Doing business with women. Dating women. Same rules apply.

[Mr. Me]

I'm in the wedding business and so, I deal primarily with brides-to-be. Typically, women aged in their 20's to 30's. What I've found is that dealing with them in business uses pretty much the same concepts as dealing with them in dating. That's because they tend to do the same things.

For example, right now I have a gal who's not a client, but she was referred to me. She's seen my work, she's heard good things about my work from people she knows who have used my services, she likes my work. We could say that's similar to my having social proof in her eyes.

She contacts me. Okay, that's her making eye contact.

My first task is to get her interested enough to make an appointment. That's like me working her psychology to get to the first date.

She doesn't get back to me. That's like a girl... not getting back to you. So, I wait a few days and follow up, don't get her in, but then she returns my call but not at the number I told her I would be at, and asks me to give her a call. Her leaving a message at the wrong number is like a red flag, indicating that she makes it look like she's making the right moves but in reality avoiding me. That's like when a girl is, say, texting you.

She's not in to take the return call she said she'd be in to take. That's flaking.

I don't bother further, just as in dating.

A week later, I get an email - after business hours, which could also be her avoiding direct contact - apologizing for not being in (of course, why did it take a week to get back to me in this day and age?) and asking me to call again at another specific time. Now, I write her back and tell her my schedule doesn't permit it for that day and time. Just as in dating. I reason that if she's really interested, she'll try to make it happen by contacting me soon.

But she doesn't. Now, TWO weeks go by. I happen to book one of her friends by coincidence (her friend also was handled like it was a dating scenario. Getting the contract is like sealing the deal!). That very night, after office hours again when she knows I'm closed and so doesn't have to deal with me directly, she emails me asking if I'll be in on Saturday (which is half a week away) so that she may call me. I see this as the same as before: I'm in the wedding business, weddings take place mostly on Saturdays. She's picking the one day out of seven that I'm most likely not to be around to take a call, instead of simply calling me during a break or lunch hour or right before or after work on a regular business day.

So I write her back to tell her Saturday's not good for me. Period. No other information. Run silent. Leave a void to see if she fills it. Not make myself too available nor her doormat. Just as I would in dating.

And why is she getting back to me if she's not taking any action? Let me ask this instead: Why do girls you'd like to date call you after not hearing from them for some while with a poor excuse for not calling all that time... only to announce their intention to call you... several days from now... when they could just call and talk with you and take care of business? Because they want to keep you in their orbit while they check out other possibly bigger, better options (the competition) and [some] don't want you to think badly of them that they're being rude.

Just like in dating!

What you learn in business about dealing with women can be used in dating them. And vice versa.

 

[thedeparted]

I think the biggest parallel is that women in business, dating, and everywhere else act WITHOUT ACCOUNTABILITY when they treat men badly. The common thread is that these women no longer care to behave respectfully or treat others as equals and instead just do what they FEEL LIKE to validate their own emotional state of mind. It feels good for her to call you and think about a wedding and get a reply so she keeps doing it. She's probably doing the same thing with her fiancee on the other end.

"Yes, honey, I *tried* to talk to the wedding guy but he's just so hard to reach."

In both business and dating it's best to weed these losers out at the start and not waste your time.

Hope you don't take her call again!

 

[ketostix]

Great point Mr. Me. Women don't separate business from dating. To women, being unaccountable and irresponsible and succeeding anyway is very expedient whether it's in business or dating.

I think the biggest parallel is that women in business, dating, and everywhere else act WITHOUT ACCOUNTABILITY when they treat men badly. The common thread is that these women no longer care to behave respectfully or treat others as equals and instead just do what they FEEL LIKE to validate their own emotional state of mind. It feels good for her to call you and think about a wedding and get a reply so she keeps doing it. She's probably doing the same thing with her fiancee on the other end.

"Yes, honey, I *tried* to talk to the wedding guy but he's just so hard to reach."

In both business and dating it's best to weed these losers out at the start and not waste your time.

Hope you don't take her call again!

Yep, they need to be held accountable and weeded out. This is why it's not right for most women to be allowed to deal in business. A good case could be made for them not to be allowed to call the shots in dating too, but I think if we fix the former the latter will fix itself .

 

[MikeEdward1973]

Mr. Me, I'm going to disagree here.

I think that closing business is different than dating. And I think treating them as the same is costing you business.

For instance, she may be emailing you after hours because that when she's home from work. And she might be requesting Saturday because that's when she's available.

But this is a very interesting topic. I manage teams that sell enterprise software, and I think there are some analogies that hold between sales and dating.

Now, it is true that most of the people we sell to are IT execs, who are mostly male. And the women that we do work with are a bit different. But they're not that different, and it's a trap to think so.

I think your prospect is showing buy signs, and you should Always Be Closing. You're right. She's probably shopping other products and vendors. But I think it's a mistake to opt out of that bake-off.

Now, in dating, the logic would be that by chasing her like the rest, you're turning yourself into a commodity. So, perhaps this does hold true also in the bridal business, where the only differentiator is price, if products and services are all very similar. And therefore, by not chasing her, you are building up your cache in her eyes. In my space, there are profound differences between different software applications, so we're very eager to get into a demo, since we feel we'll win.

The point being here is the if we hear from a prospect that wants to see the application, and we know they have the size and resources to purchase, we'll go with it. Even if they've flaked out on us before, and even if it's a women.

 

[Mr. Me]

"Yes, honey, I *tried* to talk to the wedding guy but he's just so hard to reach."

Yes, I think that happens too. In dating, that would be akin to the feigned innocent: "I told him I had a boyfriend, but things just happened!"

In both business and dating it's best to weed these losers out at the start and not waste your time.

Yes, it's called "qualifying your leads" and eliminating time wasters.

she may be emailing you after hours because that when she's home from work. And she might be requesting Saturday because that's when she's available.

Could be, and that is what she now claims... but okay, all the same, I'm sure she's not shut off from the rest of the world during working hours. Then why just be shut off when it comes to me? If they're REALLY interested, they somehow find the time to call you. Just like in dating. So I'm creating an environment where I can better see her interest level - and see if it exists.

In this case, she's already "flaked" by not keeping the "telephone date" that she asked for, so for me to tie up Saturday afternoon expecting her call, may just serve to tie up my time and make me look extremely available - especially given that Saturdays are supposed to be when I'm busy on the job (and in dating, I wouldn't be available for Saturday because that's when I'd be busy with my main priorities and if I'm demonstrating that I have nothing going on, that can lessen my demand).

Basically, what I'm doing here, in sales is called "The Takeaway". That's what you do in personal relationships when you're being taken for granted. I'm not being as readily available anymore. Whether business or dating, the "takeaway" implies the probability of loss, which hopefully then triggers the other party to "act now" and at the very least, helps to re-establish equality and balance in the sales - or dating - relationship.

perhaps this does hold true also in the bridal business, where the only differentiator is price, if products and services are all very similar.

That is true of any industry, though I will tell you that part of my success is because I have intentionally put other differentiators in place so that any price comparisons becomes like comparing apples and oranges.

And the dating simile there would be "don't be like all the other guys".

we'll go with it. Even if they've flaked out on us before, and even if it's a women.

That's simply persistence. I know guys who keep calling their prospects every other day until the prospect tells them to f#ck off. Yeah, once in a while they'll get the contract that way, but I can't help but think it's because the prospect was sold on them already. You can't convince a person against their will. Do that and they get buyer's remorse and cancel anyway.

That's like the guy who wants the girl and keeps calling her while she stalls him because she just can't say "no". May even agree to a date, but then flakes on him.

Update: so this one emails me this morning (see, she has time to do that...) asking if I can call her one night next week. So I would think the whole push comes to shove with me making that "date" with her.

 

[MoveYourAss...]

There is a difference between selling a proper product and selling a "personal" service, which in case of wedding might include sense of style, creativity and so on, in one word: personality.

If I buy your software, I just want the best for my purpose for the best price. And I only have contact to you once or so. It's not that I really have to deal with you / trust / respect you personally. Great to meet great people and have a good time, of course, but not necessary.

It's like a one-night-stand.

My experience (in person-involved service):
show persistence, this is simply professional
Don't push too hard. Telling your USP is great, but if they wander around to window shop your competetors, let them. The ones that come back to you after that are your best clients. Same to chicks.

This would be the FB / LTR.

 

[thedeparted]

I actually sell software and the dating metaphor works pretty well. There is a congruent aspect to sales for every aspect of dating, from social proof and being the prize to the takeway and sunsetting horizons. And of course being different and better than all the rest. In my case, I only focus on the motivated customer b/c I'm too small to chase every lead, and a 5 in the bank beats a ten in the ..... whatever

 

[MikeEdward1973]

There is a difference between selling a proper product and selling a "personal" service, which in case of wedding might include sense of style, creativity and so on, in one word: personality.

If I buy your software, I just want the best for my purpose for the best price. And I only have contact to you once or so. It's not that I really have to deal with you / trust / respect you personally. Great to meet great people and have a good time, of course, but not necessary.

It's like a one-night-stand.

This actually isn't accurate.

Our average sale price starts at $500,000, up to about $2,000,000. So our prospects are, generally speaking, Fortune 1000 companies.

This means that, before they purchase, they want case studies, customer references, and on-site proof-of-concepts. The net result is that the average sales cycle is between 6 months on the low end, up to 2 years.

Moreover, when a new customer signs on, they sign a maintenance agreement, which is typically 20% of the list price. So the support team needs to have the long-term confidence of the enterprise they'll be supporting.

So trust, respect, and a thorough sense of mutual understanding is indeed a pre-requisite of closing deals of this size. The 'dating' analogy totally breaks down in this situation. We sell to win, not to play games.

 

[MoveYourAss...]

Mike, I agree with you.

I was simplifying in order to get a point across. I took "product sales" as a guy in the department store selling me a new razor or whatever.

So, in your case, you need trust & understanding for a professional long-term commitment. Still I would consider your product (+service) rather as a FB / regular hooker thing (no offense intended here!), because what "you" would do for me is a job. You offer me a solution for a problem I have. If I like you, that's only better, and might well give you an extra advantage over your competetors and increase the probability of a professional long-term "relationship", e.g. "FB".

But I do not insist on a a deeper level mutual energy flow as I would in an LTR and a long-term service-provider, like a teacher or coach.

Hell, maybe that's just me

 

[classy broadside]

Negotiations too!

The same thing happens when you negotiate. With men, you can talk rationally. With women... well, here's an example from real life:

(Negotiation over settlement; she is opposing counsel)

Me: Your client has a much weaker position. He's a convicted drug dealer, and ran off to another state with the kids. There's no way my client can allow joint custody with a guy like this, and the court won't like it either.

Her: Oh! Who's calling names now? You just called my client a dope addict!

Me: ...(Thinking: You've got to be kidding me!) Nobody called anyone names. I'm just pointing out your client's history with drugs. That doesn't make for a good role model or caregiver.

Her: Well, think about the kids! They want a dad, and you shouldn't take the dad away from them. Think about their best interests!

Me: (Thinking: This is so transparent, it's pitiful.) I've laid out my client's position. I'm still waiting to hear yours.

(Eventually, negotiations broke down because she wasn't talking reason. So we're going to court even though her client's a convicted drug dealer, who kidnapped the kids and crossed four state lines, and suffers from depression. She's still convinced she's got a bullet-proof case.)

Lesson learned: I love negotiating with women 99% of the time. As long as you can see through their game and (lack of) strategy, you're set.

 

[Mr. Me]

Doing business with women follows the same principles as when dating them. Because they're still women regardless and work the same way. Update:

Business: Rather then back and forth emails or phone convos, I implied a busy schedule, suggested to meet up for a consultation.
The Dating Equivalent: Instead of endless text messages, IMs, phone calls, emails... I was a little hard to get, being busy, and invited her out for a specific date and time.

Business: She said yes and kept it. Didn't flake. Shows she's interested.
The Dating Equivalent: She said yes and kept it. Didn't flake. Shows she's interested.

Business: She had been shopping others in the meantime.
The Dating Equivalent: There's other guys she met in the meantime.

Business: But there were some USPs I put into place that brought her back to me.
The Dating Equivalent: I'm different then the other guys and that appealed to her enough to keep her interested.

Business: I conducted my tried and true sales presentation.
The Dating Equivalent: I purposefully said and did all the right things.

Business: I then asked for the sale.
The Dating Equivalent: I went for the close.

Business: Got the contract.
The Dating Equivalent: Looks like there'll be a second date.