Carried the message to deaf ears.

[jophil28]

Last night I dropped into a local men's group weekly meeting. This is one of those groups for guys who are divorced, getting a divorce, or who really should gert one, but are avoiding the hoops and hurdles of the process..
Anyways, the 'facilitators' ( X three) all mentioned that "men need to embrace their masculinity" and "what it means to be a man". In fact, it was those phrases which I first saw in their flyer and that sparked my initial interest in this group..

So there were about 20 guys there aged from about 30 to over 60 years old.
Almost to a man, they were totally lost and confused about why their intimate relationships failed or were failing.
The #1 facilitator (lets call him M) is a local clinical psychologist and counselor. THis is the same guy who, at a previous meeting, suggested that I may have Asperger's because I was outspoken and apparently I " had a poor grasp of social requirements "... I might also mention that this guy is also obese and recently divorced for the second time.

The short of it was that most guys in the meeting believed that their marriages failed because they were not "enough"..not rich enough, sensitive enough, not understanding enough or not compliant enough. They mostly agreed that they did not "supply" enough to keep the little woman happy and, consequently her unhappiness was due to their ( his) "selfishness".
These guys really believed that they needed to "please her" more and that they were guilty of neglect to the extent that it crashed their marriage..

When the "talking stick " came around to me I said, " Gentlemen, I have two questions for all of you who are divorced or about to be so. Firstly, would you say that your wife made your marriage her priority. Were YOU the "main event" in her life. Did you KNOW that she would always be on your side, and by your side in difficult times." ( THis seemed to trigger a startled, but frozen response - bug eyed describes it best )

I continued, " Thinking about those times when you and she had different wants and different ideas about how a particular situation needed to be handled, would you say that most times, what she wanted, or your wants carried the most weight .
Who gave way, and who got their way most times ?
( More glassy eyed startled looks ...).

So then some of these men started telling the meeting the usual chump stuff. "Happy wife - happy life...blah blah... "
The head psych guy was nodding and I was just smirking at the stupidity of it all because all these guys were in trouble in their marriages BUT they were defending their actions and their philosphies fiercely.

I may go back next week , but I am not sure why.

 

[piranha45]

haha, and here on the forum we still get tons of guys who refuse advice and persist in afc'ism, after asking for help, despite the efforts of 20 dj's.

that's an interesting anecdote though and im glad you shared.

 

[Warrior74]

as one famous poster said...it's hard work unplugging chumps from the matrix. I think you went because you secretly want to start a fight club.haha.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

The most effective social conventions are ones in which the subject willingly sublimates his own interests, discourages questioning it, and predisposes that person to encourage the convention with others. This is the essence of the Matrix; anything can become normal.

This pretty much sums up the entirety of the problem - masculinity has been redefined by people (men and women) who have no concept of what it's original definition was. The behaviors and characteristics that constitute what is uniquely masculine aren't being challenged; they've been redefined to fit the purposes of an agenda. This feminization serves many interests, and because it has become normalized, people internalize it, use it, reinforce it and broadcast it to others often without ever knowing they are. Furthermore these fellows still cling to the social convention in spite of repeated failures. An AFC's only critical self-analysis is limited to how they 'performed' within the social convention, never the convention itself.

I know I lock horns with you on many issues JOPHIL, but not this one. It's triagé; save the ones you can, read last rites to the dying. I hope you go back for the one or two you might be able to unplug.

 

[speed dawg]

The #1 facilitator (lets call him M) is a local clinical psychologist and counselor. THis is the same guy who, at a previous meeting, suggested that I may have Asperger's because I was outspoken and apparently I " had a poor grasp of social requirements "... I might also mention that this guy is also obese and recently divorced for the second time.

My question is, don't these guys see right off the bat that they're listening to the wrong guy? I mean, if they want to go somewhere to have people listen and feel sorry for them and reinforce their beliefs, this is the place to go it seems. But not if they want to identify what their problems are. This is like going to the gym and getting personal training sessions from a fat guy. What could be more damn ignorant than taking relationship advice from a multiple divorcee?????

The short of it was that most guys in the meeting believed that their marriages failed because they were not "enough"..not rich enough, sensitive enough, not understanding enough or not compliant enough. They mostly agreed that they did not "supply" enough to keep the little woman happy and, consequently her unhappiness was due to their ( his) "selfishness".........These guys really believed that they needed to "please her" more and that they were guilty of neglect to the extent that it crashed their marriage................"Happy wife - happy life...blah blah... "

It just makes you want to pull out a machine gun.....well that's probably going overboard. I would probably feel too sorry for them to actually point it.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Jophil,
Proud of you Son,you may lead the Horse to water,but you can't make him drink....Keep on Punching Mate,several guys will be listening,they will go home and think of your words,If you save just one,it's worth it.As for Aspergers,well they put Einstein in that one,You are in fine company,Psychiatry is a bogus Science.

 

[samspade]

The short of it was that most guys in the meeting believed that their marriages failed because they were not "enough"..not rich enough, sensitive enough, not understanding enough or not compliant enough. They mostly agreed that they did not "supply" enough to keep the little woman happy and, consequently her unhappiness was due to their ( his) "selfishness".
These guys really believed that they needed to "please her" more and that they were guilty of neglect to the extent that it crashed their marriage..

With all of these guys, a small part of them may actually believe this. But I think most of it is them kidding themselves. A lot of AFC's will "take the blame" when a woman leaves him or loses interest in him. Why? I think they actually believe they can revise history so they don't look like AFCs, and so that they can look more like their twisted version of what a DJ must be.

It's a lot easier for an AFC to say, "she left me because I wasn't always understanding and I was selfish" than to say, "I was a huge wussbag who gave her TOO much attention and TOO much compliance, and got little in return." They are attempting to come across as at least partially indifferent, when the complete opposite is obviously true. Their egos aren't listening to their subconscious, which is telling them that their women were bored with and lost respect for them as men.

Not only that, but they believe that if they are the at-fault party, all they need to do is work on themselves and make changes and perhaps they can resuscitate the relationship - giving them an excuse to continue chasing the woman who has moved on.

One of the biggest steps on the road to recovery is admitting fully the error of your AFC ways. A lot of guys will never do that.

 

[Luthor Rex]

I said, " Gentlemen, I have two questions for all of you who are divorced or about to be so. Firstly, would you say that your wife made your marriage her priority. Were YOU the "main event" in her life. Did you KNOW that she would always be on your side, and by your side in difficult times." ( THis seemed to trigger a startled, but frozen response - bug eyed describes it best )

I continued, " Thinking about those times when you and she had different wants and different ideas about how a particular situation needed to be handled, would you say that most times, what she wanted, or your wants carried the most weight .
Who gave way, and who got their way most times ?
( More glassy eyed startled looks ...).

I like what you said here because you came to in a diplomatic way. You didn't say "your wives were b!tches" and at the same time you didn't say "you men were doormats". At least, not directly.

 

[trajhenkhet02]

For the next time a debate opportunity comes up, may I suggest the following from Dr. Carl Segan - The Baloney Detection Kit

http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html

 

[jophil28]

An AFC's only critical self-analysis is limited to how they 'performed' within the social convention, never the convention itself.

.

And that describes exactly their collective mindset BEFORE I spoke.
They all believed (including fat Psych guy ) that a "man" is a "man" when he submits to being a pack animal for his woman ( my words for their expressed belief). IT seems that a 'man' is supposed to be her slave , her servant and in many ways, her domestic employee. His existence is destiny - to 'attend' to her, and of course , the children.

However, they all reported poor disrespectful treatment from their women and this is where their confused thinking kicked in. They cannot reconsile her actions. They believed that she acted badly because HE did not do enough of her bidding and not because his compliance lowered her respect for him..

It truly NEVER occured to any of them that their abdication of male leadership and male compliance rather than dominance waa behind their marriage woes.

YEah, I will go back and try to toss a few of them a life-preserver.

 

[horaholic]

Good for you. Maybe you can close down this "AFC school" of theirs and open their eyes to "man school"

 

[WaterTiger]

Jophil! You need to put out your OWN flyers and hold your OWN meetings! Get the truth out there! Women are born with pvssys! Why would we want to marry one?

Go back next week with thast 25 year old dance partner of yours and show these poor guys how it's DONE!

 

[jophil28]

Jophil! You need to put out your OWN flyers and hold your OWN meetings! Get the truth out there! Women are born with pvssys! Why would we want to marry one?

Go back next week with thast 25 year old dance partner of yours and show these poor guys how it's DONE!

Gee I am tempted to do that.

Here is a funny story. When I arrived at the meeting last week we were all asked to walk out into the carpark and line up single file according to age.
I ask the youngest 'facilitator' why we were doing this . He answered, "Because that gives us all an opportunity to see the collective and individual wisdom that we have here. The younger guys can then access the knowledge that the older guys have accumulated."

I replied," All the men here have failed or troubled relationships don't they? That is why they are here ?"

He agreed, and I continued, " So where is this alleged wisdom. These guys are clueless."

He gave me that look that said ," Jophil is gonna be trouble."

 

[guru1000]

When the "talking stick " came around to me I said, " Gentlemen, I have two questions for all of you who are divorced or about to be so. Firstly, would you say that your wife made your marriage her priority. Were YOU the "main event" in her life. Did you KNOW that she would always be on your side, and by your side in difficult times." ( THis seemed to trigger a startled, but frozen response - bug eyed describes it best )

I continued, " Thinking about those times when you and she had different wants and different ideas about how a particular situation needed to be handled, would you say that most times, what she wanted, or your wants carried the most weight .
Who gave way, and who got their way most times ?

Funny isn't it?

A man will go through 16+years of education, work 12-15 hour days, have the work ethic of a horse only to compromise his livelihood in ignoring his most precious asset, himself.