When they turn, they turn fast

[JDAM]

I would have went for it...you wussed out.

Marrying her tomorrow involved not getting a pre-nup. That was just her way of trying to get me to marry her without one.

 

[BeExcellent]

I agree with the consensus here. I'll add this:

This is a woman who knows she has value and is the sort of traditional woman many men would like to have.

At her age I too would have refused a pre-nup. I wanted to be a wife & build a life no matter what with a life partner. My plan was get married once & stay that way. Many young women see a pre-nup as a back door exit from total commitment to the marriage. I saw the requirement (then) of a pre-nup as a hard deal breaker. She is behaving as though she does too.

She won't compromise so that's that. She cuts her losses & moves on to other options. It's more about her principles than her not desiring you. She thinks the pre-nup makes the marriage conditional and she's not OK with that. In her mind this is the self respecting thing to do.

She cannot understand the pragmatic (and very real) legitimate concerns that you have. I do not plan to marry again. And if I did I'd require a strong pre-nup to protect my children and my assets that produce my income. That is the sensible thing to do in your situation. But you guys are hard core deal breaker incompatible on this point.

 

[Soflobro#3]

She obviously doesn't love him as much as she leads him to believe. She's wants to retain power over him and have the upper hand.Thats all it is. A power grab.

 

[JDAM]

I agree with the consensus here. I'll add this:

This is a woman who knows she has value and is the sort of traditional woman many men would like to have.

At her age I too would have refused a pre-nup. I wanted to be a wife & build a life no matter what with a life partner. My plan was get married once & stay that way. Many young women see a pre-nup as a back door exit from total commitment to the marriage. I saw the requirement (then) of a pre-nup as a hard deal breaker. She is behaving as though she does too.

She won't compromise so that's that. She cuts her losses & moves on to other options. It's more about her principles than her not desiring you. She thinks the pre-nup makes the marriage conditional and she's not OK with that. In her mind this is the self respecting thing to do.

She cannot understand the pragmatic (and very real) legitimate concerns that you have. I do not plan to marry again. And if I did I'd require a strong pre-nup to protect my children and my assets that produce my income. That is the sensible thing to do in your situation. But you guys are hard core deal breaker incompatible on this point.

Thank you Be Exellent, I appreciate the input. She has articulated basically the same reason that you have for her decision back when we had our many discussions about the prenup. What I resent from her is that I gave her the conditions of the pre-nup before we got engaged and she still accepted the engagement, which was something she was pushing for. If she knew she was never going to accept it, why get engaged, let me put deposits on rental halls, buy her dress, introduce her to my family, and plan and go on vacations with my daughter and I?

I guess you are right: we are incompatable at this point on this issue and there is nothing to be done about it. I guess that it was either her or me who was going to have to cut their losses first and it looks like she made that move.

Thanks again

 

[JDAM]

She obviously doesn't love him as much as she leads him to believe. She's wants to retain power over him and have the upper hand.Thats all it is. A power grab.

Thats the feeling I'm getting. Like Ranger Mike said, if she was really that into me she would have signed it. I guess she thinks she has better options. I don't blame her for that if that is what she truely thinks. I would do the same thing if I thought I could easily get better options. I'm not without options myself, after all, if I was able to date her I can date other women like her, but I caught feelings for her and that makes it hard.

 

[Soflobro#3]

Thank you Be Exellent, I appreciate the input. She has articulated basically the same reason that you have for her decision back when we had our many discussions about the prenup. What I resent from her is that I gave her the conditions of the pre-nup before we got engaged and she still accepted the engagement, which was something she was pushing for. If she knew she was never going to accept it, why get engaged, let me put deposits on rental halls, buy her dress, introduce her to my family, and plan and go on vacations with my daughter and I?

I guess you are right: we are incompatable at this point on this issue and there is nothing to be done about it. I guess that it was either her or me who was going to have to cut their losses first and it looks like she made that move.

Thanks again

She sounds like a self absorbed b1tch. Sometimes I'm amazed by how dishonest these women are. They will act a certain way to control your perception of them, leading you to believe something that's not true. Yet they think this isn't lying because it's not a blatant verbal lie.

 

[Poonani Maker]

This is why I'll NEVER buy the large vulgar golf-course or horse acreage home, AND why I'll never buy the $50++K car. A female will/must want me (if it's "for life") in a modest home/truck/car, or it's dust n' ashes for her, go find someone else. I've figured that it'd take $2,000,000 to replace my current income SAFELY for life. How can I do that if I'm out buying large homes and taking on more stress, more debt, and owning banks interest?

 

[R.U.G.]

I think I incorrectly posted this in the Mature man forum. I think that because my situation is not unique to older men, I reposted it here.

First, I want to thank this forum for opening my eyes to male/female interactions, and through that, changing my perspective on myself. I found this place just over a year ago and the knowledge gained here has allowed me to change my life and I can’t thank everyone here enough. I am posting this because I learned so much over the last year from other member’s posts and maybe this can do the same for someone else. Writing it out here in black and white helped me to see the relationship is over, there’s no point in trying to resuscitate something that is terminal.

Long story short, I am 48 years old, divorced for 4 years, was married for 20. Spent the last 1.5 years in a relationship with a (now 30 year old) woman. The relationship was the best one I have had so far. She is attractive, cheerful, and willingly accepts the traditional gender roles. She cooks for me, does my laundry, etc. and I have always felt respected and that she looks up to me in the relationship. Got engaged after a year and we were supposed to get married in December. Since I have been married before (but avoided getting cleaned out because my ex wife and I made the same amount of money) and I have seen many men I work with get divorced and then been forced to pay alimony and child support I insisted on a pre-nup with her. I told her I needed a prenup before we got engaged 5 months ago and she has had the actual copy of it for 3 months.

Fast forward to last Friday. I wanted to get the pre-nup signed since we’re 90 days out from the wedding date. I ended up losing frame for the first time. I started shouting for a few seconds and visibly got upset. Then I stormed out. She called me the next day and told me she is just scared of the pre-nup and loves me more than anything. She also asked if I thought that we broke up when I stormed out and I answered honestly that I did think that. She asked me to come over and talk about it and I got more assurances of love and devotion from her over there when I went over and that continued through the week.

This Thursday we started talking about the pre-nup again and I could see her demeanor was harder. She basically said she very much wants to get married but she isn’t signing one. Even said that if I have to pack my stuff up and go I “should be civil about it and not disappear”. She’s never said things like that before. I asked her about that statement and she insisted that she didn’t want me to pack up and go that she was “just scared”. Keep in mind, the whole evening she is telling me how much she loves me and wants to get married (just without a pre-nup).

Next day I tried one last time to see if we could work it out. I went to see her and I even compromised on part of my retirement but she was adamant about another issue. It made me think that she was not looking for solutions at that point, just a reason to blow this up. I ended up losing frame again, got even more visibly upset than the first time, and left. I haven’t heard from her in two days which has never happened before.

Looking back at this I know losing frame was a major mistake and I did it twice. I also see now that when she thought I broke up with her, she sucked me back in, only so that she could basically be the one to reject me less than a week later. And her mentioning me packing up and leaving out of nowhere, I mean, that was a not very subtle hint that she was fine with me leaving and not coming back. What surprises me the most is that she has been super loving, attentive, and supportive the past few months and right up until the end. In 5 days she went from “I love you more than you’ll ever know” and “I can’t imagine my life without you” to “if you’re going to pack up and leave we should be civil about it” then radio silent.

At this point I know it’s over. I’m just shocked at how fast she turned. I also know that when a woman breaks up with you she has thought about it a hundred times before which makes me wonder when she really knew she was going to do this. Months ago maybe. They also don’t leave without a parachute so I would be surprised if she hasn’t been talking to other guys for some time now behind my back. I plan to go over there tomorrow after she is at work, get my stuff, leave her key and then go no contact. Since we were supposed to get married and now we aren’t, there’s really no place to go from here and no point in keeping in contact.

Major lessons learned:
1-Frame is really everything. You lose frame even once and they start to doubt you. Don’t argue with women, they are way better at eliciting emotional reactions than you are. Every time you argue with a woman you risk her provoking an emotional response from you. I won’t be doing that again.
2- I gave up a lot of myself in this relationship without realizing it. I stopped going to BJJ, I stopped seeing other women, I stopped talking to other women, I did not apply for certain career opportunities in our headquarters so I could be with her. So now when it’s over, I’m left trying to rebuild my life and get it back on track.
3- The medium is the message. As I have read on this forum countless times, watch what they do, not what they say. If something is important to people they will make time for it. She’s had that pre-nup for several months. If she really valued me and wanted to lock me down she would have signed it. It’s that simple.
4-No matter how well you get a long, how well she treats you, how much she says she loves you, or how much you love her, every woman is capable of turning on you with very little warning.



PS: I'm starting to see the wisdom in the predominant view here that marriage is a losing proposition. I'm not looking to put myself through this again.

R

She wants those reassurances that if and when you end the marriage, she gets to walk away with something for her time. @marmel75 is correct, just don't follow his lead and get married. Never a good prop. for a man to do these days. Still amazed he did knowing what the deal is with the marriage trap. TBH, you should had said, hey, no problem at all. I do not want you to feel uneasy or worried at all. We'll just put the wedding on hold until you're ready and comfortable to proceed. Never screw or yell. She ultimately wants some sort of reaction and hopes that the emotional pulling will push you to throw out the pre-nup. If you back down now on this, she knows she's the one with the power in the relationship. Anyone and everyone should have a pre-nup if you must get married. There really is no reason for a man to be married these days. Most who do are just unwise and uninformed. However, we all make mistakes. A persons greatest lessons are his or her own mistakes.

 

[R.U.G.]

Going to expand as years ago I went through this. @RangerMIke is correct. Since a landmark case in New York in 2013, most prenups do not hold up because of sympathy, fraudulent covalence, unintended hiding of assets, etc. My then wife also refused to sign a prenup. I met with an estate attorney and placed all my assets in an irrevocable trust and made a third party the beneficiary. It was challenged during my divorce, but I won and nothing was shared. The only problem would be the retirement accounts and any commingling of current accounts. Those cannot be covered. You can keep your account separate through the marriage, however, if you buy a house together, that and those funds being used to pay for the upkeep will be part of the marital estate. Since you have kids, you must keep them in mind. However, I do not see how marriage in any way, shape or form will benefit you; especially since you've already been through the divorce ringer. You know what can happen. 86 the bytch.

 

[JDAM]

She wants those reassurances that if and when you end the marriage, she gets to walk away with something for her time. @marmel75 is correct, just don't follow his lead and get married. Never a good prop. for a man to do these days. Still amazed he did knowing what the deal is with the marriage trap. TBH, you should had said, hey, no problem at all. I do not want you to feel uneasy or worried at all. We'll just put the wedding on hold until you're ready and comfortable to proceed. Never screw or yell. She ultimately wants some sort of reaction and hopes that the emotional pulling will push you to throw out the pre-nup. If you back down now on this, she knows she's the one with the power in the relationship. Anyone and everyone should have a pre-nup if you must get married. There really is no reason for a man to be married these days. Most who do are just unwise and uninformed. However, we all make mistakes. A persons greatest lessons are his or her own mistakes.

You're 100% right: I feel like even if wanted to give her what she wanted now, I can't, because then she knows she's the one with the power and in the end that would go bad on me anyway. It's better to learn from my mistakes, take the L here and go out standing tall.
Thanks man you made me feel better.

 

[claudolfgeorgini]

This is a thing that women ALWAYS do.

They want things to end on friendly terms with closure.

Never let them be 100% sure that you've accepted them back. Whenever you take back a woman, make sure you give her stipulations.

 

[JDAM]

Going to expand as years ago I went through this. @RangerMIke is correct. Since a landmark case in New York in 2013, most prenups do not hold up because of sympathy, fraudulent covalence, unintended hiding of assets, etc. My then wife also refused to sign a prenup. I met with an estate attorney and placed all my assets in an irrevocable trust and made a third party the beneficiary. It was challenged during my divorce, but I won and nothing was shared. The only problem would be the retirement accounts and any commingling of current accounts. Those cannot be covered. You can keep your account separate through the marriage, however, if you buy a house together, that and those funds being used to pay for the upkeep will be part of the marital estate. Since you have kids, you must keep them in mind. However, I do not see how marriage in any way, shape or form will benefit you; especially since you've already been through the divorce ringer. You know what can happen. 86 the bytch.

Who was the third party beneficiary?

 

[JDAM]

This is a thing that women ALWAYS do.

They want things to end on friendly terms with closure.

Never let them be 100% sure that you've accepted them back. Whenever you take back a woman, make sure you give her stipulations.

I don't think she's coming back from this. It feels like she just decided to cut her losses with me and move on. She is probably just waiting for me to get my stuff out of her house so she can say I'm the bad guy since I gave up on the relationship while she was trying to work on it. That's not the case, but that's how she will try to spin it

 

[Soflobro#3]

I don't think she's coming back from this. It feels like she just decided to cut her losses with me and move on. She is probably just waiting for me to get my stuff out of her house so she can say I'm the bad guy since I gave up on the relationship while she was trying to work on it. That's not the case, but that's how she will try to spin it

Then just get your stuff and act like you're not bothered. Don't express any feelings.

 

[rber]

The marriage was dependent on not having a prenup, which really speaks for itself. You dodged a bullet.
It still hurts though, let time do its thing.

 

[JDAM]

Then just get your stuff and act like you're not bothered. Don't express any feelings.

Thanks bro. That's what I plan to do tomorrow. Get my stuff when she is at work, leave her keys there and then go no contact. Not because I think it will get her back (cause it won't get her back) but because I just need to move on.

 

[R.U.G.]

Who was the third party beneficiary?

It can be anyone. I used a family member or lawyer. Best part of a New York Irrevocable Trust is that it can be cancelled by the grantor (I.E. you) with permission from the trustee. After 3 years, it's finalized and usually cannot be torn up by a court unless of fraudulent covalence or commingling of assets. As always, check with an estate lawyer. I also informed my then fiancee of this, she didn't know what it meant. Oh well. I'm sitting pretty, as should you; especially since you have four kids to look after. Always protect yourself first. After all, no one less will. You first, then your children, then anyone else. I also go by the old steadfast rule as no good deed goes unpunished.

 

[JDAM]

It can be anyone. I used a family member or lawyer. Best part of a New York Irrevocable Trust is that it can be cancelled by the grantor (I.E. you) with permission from the trustee. After 3 years, it's finalized and usually cannot be torn up by a court unless of fraudulent covalence or commingling of assets. As always, check with an estate lawyer. I also informed my then fiancee of this, she didn't know what it meant. Oh well. I'm sitting pretty, as should you; especially since you have four kids to look after. Always protect yourself first. After all, no one less will. You first, then your children, then anyone else. I also go by the old steadfast rule as no good deed goes unpunished.

I'm going to ask my lawyer about that tomorrow. I'm in Florida but maybe the state law is no different here. That's why I love this forum, you get the best advice!

 

[R.U.G.]

I don't think she's coming back from this. It feels like she just decided to cut her losses with me and move on. She is probably just waiting for me to get my stuff out of her house so she can say I'm the bad guy since I gave up on the relationship while she was trying to work on it. That's not the case, but that's how she will try to spin it

Doesn't matter. Marriage for you should be off the table. If you still love her, which it seems you do (and that is fine), state we can take a break, possibly revisit cohabitation again and see where it goes. As for now, marriage is off the table. Then, if you do proceed, make her chase you for the restart of the relationship. I'd also throw in a cohabitation agreement, but since it is not your place right now, it is not important. What is important is that you gain the upper hand again in the relationship. As weird as it sounds, she wants you do grab the upper hand and run with the ball too; even if she doesn't admit it. Most women want to follow a strong man, not be the leader. The thing is, this you cannot fake, you must be it in real life.

 

[R.U.G.]

I'm going to ask my lawyer about that tomorrow. I'm in Florida but maybe the state law is no different here. That's why I love this forum, you get the best advice!

Every State is different, however, I know of only New York which allows the grantor the ability to kill the trust at his or her request and the trustee accepts. Each State is different, and the trust is ruled by those State's laws, not where you live (additional protection). Other States which are good are Delaware, Nevada and Arizona. However, very expensive. As always, follow what your lawyer says and you want to make sure it is iron-clad. Once done, with this one or any other woman, you can disclose if you wish, but it is not mandatory such as a pre-nup. I did it as a test, but the more savvy of a woman, the more they will understand. You get involved with a doctor, business owner or lawyer, they will know.