What Really Makes the Most Difference? How Heavy You Lift or The Reps?

[Frank2500]

Ever since I hurt my back quite badly from doing 100kg on one of those tricep machines, I was advised at the end of my physical therapy to significantly reduce how heavily I lift. I only returned to the gym a week and a half ago and have been doing mainly light exercises. I noticed however that on the machine which caused me the back injury/lumbago, once I try to do beyond 30kg, it's as if I feel my back telling me: "Hey you know what? Hold it right there. You better get back down to 30kg because you're straining/over exerting me."

So my question then is, what do you guys really think works most effectively with regards to building muscle? Do you guys think the key really lies in how heavily a person lifts or the number of repetitions the person does? Not surprisingly, since I've been away from the gym for about two months, the definition I used to have on my triceps has pretty much almost disappeared and it's like I'm virtually starting it all over again. Nonetheless, at only 30kg on that machine, I don't feel at all as if it's doing much to build my tricep muscles effectively. At the same time though, I'd rather go down the safe route by lifting much lighter than risk destroying my back

 

[Purefilth]

lift heavy for strength training. To build muscle you need to spend more time under tension, so drop the weight (maybe as low as 60% of 1rm) and do more reps. Lower weight means you can do the rep slower and make sure you do a full rep - engaging all the muscle fibres.

 

[speed dawg]

Both.

I suggest, especially with back pain, that you start with high reps and light weight. Master your form. Then, over the course of 8-10 weeks, build up to higher weights and lower reps.

I am of the opinion that you CAN get lean, build mass and increase strength at the same time.

 

[Frank2500]

Re:

I thank you both so much for taking the time to respond. Considering the pain and significant discomfort that I experienced in my lower back from mid May up to a very good period of June and the way it feels whenever I try to push very hard and lift heavy, I'm worried about making my condition worse. It's a tough cal. At the same time you want to regain the muscle mass you had worked so hard to build, but at what cost? We all have only one spinal cord and one back. Damaging such a very sensitive area would be rather unfortunate.

 

[Frank2500]

Re:

@bradd80: Thanks so much for this, great guy. I appreciate it.

 

[DanZy]

Frank,

According to the latest scientific reports on muscle growth posted by medical doctors, you only need one set, performed to failure (ie exhaustion, or to the point where you can't lift another rep), in order to develop large, defined muscles.

These medical specialists conclude that any more sets done on individual muscle groups is not only a waste of time, but is actually counterproductive to muscle development because it cuts back on recovery and muscle growth time.

This theory has been confirmed by many professional bodybuilders. One is Mike Mentzer, and here are some pics of his physique so you can see for yourself how this theory has been applied:

Mike Mentzer bodybuilding pics

According to Mentzer - and again this is backed by scientific research by medical doctors - muscle growth and development consists of three phases: stimulation, recovery, and growth. According to him, you only need one set of weights, performed to exhaustion, in order to stimulate muscle growth. Then, your muscles go through recovery which is where they rebuild themselves. Finally, when the muscle fibres have been repaired they begin to grow in anticipation for the next training session. According to Mentzer, the more sets you do, the more recovery time is needed, which in turn allows less time for rest - the period of time in which muscles actually grow.

And this article, from the Mayo Clinic, backs this by stating that one rep is just as effective in building muscle as multiple sets:

Mayo Clinic Scientific Report: One Set is Just as Effective as Multiple Sets

I suspect much of your back pain is due to performing way more sets than necessary using very heavy weights over a very long period of time. I would suggest not doing squats or deadlifts, and focus more on isolation exercises. Do only one set per body part, performed to exhaustion. Lighten your load so you only do a few sets per workout, and don't do more than 4 workouts per week to allow for maximum recovery time. Each session should last like 20 minutes. So for example, do calves and forearms one day, then biceps, triceps and chest another, abs and legs another, and finally shoulders and back. Try it for 3 months and see how it goes. This has been my mode of training, and I have experienced what I think are pretty impressive results in only 3 months.

It may sound like you're not doing much, since each session will seem relatively easy compared to the way you used to train. But you will experience massive gains. Why do Olympic athletes continue to break records? Because better training methods are constantly being adopted, in which smarter, shorter bursts of high intensity exercises are being performed in order to allow for maximum possible recovery time, and this is the period in which muscle growth actually happens. Athletes are constantly being shown new and smarter - and not necessarily harder - ways of training better.

Hope this helps buddy, and best of luck keep us updated!

And Mike Mentzer died at the age of 40, his steroid usage must have been monstrous. Very few people train like this and even fewer, if any, see results from it. It sounds good on paper but simply doesn't carry over into the real world

 

[switch]

What Really Makes the Most Difference?

your form.

Frank, also check out this study (again from researchers specializing in muscle development) which concludes that building muscle doesn't require heavy weights:

http://phys.org/news200747288.html

also bradd if people got big by doing 2kg kettleball lunges and 4kg biceps curls, everyone would be a Schwarzenegger at my gym.

 

[Frank2500]

Re:

@Switch: If you don't mind me asking, when you talk about "form," what exactly are you referring to? Does it have anything to do with being either in shape or out of shape? My situation is quite a complex one given that in as much as I would like to resume lifting as heavily as possible as soon as I can, I have to be extremely careful about straining my back right now and making things worse. I used to have very good definition/mass on my triceps but after having practically been away from the gym since mid May, it has practically almost vanished.



I only returned to the gym about two weeks ago and I'm trying to be as careful as I can so that I don't make my back situation worse. It's healed enough to be able to enable me return to working out moderately but with the 30kg I currently do on the tricep machine I don't seem to see that helping or making much of a difference at all as far as definition is concerned. Yet when I try to increase it just to 5 additional kilos right now...I already experience some discomfort on my back so I'm trying to go very carefully

 

[switch]

Switch,

all I can do is produce expert medical studies which point to better and more effective weighttraining principles. "We have always done it this way" is not a very sound scientific counterargument.

you are right bradd, science always tops bro theory.

however these "doctors" are the same people who ,for decades advocated prostate screening tests to prevent cancer.now as it turns out it was just a scam to make money off poor old citizens.

these are the same people that advocate composite fillings for teeth, saying "amalgam has mercury! be scared!", but do they tell you that composites contain more than 160 carcinogenic materials ? no.

bradd i dont really trust these researchers to be honest, they are full of BS.dont trust them. :yes:

@Switch: If you don't mind me asking, when you talk about "form," what exactly are you referring to? Does it have anything to do with being either in shape or out of shape? My situation is quite a complex one given that in as much as I would like to resume lifting as heavily as possible as soon as I can, I have to be extremely careful about straining my back right now and making things worse. I used to have very good definition/mass on my triceps but after having practically been away from the gym since mid May, it has practically almost vanished.



I only returned to the gym about two weeks ago and I'm trying to be as careful as I can so that I don't make my back situation worse. It's healed enough to be able to enable me return to working out moderately but with the 30kg I currently do on the tricep machine I don't seem to see that helping or making much of a difference at all as far as definition is concerned. Yet when I try to increase it just to 5 additional kilos right now...I already experience some discomfort on my back so I'm trying to go very carefully

hahahaha i had the back alarm as well, still have it bro.

i mean the exercise form, as in squat form, deadlift form and so on. you have to have absolutely good form in order to get good gainz without injury mate. have you seen my journal? i used to sit in a wheelchair, had nerve injury at L4,L5,S1 , i weighted around 220 lbs at 38%bf or more,so i can relate to your situation. your form will top any other factor in training.

you dont need to do 30kg machine exercises for your triceps to grow man,actually the most effective exercises for your arms are very back friendly.

you need only these two fvckers for big arms mate : pull ups/chin ups AND dips.

dips are back friendly and whats more is that you can add weight to it without the "back alarm". dips are WAY better than any machine or barbell exercise for chest and triceps mass and strength.

pull ups and chins are also spine-friendly and you can add weight to them as well.they will make your biceps and lats grow unlike any other machine exercise.

the basics are the most important yet ignored parts of anything in this bloody world.so yeah improve your form.and for christ's sake DONT use the treadmill, it hurts your back more than any other exercise.

 

[TheStig]

Solid info there switch, I'd rep ya if I could. People really do forget about form, myself included sometimes. Fixing bad form can increase your workload by insane amounts, which in turn leads to muscle & strength gains.

And bradd I hear what you're saying, and don't doubt that what those docs are saying is true, but on what level? When they say it's possible to stimulate muscle growth with one set to failure, how much growth are they talking?
The reason I say that, is because of switch's comment that if it were that easy, everyone would be Arnold.

Good range of info guys, makes for interesting reading.

Edit: In my short time on this earth I've noticed doctors take a very, very conservative point of view on athletics and lifting weights. Back in high school when I'd have to go to the doctor for a check up on any aches and pains, and was in sports, I'd have my doc tell me one thing (mostly to completely stop everything), and the athletic trainer on the other hand would push me through all sorts of pain saying it was ok, tape me up, or give me alternative things to do instead of nothing, depending on what was wrong. She was cool though, she knew when to stop and which pain was bad pain. She was legit too, been with a few colleges and was/is a PT at a nearby hospital.

 

[Frank2500]

Re:

Thanks a lot once more to you both, Brad and Switch. I admire your courage Switch, cause you seem to have really worked hard. I must point out that I'm really not in that much bad shape, though. I way only about 176 lbs and don't have that much at all of any body fat in me because I carefully and strictly watch what I eat.

 

[TheStig]

haha now i know what copernicus felt like when he told the world that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the other way around!
let's not get ahead of ourselves haha


All the links I looked at said the same thing: that one set is as good as multiple sets. Even articles that suggested multiple sets (written by bodybuilders, and not medical professionals) agreed that the two methods produced similar results. Multiple sets may give you slight benefits, but not worth the extra strain on the body and joints according to medical specialists. These very slight benefits simply aren't worth the extra effort and stress you put on your body and joints.

Doctors have concluded that the only people who really benefit from multiple sets are a few ultra elite athletes, for example guys who want to finish the 100 meters dash in 9.8 seconds instead of 10.1 seconds, and professional bodybuilders.

Like i said, it was just a suggestion to our friend Frank based on his medical issues, and based on cutting edge medical research.

Yes, as you reminded me in that last bit, the point of this thread is to help him out with his medical issues, as you did do. I suppose some of us got off topic.

Continuing off the topic though, my personal goal is not bodybuilding or aesthetics, but strength. I know that if I eat right, looks will come, but my purpose in the gym is to become as strong and conditioned as I can be. Therefore, I will continue to do multiple sets haha. I do think bodybuilding type parameters and exercises are fun sometimes though just for the pump, like my 1 bodybuilding day per week.

 

[DanZy]

Brad can you show us any athletes or body builders who train or trained like this? Other than Mentzer, there's no one.
Like I said, it looks good on paper but is very weak in real-world applications. This kind of thing happens all the time in this field.
That last study you posted only showed protein synthesis (which doesn't necessarily mean hypertrophy or strength gain) was elevated after exercise. The entire study was only 24 hours and only consisted of 15 men, that's nothing. If they did a 3 month study, had a larger group of test subjects and focused on a change in body composition, then the results would be usable.

Also, were high volume training detrimental; no one would use it because they simply wouldn't make any progress. Building muscle is really not this easy, you have to work hard

 

[MrNiceGuy23]

Lol, obviously you don't need heavy weights to build muscle, but that's all circumstantial based on your goals.

If you can only bench 10 pounds and your goal is to bench 15 pounds, then sure you can get away with light weights to build enough muscle to do so, but for a person with that strength, 15 pounds constitutes as "heavy weight."

To say you can build large masses of muscle from not lifting heavy weight is just stupid. If I want to increase my bench 50 pounds, I have to use progressively heavier weights to do so.

If the key to benching 315 was just doing 135 all the time, then everybody would be throwing weights around like its nothing.

Yes you can build muscle by using ANY weight, because that's more than using none which is what your body is used to at rest, but to build any serious strength or muscle, you have to use weights that push your muscles to their limits.

 

[Fuglydude]

I've been training close to 15 years, and have never taken more than 2 weeks off in that time frame. In that time I've increased my bodyweight by about 50% and kept my bodyfat% about the same. I've been a competitive athlete in power/speed sports, and have made tens of thousands of dollars off my build/looks as a stripper and have also dabbled in bodybuilding. I have a couple of degrees in bio/health fields and am a health care professional.

I'll tell you right now, there's so simple way to answer this question. Brad, the studies that you highlighted are unfortunately reductionist in nature... that's just the way science is... largely reductionist. I work with a lot of doctors and a couple of them are in exceptional shape. One of them trains 2x/day and definitely performs multiple sets. He'll lift heavy on some lifts and lighter on others depending on his particular training goals.

There are a myriad of different factors to consider when making progress in fitness, especially when it comes to muscular hypertrophy:

- exercise intensity
- general conditioning level of the trainee
- diet
- inflammatory/immunological status
- neuroendocrine status
- stress levels
- sleep/rest/recovery status

I could go on and on.

Frank, the bottom line is that you're gonna have to find the combination of sets/reps/exercises/diet, supplements, etc. that works for you. Generally speaking, however, strength is trained by doing heavy weights w/ low reps. Remember strength is highly neurological in nature, and is generally quite easy to improve. Hypertrophy is a bit more tricky, and as I said you're gonna have to discover your own unique recipe for getting results. Everyone's body and metabolism is very unique.

With regards to Mentzer, I'm a huge fan of his methodology, HIT... but more so for beginners than for an intermediate trainee like myself. I trained HIT-style for about a year or so when I first began working out at 17 years old and put on 25 lbs in my first year w/o any knowledge of diet/supplements, etc. Mentzer, like most elite bodybuilders from the golden age of bodybuilding, was undoubted on lots of anabolics. The main difference between guys now and then is access to a LOT of peptide hormones. Things like HGH, IGF-1, GHRP-6, etc. I find physiques from the golden age a lot more appealing than in modern bodybuilding. Frank Zane is my all time favorite bodybuilder, and a physique that I try to emulate.

Mentzer passed away from cardiac ailments likely due to a genetic predisposition for cardiac issues, as well as anabolic use. Although you'll be hard pressed to find any reputable studies on sudden cardiac death (SCD) and anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) use, there are many case studies present in the literature. From what I've seen, in most cases cardiac hypertrophy combined w/ other vascular risk factors such as unfavorable blood lipid profile, hypertension, etc. contribute to the death of AAS users that succumb from SCD... I've used AAS for a number of years, and I'll tell you right now it really messes with your cardiovascular conditioning!!

 

[Frank2500]

Re:

Guys, I'm really unsure about what the word "form" refers to in this case. Are you guys referring to "physical shape?" Does it have to do with either being in shape or out of shape? In other words, my back injury could be due to the fact that at 175-176 lbs I may not be in good physical shape for the weight lifting exercises I've been doing? If so, what would you guys recommend? Jogging, biking, lots of cardio in general? I really do think nonetheless that I did go a bit too hard with my usual 100lbs on that tricep machine

 

[Fuglydude]

Form refers to how biomechanically sound the body moves when performing any given exercise.

Here's an example of bad deadlift form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4P14V7rqbg

Good deadlift:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyF--C0r8PI

Bad exercise form puts a lot of unnecessary stress on your musculoskeletal system and can dramatically increase the risk of injury.

 

[ProDJ26]

Gonna have to diagree with the masses. The most important factors are

DIET & CONSISTENCY