Who came up with this notion?

[SpartanWarrior77]

You probably didn't read my entire post then. Or perhaps it skipped over your head, which is understandable. My entire history with you is I would usually say something that would skip over your head and then you would admit I'm right a year later. Such is the case of a guy who lacks life experience but has the hubris of a professor.

I started off saying that it is feminine behavior. So whether or not I use men or women as an example, it's still the same. And then in the second half I told why women use the same tactics and how to deal with it.

Whatever I wrote is completely within topic.

The OP wrote: "This may be the case for other men as well. When you show your thought processes, emotional hangups and theories on life to people, you need to be careful. It's like a mechanic showing his engine to competitors. They could copy it and/or manipulate it. I just don't know how realistic this way of being is. I mean how do you do this long term? Eventually, you're going to want to be more vulnerable (especially around an LTR)."

In this paragraph, the OP was clearly talking about other men using the same tactics. He no longer was talking within the paradigm of romance, but people in general.

Did you pass english 101 in university yet? lol.

Honestly, your argument on this thread is a perfect example of one that would probably not work very well with a woman (as a general rule). Here you guys are dissecting eachother's arguments in an effort to showcase superior logic. The result? Stubborn back and forths. This is magnified with women. Eventually u guys did come to a humorous end though so good job lol

 

[SpartanWarrior77]

Also, I'd like to add:

Do you just make it a habit of NOT talking about your internal processes? That's actually something I'm practicing with people in my life (including some close friends). I don't see it as being manipulative. I see it more as being "manipulation-proof". If I don't talk too much, people can't lock me into rigid BS. Furthermore, I don't lock myself into rigid bullsh*t. Remember "commitment-consistency bias"? That bias is a b*ch and can make you and others locked into some stupid thought/action paths. Also, it's mentally/emotionally exhausting for people to hear something you say only to realize that you changed your mind. It's better not to tell them anything and let your actions speak for themselves. Over time, they will learn not to box you in to any rigid plan and allow you to do your thing adapting as you go.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Thanks for the time you put into this message. Overall, the takeaway for me was that you don't have to do a debate-style conversation with a woman. The dynamics are too asymmetrical bw men and women for there to be any "fair" debate. Instead, use a less head-on approach. One thing that seems to be a byproduct of this modified approach is that it seems that arguments/conflicts with her will not necessarily end in clear resolutions. This could be a problem in some ways especially if you like instant gratification and want a clear conclusion to each friction point. You basically have to be okay with leaving things open-ended and you need to somehow train her to be the same way. This is what it seems to be leading to.

100% and you really read between the lines - I didn’t specifically state that you will often not get conclusions to disagreements but that’s exactly true. That was hard for me to learn. I thought that every disagreement with a woman needed to end in resolution but more often than not, my experience is that it simply won’t, and that’s ok! If you feel one way and she feels another, and you’ve both explained your feelings/position clearly and listened to the other person genuinely and openly, then that’s all you can do. You don’t need to try to get her to agree with you because you have no control over that. And you don’t need to change your views and beliefs just because she’s upset or disagrees. It’s that whole “we will have to just agree to disagree” thing.

When one says “leaving things unresolved,” it sounds like a negative thing, but if you have truly heard eachother, respected her feelings, but still disagree, I would offer that it isn’t unresolved at all. Instead, it is resolved that you both understand each other, and you both have differing views. There is nothing wrong with that, and if she is being emotional about it and acts like it is wrong that you don’t agree with her then that’s her issue.

As far as outcome goes, you have to be convinced enough with your principles, boundaries and beliefs to be willing to walk away from her, and willing to let her walk away from you. But what I have discovered is that 99/100 times, despite her being incredibly pissed off and frustrated at you, if you don’t allow her to change your opinion and you also respectfully hear her out without trying to change her mind, after a brief (minutes, hours or days) cooling off period, she will come “back” to you and be drawn to your masculine leadership, frame, stability, and maturity.

Remember "commitment-consistency bias"? That bias is a b*ch and can make you and others locked into some stupid thought/action paths. Also, it's mentally/emotionally exhausting for people to hear something you say only to realize that you changed your mind.

Wow, you mean you are willing to change your mind when you are presented with information and evidence that runs contrary to your current beliefs? That seems increasingly rare these days. Everyone has their own desired view of how things are and they ignore all information to the contrary and they seek out even the flimsiest and most disproven information that supports their desires beliefs. But to answer your question, no I don’t think that not communicating your opinions or processes in order to avoid people later pointing to your past beliefs to invalidate your current beliefs is healthy. Maybe you are focused too much on “winning” arguments still? It’s ok to say, “yes I used to think that but I changed my mind because.......” One doesn’t have to form their entire beliefs at a moment in time and never change. The people who do that are the crazies who think the earth is flat or that covid is fake. Where changing beliefs can become an issue is when you are rapidly changing beliefs in-the-moment in order to win an argument. If you could give an example of you communicating your inner processes to friends, and which beliefs you changed, how long of a period of time the change occurred over, what the topic was and what their call-out to you on your change of opinion was, it might help me to more clearly see what’s happening and possibly offer more advice.

 

[SpartanWarrior77]

As far as outcome goes, you have to be convinced enough with your principles, boundaries and beliefs to be willing to walk away from her, and willing to let her walk away from you. But what I have discovered is that 99/100 times, despite her being incredibly pissed off and frustrated at you, if you don’t allow her to change your opinion and you also respectfully hear her out without trying to change her mind, after a brief (minutes, hours or days) cooling off period, she will come “back” to you and be drawn to your masculine leadership, frame, stability, and maturity.

Yes, that has also definitely been my experience. Most women do eventually come back if you hold the frame but that **** test period is rough. It could last a long time... You better be good at diversion tactics to at least have some fun with it.

If you could give an example of you communicating your inner processes to friends, and which beliefs you changed, how long of a period of time the change occurred over, what the topic was and what their call-out to you on your change of opinion was, it might help me to more clearly see what’s happening and possibly offer more advice.

Yeah, one example would be the fact that I consciously avoid "confirming" plans or ideas. I constantly counter my own ideas and visions by saying things like "I may change my mind or something might derail this." For example:

Buddy: Where do you plan on living/working?
Me: I'd like to be a lawyer and live in NYC but I don't know things might change.
Buddy: What is your religion?
Me: As of now, I'm exploring Christianity but I still don't have a solid commitment to it.
Buddy: What do you want to do this weekend?
Me: Would like to do some day game but I don't know, we'll see once the time comes.

The above is a micro-example. In a way, I kind of keep people on their toes. Anything and everything can change at a moment's notice. I don't commit myself unnecessarily to ideas, plans, or visions. I constantly remind people that I see the world dynamically and I don't allow them to think that they understand me. The truth is I don't understand me. I just evolve and adapt to the moment so much of what happens is a mystery to me. This has practical applications when it comes to women too because one way women can manipulate you is by holding you accountable to visions, plans, ideas and standards that you may have at one point preached. In other words, don't take words, ideas and thoughts too seriously and don't allow others to hold you accountable to them too seriously. Always leave room for maneuvering if you can. Some people are so static in their thinking that they can easily be manipulated by others who have a good grasp of argumentative abilities. This is used to be me... Now I stay a mystery. So much so that people in my inner circle often call me "chaos" lmao.

There is a lot of power in this kind of mentality because you make a habit of avoiding commitment consistency bias, becoming predictable and hence easily manipulative. There are other benefits too if I think about it. You also leave yourself so many more options on what to do and how to do it.

 

[Kotaix]

Thanks for the comment! Yeah, the more I mature, the more I see the truth in appealing to people's emotion first. If you're going to serve "logic" to someone, better serve it on a beautiful hot plate when they're starving (covered in emotion). Also would be curious to know more about why you are with a "progressive feminist"? I personally would probably not be in an LTR with one but I know some alphas that are in similar boats and I always wondered what their mindset was to pull this kind of thing off?

The progressive feminist thing is pretty much how the chips fell. We got along very well in the beginning and politics didn't come up until later. It wasn't about pulling it off, it was about us having a really good connection. The reality is that if we sit down and talk about it, we agree far more than we disagree. And when we disagree it's about politics and her being brainwashed by the blue pill. But I've never brought up the red pill because I know that it's pointless to talk about it. The red pill is a personal journey that has to start with them making the effort to see reality.

Also, I'd like to add:

Do you just make it a habit of NOT talking about your internal processes? That's actually something I'm practicing with people in my life (including some close friends). I don't see it as being manipulative. I see it more as being "manipulation-proof". If I don't talk too much, people can't lock me into rigid BS. Furthermore, I don't lock myself into rigid bullsh*t. Remember "commitment-consistency bias"? That bias is a b*ch and can make you and others locked into some stupid thought/action paths. Also, it's mentally/emotionally exhausting for people to hear something you say only to realize that you changed your mind. It's better not to tell them anything and let your actions speak for themselves. Over time, they will learn not to box you in to any rigid plan and allow you to do your thing adapting as you go.

I used to talk about internal processes and the fabric of reality until I realized that people, and especially women, don't want to hear about it. When you talk about it, it's like you're giving away the magic trick. No one wants to know how the trick works, they just want there to be magic.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

You saved my praise for you. That makes me the Validator, and hence, the dominant one. I revoke your status as the new stormrider.

All jokes aside. Welcome back to the forums.

I do remember things haha

 

[SpartanWarrior77]

I think that this thread would do well to pivot into how to properly remain mysterious. Everyone in the red pill talks about the importance of remaining a mystery but I think few actually understand that art.

Initially, I spoke about not revealing the inner workings of your mind. This was a very ambiguous subject and some people got it and others didn't.

I will start the conversation by saying words don't account for everything in communication...

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

I was inspired to start this thread after reading one earlier that shared similar thoughts:

To give some context, I remember being a guy who was very idealistic/idealogical. I loved creating theories of how things should be and I would often share this with my friends/bros as well as women in my life. I had a GF for a couple of years and for the most part, I kept a pretty tight frame. One thing I did notice is that at first she was very patient with me in some ways seeming to wholeheartedly agree with everything I would say (men should be more dominant, etc). Later on, she would twist my logic against me and then resort to emotion when my logic overpowered hers. In other words, it was increasingly tougher to win arguments.

So this insight is multifaceted and I'd like to hear about it from other DJs...

Maybe the whole problem was that I was trying to have too much of a mental connection with her. Don't get me wrong, the sex was great and all but I have found a tendency in my mind of trying to get other people to agree to my theories. It seems like getting her on board with your theories only works superficially and can be used against you later. Maybe a man should seek to control the dynamic way beyond the verbal. I guess this is what Rollo says when he talks about the difference be covert and overt.

Maybe men should reduce the display of their internal mechanics to a woman except during select moments. This may be the case for other men as well. When you show your thought processes, emotional hangups and theories on life to people, you need to be careful. It's like a mechanic showing his engine to competitors. They could copy it and/or manipulate it. I just don't know how realistic this way of being is. I mean how do you do this long term? Eventually, you're going to want to be more vulnerable (especially around an LTR).

Is anyone here doing a version of this in an LTR? Any thoughts in general? Curious...

Men are idealistic by nature. Women are manipulative and they are evolved to be as they are. They are not equal nor worthy of a man's lifetime of work for spoiler goods. Depreciation is a very real thing and unlike a business expense, there's no writing off the wall but pump and dump.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

Nice post.

Men are lazy and complacent. If they needed less energy to pull, we would still be in caves.

The progressive feminist thing is pretty much how the chips fell. We got along very well in the beginning and politics didn't come up until later. It wasn't about pulling it off, it was about us having a really good connection. The reality is that if we sit down and talk about it, we agree far more than we disagree. And when we disagree it's about politics and her being brainwashed by the blue pill. But I've never brought up the red pill because I know that it's pointless to talk about it. The red pill is a personal journey that has to start with them making the effort to see reality.




I used to talk about internal processes and the fabric of reality until I realized that people, and especially women, don't want to hear about it. When you talk about it, it's like you're giving away the magic trick. No one wants to know how the trick works, they just want there to be magic.