Yes means Yes (no) passes

Stagger Lee

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This is so ridiculous and extremist. Anyone knows that women generally dislike to be asked verbally and explicitly if they want to have sex, and want it to be just left up in the air and for the male to just be able to tell. And the ideal that if the female is intoxicated then she can't give consent is also ridiculous. Everyone knows that college students drink all the time when socializing and women intentionally drink to lower their inhibition. If no one could give consent after drinking then pretty much no sex would be happening.

You can bet that this will be enforced even beyond the wording of the law as is usually the case. What will they come up with next to further make males a lower class of citizen to females?

Having the government dictate how people should behave in sexual encounters is a terrible idea



The campus crusade against rape has achieved a major victory in California with the passage of a so-called “Yes means yes” law. Unanimously approved by the state Senate yesterday after a 52-16 vote in the assembly on Monday, SB967 requires colleges and universities to evaluate disciplinary charges of sexual assault under an “affirmative consent” standard as a condition of qualifying for state funds. The bill’s supporters praise it as an important step in preventing sexual violence on campus. In fact, it is very unlikely to deter predators or protect victims. Instead, its effect will be to codify vague and capricious rules governing student conduct, to shift the burden of proof to (usually male) students accused of sexual offenses, and to create a disturbing precedent for government regulation of consensual sex.

No sane person would quarrel with the principle that sex without consent is rape and should be severely punished. But while sexual consent is widely defined as the absence of a “no” (except in cases of incapacitation), anti-rape activists and many feminists have long argued that this definition needs to shift toward an active “yes.” Or, as the California bill puts it:


““Affirmative consent” means affirmative, conscious, and voluntary agreement to engage in sexual activity. … Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent.

The law’s defenders, such as feminist writer Amanda Hess, dismiss as hyperbole claims that it would turn people into unwitting rapists every time they have sex without obtaining an explicit “yes” (or, better yet, a notarized signature) from their partner. Hess points out that consent can include nonverbal cues such as body language. Indeed, the warning that “relying solely on nonverbal communication can lead to misunderstanding,” included in the initial draft of the bill, was dropped from later versions. Yet even after those revisions, one of the bill’s co-authors, Democratic Assemblywoman Bonnie Lowenthal, told the San Gabriel Valley Tribune that the affirmative consent standard means a person “must say ‘yes.’ ”

Nonverbal cues indicating consent are almost certainly present in most consensual sexual encounters. But as a legal standard, nonverbal affirmative consent leaves campus tribunals in the position of trying to answer murky and confusing questions — for instance, whether a passionate response to a kiss was just a kiss, or an expression of “voluntary agreement” to have sexual intercourse. Faced with such ambiguities, administrators are likely to err on the side of caution and treat only explicit verbal agreement as sufficient proof of consent. In fact, many affirmative-consent-based student codes of sexual conduct today either discourage reliance on nonverbal communication as leaving too much room for mistakes (among them California’s Occidental College and North Carolina’s Duke University) or explicitly require asking for and obtaining verbal consent (the University of Houston). At Pennsylvania’s Swarthmore College, nonverbal communication is allowed but a verbal request for consent absolutely requires a verbal response: If you ask, “Do you want this?”, you may not infer consent from the mere fact that your partner pulls you down on the bed and moves to take off your clothes.

Meanwhile, workshops and other activities promoting the idea that one must “ask first and ask often” and that sex without verbal agreement is rape have proliferated on college campuses.

The consent evangelists often admit that discussing consent is widely seen as awkward and likely to kill the mood — though they seem to assume that the problem can be resolved if you just keep repeating that such verbal exchanges can be “hot,” “cool,” and “creative.” It’s not that talk during a sexual encounter is inherently a turn-off — far from it. But there’s a big difference between sexy banter or endearments, and mandatory checks to confirm you aren’t assaulting your partner (especially when you’re told that such checks must be conducted “in an ongoing manner”). Most people prefer spontaneous give-and-take and even some mystery, however old-fashioned that may sound; sex therapists will also tell you that good sex requires “letting go” of self-consciousness. When ThinkProgress.com columnist Tara Culp-Ressler writes approvingly that under affirmative consent “both partners are required to pay more attention to whether they’re feeling enthusiastic about the sexual experience they’re having,” it sounds more like a prescription for overthinking.

Of course anyone who believes that verbal communication about consent is essential to healthy sexual relationships can preach that message to others. The problem is that advocates of affirmative consent don’t rely simply on persuasion but on guilt-tripping (one handout stresses that verbal communication is “worth the risk of embarrassment or awkwardness” since the alternative is the risk of sexual assault) and, more importantly, on the threat of sanctions.

Until now, these sanctions have been voluntarily adopted by colleges; SB-967 gives them the backing of a government mandate. In addition to creating a vaguely and subjectively defined offense of nonconsensual sex, the bill also explicitly places the burden of proof on the accused, who must demonstrate that he (or she) took “reasonable steps … to ascertain whether the complainant affirmatively consented.” When the San Gabriel Valley Tribune asked Lowenthal how an innocent person could prove consent under such a standard, her reply was, “Your guess is as good as mine.”

Meanwhile, Culp-Ressler reassures her readers that passionate trysts without explicit agreement “aren’t necessarily breaches of an affirmative consent standard,” since, “if both partners were enthusiastic about the sexual encounter, there will be no reason for anyone to report a rape later.” But it’s not always that simple. One of the partners could start feeling ambivalent about an encounter after the fact and reinterpret it as coerced — especially after repeatedly hearing the message that only a clear “yes” constitutes real consent. In essence, advocates of affirmative consent are admitting that they’re not sure what constitutes a violation; they are asking people to trust that the system won’t be abused. This is not how the rule of law works.

This is not a matter of criminal trials, and suspension or even expulsion from college is not the same as going to prison. Nonetheless, having the government codify a standard that may implicitly criminalize most human sexual interaction is a very bad idea.

Such rules are unlikely to protect anyone from sexual assault. The activists often cite a scenario in which a woman submits without saying no because she is paralyzed by fear. Yet the perpetrator in such a case is very likely to be a sexual predator, not a clueless guy making an innocent mistake — and there is nothing to stop him from lying and claiming that he obtained explicit consent. As for sex with an incapacitated victim, it is already not only a violation of college codes of conduct but a felony.

Many feminists say that affirmative consent is not about getting permission but about making sure sexual encounters are based on mutual desire and enthusiasm. No one could oppose such a goal. But having the government dictate how people should behave in sexual encounters is hardly the way to go about it.

Cathy Young is a contributing editor at Reason magazine.
 

logicallefty

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Talk about a mood killer for both men and women. WOW.
 

( . )( . )

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RAPE CULTCHA!!!

Is anyone even still buying there's an epidemic of white college dudes raping chicks en masse? Most of these emasculated cuck candidates barely have the testosterone levels needed for sustained eye contact with a chick now. If anything this is more of a projection of wishful thinking by bored white women wishing their men weren't total beta cucks......With as per usual a little nudge from our Marxist handlers to further widen the gap between the sexes by the looks of things. Wouldn't want that traditional family to form would we :nono:

This sh!t has become so transparent now you would laugh if it wasn't so diabolically insane.

Meanwhile in Rotherham and Sweden *crickets*
 

zekko

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Did we really need a tougher rape law? Is there any surprise this is the kind of BS law that gets passed in ultraliberal California?

the bill also explicitly places the burden of proof on the accused, who must demonstrate that he (or she) took “reasonable steps … to ascertain whether the complainant affirmatively consented
Fvck it. Let's just legally require the girl to sign a frigging consent form before any sexual contact. Thing is, that still won't settle it because the girl could claim she was drunk when she signed it, and that absolves her of all responsibility.

I swear to you the level of insanity of life in 2014 has reached such absurd heights of ridiculousness, I never could have seen any of this idiocy coming when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s. It's stuff like this that really makes a guy feel obsolete, like the world he used to live in has completely disappeared.
 

Stagger Lee

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zekko said:
Did we really need a tougher rape law? Is there any surprise this is the kind of BS law that gets passed in ultraliberal California?


Fvck it. Let's just legally require the girl to sign a frigging consent form before any sexual contact. Thing is, that still won't settle it because the girl could claim she was drunk when she signed it, and that absolves her of all responsibility.

I swear to you the level of insanity of life in 2014 has reached such absurd heights of ridiculousness, I never could have seen any of this idiocy coming when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s. It's stuff like this that really makes a guy feel obsolete, like the world he used to live in has completely disappeared.
Yeah you really can't even fathom it now or even imagine what they will come up with next since it never ends. What's worse is when implementing these laws and policies they go way beyond even the ridiculous laws' wording would suggest.
 

If you want to talk, talk to your friends. If you want a girl to like you, listen to her, ask questions, and act like you are on the edge of your seat.

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VikingKing

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So basically, if you have consensual sex and she changes her mind, you could go to jail.

Where is this? (so I never go there)
 

VikingKing

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I mean this is sick and twisted. We should work on revising our divorce laws so men dont lose as much, but now they are giving a woman the right to claim rape regardless, and we have to prove we got consent.
 

Stagger Lee

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noobolgy said:
So basically, if you have consensual sex and she changes her mind, you could go to jail.

Where is this? (so I never go there)
No, it's not criminal law. The feminist couldn't get such extreme criminal law passed YET. It's administrative law for state funded colleges and the students. This is how the feminist government enforce extreme agendas like PC and other feminist rules, by forcing the education institutions and even private sector to take away your education and employment opportunities.

What happens is you would likely face a college tribunal and get kicked out of college and have a black mark on your record, and therefore lose any meaningful educational and employment opportunities. Instead of having a college degree and a career, you might be able to get a job at McDonald's or maybe as a day laborer, where you wouldn't use your college education as a reference.

It's another way of many now in effect to keep males from getting a college education.
 

zekko

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Guilty until proven innocent.
 

mrRuckus

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Oh well, every eyeroll from a man real victims get is just something their sisters fought for. People can only take so many cries of wolf before tuning it all out.
 

Never try to read a woman's mind. It is a scary place. Ignore her confusing signals and mixed messages. Assume she is interested in you and act accordingly.

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randell

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why does she "think" you wont rip off her head for lying to the cops?
 

YawataNoKami

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So basically, if you have consensual sex and she changes her mind, you could go to jail.

Where is this? (so I never go there)
Believe me , if Hitlary run and win this will be the law of the land.
 

dasein

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Why would any thinking parents put their sons at risk by sending them into such blatantly legally discriminatory environments? In any rational world, this would mean instant economic crisis at all California colleges. Sadly that's not the status quo.

Anyone who thinks they are sitting on the sidelines on legal discrimination against men is mistaken, that feminism is "not that big a deal and doesn't affect me" is mistaken. By the time it happens to you, your family or friends it will be too late. Vote with your feet and dollars. Leave states that create and enforce discriminatory law, don't buy from institutions or companies located in those states. Tell your friends about it as well. Speak out while we still can.
 

Skyline

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I remember watching the news a while back and it was around the time a football games was occurring and they had told tailgators that they could not bring any beer. The reporter then interviewed a student who was behind all of that and she told the reporter that it was to help cut down on and to keep the tailgating more safe and clean. That part I understood but then she goes on about drunken sex and "rape" and then I was just like : "who put this girl in charge?" The way she was "passionate" about stopping campus "rape" made it clear that it wasn't even about the safety and cleanliness she had said earlier. She looked like she was about my age, if not younger, she was wearing a basic t shirt and jeans and she still had some acne on the side of her cheek and under her chin.

I don't know about you guys, but if you're not at least 25 then I'm not listening to any "rule" or "law" you protest because it's probably going to be stupid. And I don't get it. If a rapist wants to rape someone, a law or rule isn't going to stop him. Just like how a terrorist or gunman wants to hurt and destroy things, gun laws and yellow tape aren't going to stop them. This just makes me ponder whether or not the average man is now going to be called a "rapist" while the REAL rapists is out behind the courtroom looking for another victim.
 

dasein

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The lie of "rape culture" is really just another form of outwardly expressed female narcissism, "look at ME! pay attention to ME! Protect ME! Obey ME! Enforce some fake magic safety bubble for ME!" especially on campuses where few actual rapes occur. The truth of this is seen in the difference between how people react to assault as a crime, of which rape is a mere subset, sometimes worse than a vicious assault, sometimes far less damaging.

Imagine if "assault victims" banded together to protest "assault culture" and sought to yell at others and try to constrain their lawful behavior, discriminate in court, hold candlelight assault vigils... as opposed to acting like adults, getting past, and supporting the rule of law. Why is the difference so striking? Because... innate female narcissistic tendencies and consumer culture aggravation of those tendencies. Many women use their big brains to escape such tendencies. Those who don't are effectively hissing, spraying angry cats, animalistic, not humanistic. We used to dispose of aggressive alley cats out of hand, but culture has elevated them to a pedestal. We have to listen to them hissing and spitting their vile imprecations, self-absorption and lies. There is no escape from it other than behind locked doors.

When one wakes up one day in life and the only savor of life one enjoys is wallowing in one's identity as a member of a supposed victim group, advocating for self-benefitting discrimination due to that victim status, yelling out moronic inaccuracies through a bullhorn at other people, inflicting one's will on others' freedom to behave as they will within the law, then it's time for the razorblades and warm bathwater. One has effectively become subhuman and wasted away whatever humanity was there to start.
 

zekko

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Women want to be able to make a mistake by sleeping with some guy and then deny it once she sobers up and claim it was rape.

Why can't the guy say he was a victim because he was intoxicated?
 

YawataNoKami

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Many men are of the RedPill mindset but have never heard the acronym. Why? The more men that get jacked in no fault divorce, false rape, false DV and false sexual harassment, the more men, either consciously or unconsciously, join the fold.

RedPill, the word, will never dominate culturally. Instead, marriage rates will continue to plummet and out of wedlock births will continue to rise. As a result, ever more misandric laws will proliferate. "yes means yes" is built on deeply false rape statistics. Those in power know the stats are false. The real agenda behind "yes means yes" is to return men to life on bended knee. The real agenda behind "yes means yes" is to transfer complete sexual control over men to women. Why? The sexual revolution has only served to hurt women both psychologically and economically. This new law is meant to destroy men that don't tow the gynocentric line. It's a desperate move to force men into commitment lest they suffer the fury of a woman scorned. It's so simple. Even popular feminists have admitted that the law is intended to induce fear in men. Why? For purposes of control. Once the "sucker" is in a committed state, he can later be destroyed through alimony and child support. Cause you know - men are disposable.

It's all about power and control. You don't have to be a RedPiller to see that. As time passes, increasing numbers of men are waking up to this paradigm shift. The next desperate move will be to redefine domestic abuse in terms of denial of monetary resources and to redefine cohabitation in terms of alimony and asset division. This is already being pushed globally. When these laws get passed, the marriage and birth rates will plummet further. How do I know this? I know this because this has already happened in countries that have passed these laws.

Every mainstream article written now contains RedPills mindset responses. "RedPill" might not appear in the response, but the mindset is definitely there.

The feminists have and always will do the lions share of recruiting. In my mind, serves as a learning space for men to come to after the feminists have done their job.

No one in the mainstream media is going to mention TheRedPill. Why? They'd be digging their own graves. It's bad enough that so many know of this mindset. The PTB would be royally screwing themselves by giving us any press. But rest assured, they know of our existence, and they do not like us. Why? Men opting out represents economic ruin.

Feminists handed men a great gift by freeing them from indentured servitude to women. Women are starting to get this now. To me, the most important thing is to not give women back the power they once held over men - be they feminist or anti-feminist. I don't really care what acronym is used to describe that resistance.

The RedPill mindset is spreading in ways we don't see. The butterfly effect is a powerful force. Its power should not be underestimated.
 

Mike32ct

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Even if you get "consent" as they recommend, it is still your word against hers. It doesn't matter if YOU heard her say, "F my brains out now." She can still later deny that she said that. Or if she was drunk or at least buzzed, she might not even honestly remember saying that.

This is so ridiculous.

Basically, you have to make a video interviewing her before sex. First, she has to say that she consents to be being recorded, and she then has to take a breathalyzer test on the film to show that she's completely sober, and then she has to describe in detail EXACTLY which sex acts she wants that night LOL. Keep a copy of the video until after you graduate lol.

This "law" is another part of the some extreme 80/20 or 90/10 agenda. It's intended to scare away any guy who isn't super hot or high status. Only guys that women drool over will get away with making a move and having sex. (Although even they will be taking a calculated risk. Nobody will be completely safe.)
 

zekko

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YawataNoKami said:
Many men are of the RedPill mindset but have never heard the acronym.
I've always thought that the "red pill" analogy was rather juvenile. Partly because I'm not a huge Matrix fan - I thought the movie was okay. As far as movies that the Manoshpere embrace, I think Fight Club is far superior.

And also because I think the analogy oversells the effect. I read guys on here saying stuff like "I swallowed the red pill - I choked and sputtered on it as it went down but now the scales have fallen from my eyes! My life is transformed!". Well, really, I think to have that kind of reaction you either have to be very young, or very naive to begin with - if you've lived your life as any kind of man.

Guys here seem to paint men outside the manosphere as totally clueless. But I knew about the risks of getting married long before there was a SoSuave. You think men can't see what's going on around them? You think they are completely unaware? After all, the term "Nice guys finish last" comes from the mainstream, not the seduction community.

YawataNoKami said:
Why? For purposes of control. Once the "sucker" is in a committed state, he can later be destroyed through alimony and child support. Cause you know - men are disposable.
Women want to drain men of their resources and dispose of the dried out husk. And politicians cater to them because they make up the majority of voters.

YawataNoKami said:
The next desperate move will be to redefine domestic abuse in terms of denial of monetary resources and to redefine cohabitation in terms of alimony and asset division.
Unfortunately, I believe you are accurate on this. As men opt out of marriage, women (and the state) will find other ways to drain their resources.

Mike32ct said:
This "law" is another part of the some extreme 80/20 or 90/10 agenda. It's intended to scare away any guy who isn't super hot or high status. Only guys that women drool over will get away with making a move and having sex. (Although even they will be taking a calculated risk. Nobody will be completely safe.)
Even the super hot guys will be vulnerable, because if the women feel spurned when they go off to bang someone else, they might cry rape just to get revenge.
 

Mike32ct

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zekko said:
Even the super hot guys will be vulnerable, because if the women feel spurned when they go off to bang someone else, they might cry rape just to get revenge.
Agreed.

Shifting gears a bit...

I agree with Stagger that this is more "incremental politics." Start out as an "administrative law" on State college campuses FOR NOW. But the end goal is state laws in all 50 states making it a criminal offense. It's sort of like, "Give us civil unions for now. We'll be back for full gay marriage later."

This will also further screw up the male/female ratios. Already, we have more women in many colleges than men. Plenty of men may choose to avoid California State schools in hopes for a "safer" hookup culture in another state (for now).
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

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