.
The second is to pay 40 to 200 euros to have the check and the cures in reasonable times,and yes i have to pay public health in any case,you can't just say "no sorry i'll take care about myself".

Needless to tell you that illegal immigrants,jobless people,former prisoners and many other people that didnt even spended a euro on it have the same priority of my grandfathers that payed taxes from decades,we are all equal didnt u knew?

I have nothing againts anybody,i just dont want to be treated the same of people that did nothing to improve society,just like i dont expect anybody to give me what i dont deserve.

 

[Alle_Gory]

There's no place anymore where a man can work and have the benefits of it,sooner or later he will be asked to give his share to maintain someone else.

You're doing that anyways with insurance. You're covering someone else and they're covering you. Should something happen to one of you, you don't have to pay an arm and a leg because everyone pitches in.

That's why the rates are so low compared to the payout. Because not everyone is going to need it... but you never know who is going to need it so everyone pays.

Needless to tell you that illegal immigrants,jobless people,former prisoners and many other people that didnt even spended a euro on it have the same priority of my grandfathers that payed taxes from decades,we are all equal didnt u knew?

Treating all patients equally is part of a doctor's duty. The Hippocratic oath, which is the foundation of modern medicine from way back in the 5th Century BC. This prevents things like preferential treatment.

If you're ok with preferrential treatment for your grandfather over some prisoners, would you be ok with preferential treatment for people the hospital deems important like say politicians or pop stars instead of your grandfather? It's the same thing. They contribute more according to your standards so they should be at the front of the line.

This is why the oath exists. Doctors figured out the problem centuries ago. In order to prevent abuse, everyone gets the same thing.

I heard of there being code in the language of the bill that would force the mark of the beast on Americans and forced vaccinations.

Are you serious?

 

[Stud]

You're doing that anyways with insurance. You're covering someone else and they're covering you. Should something happen to one of you, you don't have to pay an arm and a leg because everyone pitches in.

That's why the rates are so low compared to the payout. Because not everyone is going to need it... but you never know who is going to need it so everyone pays.

the difference is that the person covering you, is paying into the same system that you are. with this, people will be covering other people with tax dollars. about half of the american public does not pay any income taxes. guess which half of the american public is going to consume more "free" health insurance??

the worse part of this bill is the pressure that it puts on small businesses. company i own has over 25 employees (but are far from a big business by any means), therefore we are required to offer health insurance or pay a penalty. if i offer it, it will destroy my bank account, so my only alternative is to raise my rates and not offer any pay raises to my employees. assuming my end customer will pay, once i raise rates, one of two things could happen. my end customer would then have to raise his rates to his end customer, on and on until it ultimately gets passed on to you (the consumer). once this happens, you will nto be able to afford this common good, forcing you to raise minimum wage. the cycle will then repeat itself ad nausem until our currency is devalued to the equivalent to magic beans.

the other thing that could happen is if i offered health insurance is that i would have to raise my prices, but my end customer will not be able to pay, therefore rendering my services unneeded. the end customer will then outsource to a country that does not have regulations out the ying yang and government trying to control everything. my business will close and there will be 40 some people, out of a job, back to suck on the government teet.

as tough as it is to agree with conspiracy people, it seems like there is a vicious circle meant to keep people dependent on the government while they get our money.

 

[backbreaker]

shazzam!

 

[Colossus]

Agree with Julius. Health care is not a right all are entitled to.

Be careful with that thinking. I'm all for personal responsibility with many things, but getting sick or injured is rarely a choice. Say you found yourself with a lapse in coverage because of a job change, and you wife is diagnosed with a terminal illness during that time. No other carrier will take her now because of her illness, and you are stuck with the immensity of the costs. According to you, if you cant pay for coverage or find yourself in a tough spot, tough break and that's the way capitalism works.

No civilized 'free' nation can deny people treatment for something medically necessary. That leaves us with the burden of cost for those who cant pay, in addition to the expectation from the people to receive the "best" care for everything...or else they sue the practitioner. So the practitioners run all sorts of tests and procedures that may not be totally necessary, further driving up costs. It's a complicated web.

 

[Rogue]

Stud:
About half of the american public do not pay any income taxes. Guess which half of the American public is going to consume more "free" health insurance??

But they still pay federal taxes through payroll taxes, Medicare, Social Security, and excise taxes. "The Congressional Budget Office found that earners in the lowest quintile, where most of those with no income tax liability fall, shouldered 4.3 percent of the payroll tax burden in 2005 and 11.1 percent of the excise taxes. Their effective tax rate (which is calculated by dividing taxes paid by total income) in those categories, according to the CBO, was in fact significantly higher than the rate of the top quintile, although that top one-fifth of the population had a much higher effective tax rate for individual and corporate income taxes" (source).

The worse part of this bill is the pressure that it puts on small businesses. company i own has over 25 employees (but are far from a big business by any means), therefore we are required to offer health insurance or pay a penalty. if i offer it, it will destroy my bank account, so my only alternative is to raise my rates and not offer any pay raises to my employees.

You get an immediate 35% tax credit for premiums and 50% beginning in 2014 (source).

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

If you take a step back, this is just like any other big government program. More benefits to more people. And that only means more money taken from more people. Call them what you want, rich people,businesses, wealthy, tax credits, flim flam, whatever.

All those new health benefits are going to cost money, that the government is taking from taxpayers, and deciding how to spend it.

People get elected to political office by promising things to people that they can get without much effort. And they more they give to people, the more they claim it as a "fundamental human right." And the more they need to promise in the next round of elections.

It's hard to get elected with the promise:

"I will allow you the freedom to sink or swim on your own."


Here's a harsh truth: Baby boomers will begin retiring en masse, very shortly, and the cost of health care for them will be astronomical. Huge. Most of the money you spend/require for health care will be in the last years/months of life.

If you think the debt is big now, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Within a generation, America is gonna be one broke a$$ country.

This video, is an interview with comptroller general of the US. He says the U.S. is pretty much fukked.