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joekerr31

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Hey guys.

Was going to reply to a post on ‘the one’ topic, but ended up going all over the place. So figured id do a separate post instead. I thought id lay out some of the various variables at play with regards to our generation today. Because I think ultimately a lot of the male / female issues are arising primarily from the culture soup we are all swimming in.

Don’t mean for this to sound like a pity party, but at the same time I think its valuable to discuss ‘what exactly is the world we are living in?’. In doing so I think it becomes easier to understand why we run in to the disappointments or limitations that we do.

Anyway, some points for discussion if anyone likes...

personally i think a HUGE HUGE HUGE part of the reason that so many of us are having trouble finding 'the one' is that many of our generation (25- 40) don't feel as though we have a true place in the world yet.

there is this tidal wave of baby boomers who dominate the economy, especially the white collar jobs, who have left a cultural vacuum in their wake.

- there aren't enough jobs out there, which creates a supply / demand model where no one feels secure in their job long term. Much less feel as though they will experience steady growth upward. In the old days once you got a job you felt comfortable starting a family. now a job is something you get and hold on to as long as you can, but eventually expect to either lose or come to hate.

- so many poeple come from divorced homes and don't trust the marriage model all that much

- most of us are over educated and underpaid and we can't figure out what the hell happened (back to economic supply and demand for the answer to that).

- we are the first generation to spend more (isolated) time with machines than humans (ie. television, internet, pcs). this is a function of being raised with television and often baby sat by it.

- we have more freedom than any other generation, but with less structure and cultural norms to follow. As a result for many our freedom feels more like being dropped in the middle of the ocean - sure, you can swim in whatever direction you'd like, but to what end?

- our generation has no great leaders. actors (fictional characters – example, scarface, Neo, marv, etc.) have become our icons (god help us all!). the airhead paris hilton’s of the world get all the attention. [although some in their later years are starting to usurp the baby boomers - ie. John Stewart for one]

- unfortunately many of the icons we identified with were tortured souls, ie. cobain for instance.

- women have no clue who they are suppose to be anymore. they have no role models to follow in terms of how to be a 'modern woman' – they are the first generation to carry this new role. So they copy each other and crap they see on Oprah and sex in the city – because they have no clue what to do otherwise.

- religion is dying rapidly in most parts of the west. it got in the way of business, greed, lust, corporate marketing machines who need to sell products, etc. As a result morality is now seen in very subjective individualistic terms (and in many cases looked down upon).

- we have very little outlets for folks are age. The bars are geared towards 25 and younger. So we don’t really have places to congregate and socialize. As a result everyone is yacking away on the internet.

- We are an ‘observant’ generation as opposed to an active generation. We grew up ‘watching’ the world instead of ‘changing’ it – and our hands were tied in many regards from changing as the baby boomers controlled everything through their numbers.

- Men, more than anyone, have really lost their sense of value in our culture. While men are still desired by women, they are not valued like they use to be. And while they are devalued they are simultaneously still held accountable by many women as being responsible for their ‘happiness’

- We have become a culture of extremes and as a result have created unrealistic comparison points. In previous generations not being ‘fat’ was good enough to be considered attractive. In today’s society the comparison models are Hollywood actors with personal trainers, plastic surgery and photoshopped magazine spreads.

- Our generation also seems to really lack a sense of time passing. This is the result of all of the above. The years seem to fly by and we find very little changing. Lack of change is one of the biggest factors that causes us to feel as though there’s little hope.
- We are bombarded with global news that creates the wrong frame of mind for living ones life. Past generations might have delt with one or two major global stories in a year. Our generation deals with that in a one day!

Anyway, I don’t necessarily think these observations are merely my perspectives. They come from what I see around me. Perhaps previous generations were just as lost as we are today. But I don’t think so. They surely had it tougher in many regards – they fought world wars, struggled through depressions, redefined human rights – but through it all the people of a generation seemed to feel connected to each other. And the generation before them seemed to have a place for them in the world – a starting point and a progression into running things.

Today though I think most of our generation feels completely disconnected from the previous generation (ie. Baby boomers) and kind of cut off from each other in a personal sense while being connected to each other on a global scale in a very impersonal sense.

Anyway food for thought. Discussion is wide open if anyone wants to jump in.
 

Phyzzle

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Well, that's quite a mix! I think most of the above comes down to:

we have more freedom than any other generation, but with less structure and cultural norms to follow.
Right on. Apparently, it's not good to bring gifts or duscuss relationships on a 1st date. But how do we know this? Certainly our parents, peers, and textbooks never told us any of this stuff. We have to become involved with some sort of secret freakin' society on the internet to learn normal behavior.

I pre-industrial culture, it would never occur to anyone to ask "how long should we date before sex? How long before thinking about monogamy?" The answers were taken for granted back then.

I'm not pity-partying either. I believe that new social norms are in the process of evolving now on the global scale, from both migration and the internet. You can think of this as an exciting time, a time of flux. It can get dam confusing sometimes.
 

STR8UP

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Too much to comment on after my third or fourth straight 12 hour day...

Keep this thread going cause I wanna try to touch on it when I get some time
 

bigjohnson

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There are a lot of jobs, if you're really qualified. Overqualified and underpaid is the economic equivalent of "real men like real women". It's something people say when they suddenly realize how damn hard Dad had to work to pay Moms child support to care for their ass.
 

Vulpine

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Projection.

It's all YOUR fault.

YOU are the reason I'm fat.

YOU are the reason I'm depressed.

YOU are the reason we need welfare.

YOU don't use your turn signal.

YOU are the reason I cheated.

YOU are the reason we are getting a divorce.

There are no good men left.

I'm going to sue McDonalds because my monkey azz was drinking boiling hot coffee in rush hour traffic, and, was driving like a monkey so I spilled it on myself... DAMN YOU MCDONALDS!!!

Paris going back to jail crying "It's not fair!" and "It's just not right!"

Noone wants to admit fault for ANYTHING.

DAMN CREDIT CARD COMPANIES AND THEIR 18%!!!!!

And everyone just LOOOOVES to complain about all the nasty sh!t in the world, yet noone wants to stand up and do something about it.

What's more, everyone is scared to death of everyone else. EVERYONE is a crazy serial killer by default.

For example:

I got in a wreck many years back. It was 3:00 AM on an isolated stretch of 4 lane highway in a mountain area. My GF at the time was with me, and a deer jumped off the hillside into the middle of the road in front of me. The was no time to react, just SMACK! Deer flying, hood rumpled, antifreeze steaming everywhere. We passed a town about 7 miles back, so we had no choice but to start walking. We parked the car, steaming and leaking coolant, on the side heading back towards the town and set out on foot. Along the way 167 cars first passed the steaming, leaking, car with its hazzards on, and then passed us. One hundred and sixty seven people passed a man and woman walking down the road after passing their broke down vehicle at 3-5 in the morning. A man, and a woman, mind you.

Which reminds me of my next point:

It's not my problem. Someone else will take care of it.

Projection.
 

You essentially upped your VALUE in her eyes by showing her that, if she wants you, she has to at times do things that you like to do. You are SOMETHING after all. You are NOT FREE. If she wants to hang with you, it's going to cost her something — time, effort, money.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

MacAvoy

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I'm going to have to side with Vulpine on this one. Yes all those things that you (joekerr) said are true of society. The fact of the matter is you and I are not society. You, I or anybody for that matter doesn't have to conform to society, we can write our own destiny.

Granted its so much easier to just conform and go with the flow, I know we all do it to a degree. To me, its all about will power and the internal struggle with yourself.

I know what my strengths and weaknesses are. I naturally excel in certain areas without even thinking about it. Other areas I have to make a conscious effort, other areas I know are my downfall and I keep repeating the same mistakes.

Reminds me of a saying I came across once when I was facilitating a retreat. If it is to be, its up to me. Basically it means that if I want something to be done, I have to take responsibility, I can't rely on you or anybody else, you have to take charge and take ownership.

So as Vulpine was eluding to, people can continue to blame their shortcomings on the fact that society has steadily detoriated or they can take responsibility for the one thing they can control in society, themselves.
 

Chrispy

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Good post J. I really like your point about society being an observant one instead of an active one.

Consider for example small-town folks or cities where ppl get married young. Why? They are very friendly and they like to talk to one another. In the city where I am residing, people are guarded and don't want to invest the time in someone...without expectations. No wonder people don't hook up! Let's start with being friendly and going from there!
 

joekerr31

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i completely agree that taking personal responsibility is key to life.

the solution almost always is 100% a function of how you change your relationship to the problem.

that said, i think one also has to inspect what external variables are in play and affecting how we interpret the world around us. because ignoring those variables - ie. not identifying that they are there to begin with - is like ignoring how a woman works and thinking that you can fix any woman problems simply by working on yourself alone.

so by no means was this post to imply that all variables affecting us are external and that we hold no responsibility in our own lives.

rather i just felt like throwing out some of the variables about there that i think interfer with us leading the lives we want and interfer with men's ability to take control of their lives.

personal responsibility often becomes much much easier to embark on when one recognizes the vast amount of negative cr*p out there in the world - which if one does not recognize, one will fail to recognize the impacts that cr*p has on a person.

i liked the last posters comments about being friendly. i've always noticed that when im in my 'mr. friendly' mode i get TONS of attention as i walk through my life. yet when im in my standard 'mr. serious' mode, i don't. the reason being that i'm rushing by people and not taking the time to acknowledge them as a human being - just rushing off to one place after another while watching my watch.
 

joekerr31

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Chrispy said:
Good post J. I really like your point about society being an observant one instead of an active one.

Consider for example small-town folks or cities where ppl get married young. Why? They are very friendly and they like to talk to one another. In the city where I am residing, people are guarded and don't want to invest the time in someone...without expectations. No wonder people don't hook up! Let's start with being friendly and going from there!

"invest the time in someone... without expectations."

brilliant insight. its not enough to simply invest the time. we're talking about investing the time without expectations. that kind of 'relating' leads to bonds of friendship with people, which leads to greater social circles, which leads to bumping into the girl for you at some point.

a HUGE problem with western society today is that so many of our relationships are utility based. I play squash with fred, i go to yoga with sally, i work with frank, tom and bill, i play golf with tim and julie, and i wash my balls with Peter and Wendy.

but how many relationships are given the time to grow and mature into true friendships. how many are just wam bam thank you mam type of relationships - a function of the global capitalist culture we live in. So many people moving cities all the time, everyone rushed, etc.

anyway, i think your comment "without expectations" is a great insight into why our divorce rates are so high, why so many people are unhappy in their marriages, and why so many are single - because we rush in to things in western society, we don't start off without expectations and let them grow nad mature naturally. relationships have become like fast food - get it quick, it tastes good at first, but afterwards as you sit on the can taking a massive dump you wonder what the h*ll were you thinking eating that crap?

:up:
 

Vulpine

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joekerr31 said:
so by no means was this post to imply that all variables affecting us are external and that we hold no responsibility in our own lives.
I didn't mean to use "You" as a direction of the post, I meant to use "You" as a direction to the reader.

My post was merely pointing out my complaint about society, not aiming at anyone in particular. By using "you", the reader easily identifies with it because we've likely heard ridiculous stuff LIKE that before... "You are the reason I'm fat"? What?

Great.

My other gripe about social/societal garbage is complexity.

People make their lives needlessly complex. People fill every last bit of their days with chasing around fruitlessly, then have to get home to what?

Watch TV.

Then they complain: "I never have enought time for XXX".
:rolleyes:

People make everything rocket science. Going out for an evening, dinner, errands, clothes, everything has to be planned, compared, planned, scrutinized, written down, you have to call everybody to make sure meatloaf is acceptable, you have to go online to check and see if your shoes match the buttons on your shirt, and then when everything is laid out exactly how everyone agrees it should go...

You're late and missed the show.

Oh, well now what? Well, plan, plan, confer, get in the car, drive around from one place to another, drive around in parking lots for 10 minutes looking for a "close spot"...

Oh, oh, oh... that, right there! The driving around looking for a "good" parking spot! THAT IS MY BIGGEST BEEF WITH THE WHOLE PLANET!

Ok, so you pull into a parking lot... try this: pull into the parking lot and check your watch. Find your parking spot up in the front row like you always do. You know, wait for someone to back out, have someone steal your spot, look for another one, wait for some people walking out to their car to get in and leave, finally park, walk to the door, then...

Look at your watch again. Note the time. Write it down and keep it in your car.

Next time you go to the same place as soon as you pull in again, check your watch and note the time. This time, whip around and park right next to the entrance/exit. (the spot is open, trust me.) Now walk to the door. Check your watch, note the time.

How do you feel? Aggrivated? Soothed and calm?

This is what I'm saying about "over complex". People chase around so needlessly doing ridiculous things like finding a parking spot, then complain about not having time for things that really matter. People drive 20 minutes out of their way to save $1.00 on their gas fill up, then complain about having to sit in traffic on the way, how their filling up is going to make them late for their favorite TV show, and then they'll get all irrate and end up irritating the people with them and cancelling plans, having fights, whatever - like the silliest little life trauma will completely wreck people's days. "They were out of milk at my normal place, so I had to drive all the way across town, sit through traffic, pay $.50 more, then drive all the way back." Milk is that important?

And really, this ties right back in to personal accountability. "I'm not an idiot for waiting for a front row parking spot, they should have more front row parking spots and less of those damn "handicapped" spots!"


:cuss:
 

What happens, IN HER MIND, is that she comes to see you as WORTHLESS simply because she hasn't had to INVEST anything in you in order to get you or to keep you.

You were an interesting diversion while she had nothing else to do. But now that someone a little more valuable has come along, someone who expects her to treat him very well, she'll have no problem at all dropping you or demoting you to lowly "friendship" status.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

Francisco d'Anconia

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I'm seeing the common thread of people defining themselves via external means. Their job, their family, the clubs they are in, the clothing that they buy, their friends; pretty much the majority of things joekrr31 listed (good list by the way).

The problem with this is that it creates major similarities between the people in these various groups. You meet up with these people and they seem very familiar. No wonder, you met someone else from their particular group the other day. Talk about deja vu or some sinister cloning experiment.

What you end up is very little individuality between people. Your perception of "the one" isn't directly aligned with one of these groups so it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. You're searching through a sea of mediocrity, cliches and media driven drones.
 

squirrels

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All good points. I've noticed more and more that people needlessly complicate their life situation by the way they think. Everyone wants their life to be some kind of TV-style adventure or drama or whatever, so they make generalizations and relationships in their heads that make life a lot more complicated than what it really is.

I've noticed myself that I've had trouble in the past in my life living "in the NOW". Meaning that I always felt like the past and future were going by too fast, but the main reason was because I was completely ignoring the present moment.

When I was at work, I was in a hurry to get home. When I was home, I was in a hurry to get to the gym. When I was at the gym, I was in a hurry to get out with my friends. When I was out with my friends, I was in a hurry to get home and play X-box. When I was playing X-box, I was in a hurry to get out on my bike. When I was on the bike, I was a hurry to get home and get to the bar. When I was at the bar, I was in a hurry to get into a girl's bed. When I couldn't get a girl into bed because I was too stressed out, I was in a hurry to get home to sleep. I anticipate Friday on Monday and Monday on Saturday. I don't want to be alive NOW, I want to be alive in the FUTURE where I'm successful and have plenty of wealth and health and women.

As a result, each minute is wasted anticipating the next. It's maddening.

We're all taught that where we are RIGHT NOW isn't good enough and we should be better than we are. That's not true. You are who you are now, and that's PLENTY good enough. You should be BECOMING better than you are now. You should always be growing. But to expect to grow in an instant is foolish and often you get so wound up in trying to reach the next rung that you lose your grip on the one you're on. Then you fall.
 

joekerr31

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Vulpine said:
Oh, oh, oh... that, right there! The driving around looking for a "good" parking spot! THAT IS MY BIGGEST BEEF WITH THE WHOLE PLANET!

:cuss:
i always park at the back of the parking lot. more exercise and no hassle :)
 

Vulpine

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joekerr31 said:
i always park at the back of the parking lot. more exercise and no hassle :)

Right! Because the front of the lot is a retard traffic jam!
 

joekerr31

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squirrels said:
But to expect to grow in an instant is foolish and often you get so wound up in trying to reach the next rung that you lose your grip on the one you're on. Then you fall.
good description of most marriages if you ask me :p
 

Channel your excited feelings into positive thoughts and behaviors. You will attract women by being enthusiastic, radiating energy, and becoming someone who is fun to be around.

Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.

afc_2_dj

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Vulpine said:
Oh, oh, oh... that, right there! The driving around looking for a "good" parking spot! THAT IS MY BIGGEST BEEF WITH THE WHOLE PLANET!
I'm with you on that, nothing p*sses me off more than these idiots who block up lanes sitting waiting for one car in the front to move. just park at the back and walk the extra 20m for f*ck sakes, they probably need the exercise anyways!!
 

blueguy

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I don't like the direction some posts here are taking. Generally, it's a "half glass empty" vs. "half glass full" type of mindset. You can think, "everybody is out to get each other, trust no one," or you can think, "two people can benefit each other and have synergistic effects to produce a greater outcome." Also, "everybody's life lacks meaning, life is pointless" vs "everybody is trying to develop a meaning for their own life, it is not just given to them."

Here's another thought provoker: We have the same problem we've always had (selfishness), it is just being manifested in different forms today than it was in the past. But then you have to admit again, that self-love - or joy/happiness - is the biggest positive in this world too.
 

MacAvoy

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I don't understand the purpose of the thread. I've lost sight of where its going. To me its turned into a bit of a gripe fest. Although there are some very good points in the thread, I just see it as whining (even though I agree 100% with the whole parking lot thing).
 

Phyzzle

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I don't understand the purpose of the thread. I've lost sight of where its going.
It's going . . . straight to towards those darn airline seats!! :cuss:

And your mother in law! And those politicians: they lie a lot!
 

STR8UP

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Why is it so hard to find "the one".

1- There is no such thing, we all know that.

2- Feminization of society. I really, truly believe that the pendulum has swung too far in wrong direction, and it's due for a correction.

3- People's abuse and misuse of selfishness. To a point selfishness is good. It keeps us ALIVE. But today people take it to the extreme. The sense of entitlement in this country makes me sick. It's ME ME ME. And that takes away from being able to build healthy relationships.

4- Isolation, as Joekerr mentioned. HOWEVER....I feel as if this is changing in a positive way, at least in urban environments. Go to Europe (Berlin, Amsterdam, etc.) and you wonder if anyone is EVER HOME. People are always sitting at the cafe's or pubs socializing. As my city begins to mature into a "real" city, I see more and more of a trend toward the European way of life. Every day I see more and more people out on the street being social. It's a great thing.

Man, I could go on and on, but I think it's pretty much been covered. Just gotta do the best with what we have to work with, I suppose.
 
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