Watching Friends Destroy Their Lives

[Desdinova]

It's so damn frustrating to watch a good friend, who has been my friend for ten years running head first down a road of destruction. This is what he's been through so far:

- Knocked up his gf
- Proposed shortly after
- Got married while she was 4 months pregnant
- They split up 8 months later
- She slapped a restraining order on his ass
- They get back together

When she slapped the restraining order on his ass, I told him to ditch her and move on. He decided that he needed more anger management classes to fix his problem. I told him that it's not entirely his fault, and that she should be taking the classes with him (she's got a nasty temper).

Needless to say, they got back together. He wants to do it all for his daughter. I reminded him that a family unit is no good if nobody's happy in it. Regardless, he went back to her to try and make it work.

Last Monday, he told me he was finished with her. I talked to him today, and things are "okay" for the time being. They're planning on getting a house together.

I told him to try getting his relationship functioning on all four cylinders before he gets involved in a major investment with her. I haven't heard back yet.

It's so goddam difficult to just stand there and watch a good friend destroy his life by putting it in the hands of a rotten b1tch. The only thing I can do is tell him where he's headed. I just feel so fvcking helpless. But I know there's nothing I can do but wait for his whole life to come crashing down before I can point him in the right direction.

Sometimes, people just have to learn from their own mistakes.

 

[penkitten]

you are exactly right, sometimes people do just have to learn from their own mistakes and heartbreaks.

sometimes as a friend you can steer them in the right path, and sometimes you can just be there when they need you the most. at other times, you have to move in your own path and just wish the friend well on his life journey.

 

[IEman99]

i am kinda goin through the same thing too. my 23 year old sister is dating a 40+ year old dude whose been in and out of jail his whole life. got me thinkin hard about all the things i've learned from this site and especially david D. all girls are slaves to their emotions and needs.....

however in my experience i noticed its not just women. a lot of men dont know how to control their emotions and they end up getting involved with a female that sucks them right in like cat hair in a dustbuster. as i read more and more and became more aware of what was going on around me i thought that every one knew what i knew. however in fact, i realized most people dont know sh*t when it comes to relationships, human nature, psycology, lingustics .....NLP...etc.. this is why they get sucked in...

anyway, back to the issue at hand.

you cant help your friend.. and if i were you i would keep a little distance because of the position you're in. he's obviously "in love" and most likely, his girlfriend can easily break you guys up....and he'll actually LISTEN TO HER instead of you. females have ways of messing up a friendship. ask me how in know.

on the flip side i would get ready for when his situation hits rock bottom because that is where it's going to have to go before he wakes up. i remember when i was an afc and i had one-itis. nobody could tell me shi*t. so just like i discovered with my situation, your homey is going to have to learn the hard way because he's "in love" and that changes everything.

 

[RedPill]

Reminds me of a post I was going to make a couple weeks ago, about dealing with people who are close to you and terminally AFC. I've experienced a lot of that recently, and it's tough to just sit back and watch.

What DO you do?

It could be family members, your parents' friends who watched you grow up, your friends, co-workers, whoever. Probably all of the above. It's really frustrating to deal with people who, for the life of them, will never rise above their social programming. Especially when those people are people who are an integral part of your life.

It sucks when you're at a family gathering and you have to bite your tongue during some of your relatives' stories because it sounds like you're at a chump convention. For example, hearing crap like "RedPill shouldn't you have kids by now?" or (not funny) stories about the ways your aunt depletes your uncle's bank account while he tries to work as many hours as possible to avoid her. That stuff drives me up the wall, but I just sit quietly and smile 'cause I know the opening of my mouth will start a fight.

Or maybe it's like your story Des, where you're trying to help a long-time friend who just doesn't get it, and likely never will. You know that even if you introduced him to these forums, he would reject the information here because it completely goes against everything he knows to be true.

I'll admit, sometimes I get a bit obsessed with just how many people are living in the "AFC matrix" as someone called it in another thread, but it really is a shame how many guys out there will never rise above it, no matter how much you try to help.

 

[WestCoaster]

I have some sad stories, too. One of my best friends moved in with and later married his gf at around 24 ... no way was he done playing the field. The guy has the GQ looks thing and women flock to him. Sadly, he's AFC.

This b-tch he's married to nags him, yells at him, doesn't respect him and isn't even very nice to me. So after 15 or so years of being married -- he's 40 -- I'm thinking, GET OUT, you don't have a kid. What do they do? They have a freaking kid ... they still hate each other by the way.

Two weeks ago I'm up in Seattle for a mini-vacation and want to visit. I live 500 miles away and get to Seattle about twice a year to visit relatives and other friends. I told him I was coming to town about two months in advance to give his beyotch a head's up.

I get there and call him. No answer. I call him again: no answer. No return phone call. My best friend -- also in Seattle -- knows him and called to see if he wanted to join us for brews: no call. Two weeks later, no call or e-mail ... the beyotch shut our a$$es down.

He's total AFC, controlled by a mean, ugly wife. It's freaking sick. I'd rather live impoverished in a third world country than have his life.

There are worse things than being a single AFC ... being a married AFC is by far the worst.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

It's for sh!t exactly like this that I get on my soapbox every day. These are just a small sampling of the stories I could tell myaself and everytime I hear one that runs to the letter the same as one I'm familiar with from my own experience it makes me that much more determined to point it out. I know so many guys (my brother included) who mirror the guy DESDINOVA described. I literally know dozens of guys in this situation and I hear about more every day. I know dozens of guys who've married single mommies and walk into a family situation from the word "go." I know SO fvcken many guys, who loathe coming home from work to "deal with" their passionless, loveless marriages and are more stressed out at home than at work.

But let me add something here that makes this bad situation worse. It's when AFC guys and women tell me things like "damn Rollo, can't you just let them be happy?" or "If their happy, what does it matter?" when I interject or attempt to provide even a slight word of warning for them, let alone an analysis of what I can see is obvious. People take offense, and not just the guy involved, but people on the outside - in fact more so than the interested parties. It's these little pandering sabateurs, who see their own lives in decay or chaos and hope that things will work out for their "friends" when they see them repeating their same mistakes. Most guys who I've counseled who are wrapped up in a damaging inter-personal situation actually seem more open (relatively) to my observations. It's their sicophant "friends" that drive them down this road to ruin, and it's them that would like to clock me in the jaw when I point out that things in the real world don't gel with the ONEitis, soulmate mythology they've wallowed in their entire lives.

 

[Wyldfire]

Des...you can warn your friend until you're blue in the face and it's not going to help. He's not going to listen because he's built up this unrealistic fantasy in his head of how he wants things to be...and he's trying to get that...even if it's impossible with this particular woman.

It sounds like the both of them have a lot of problems. I feel bad for the little girl because if you try to raise kids in the kind of environment they are trying to raise her in they're going to transfer all their own issues and problems to her. It's really a shame.

Buying the house when there is absolutely no stability in his relationship is the most idiotic thing he could do.

Sadly, all you can do is sit back and watch him dig a deeper and deeper hole for himself.

 

[DJDamage]

Get your friend one of those Dr. Phil relationship books. Before I get flammed for this I have to say that I think Dr. Phil relationship advice is a joke. He basically tells people that they should try to coexist in a bad relationship by setting certain boundries instead of leaving for good. Your friend who is so deep into his conviction at least will give Dr. Phil a try with his wife (whom all women thinks he is some sort of a genius) and will be able to still live in a prison but in a prison with rules and order . If that is the best he can do for himself then so be it.

DjDamage

 

[System]

THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO!!!

An AFC friend of mine is seeing this aging girl who is so obviously playing him that it is painful to watch. Well, they have been seeing each other for 4 months or so and at the last rocky patch, it looked like he hit bottom. So, knowing that at the bottom is when most people are ready to change for the better, I gave him explicit directions to this site to check out the bible with Pook/Anti-Dump stuff. The next day, he told me he was going to read it, BUT "insert insecure afc type conversation." I knew he wouldn't go near it, and he didn't, so even till this day he suffers. Apparently he didn't hit bottom. We use to have discussions about this bytch/problems and then it got to the point where I would either grill him on his stupidity or not say anything at all.....he would just not get it. It's the same reason he gets walked on in every other area of his life....he won't MAN UP!

I was discouraged by his lack of self improvement, but I still sent some of this stuff to some other friends. Now, they were not at their low points, but they have read over it and are having their own awakening, good for them. All I ever ask them is if they read any of it, if they say yes then I ask, " Is it working for you?" So far everyone has answered "Yes," and if they bring up any ideas/questions/thoughts, I'll discuss it more, otherwise I leave it up to them and we go on about whatever else we were doing. I don't want their praise for sharing this stuff, I just want them to see the world for what it is so they don't get hurt. That is what it is all about.

For the guy's who don't want to listen, I use to be sorry to say, FVCK'EM! Only the strong survive ( mentally and physically.) I was never the "weak" nor was I ever the "strong," I was stuck somewhere inbetween, but no more. You can't help someone who won't first help themselves. I am sorry to say "FVCK'EM" no more, if they won't try, then they are weak and they will suffer their own fate. The alcoholics, drug addicts, AFC's, losers, whoever will subcumb to natural selection. My real friends know that I would go to the ends of the earth for them, I don't have time for anything else. Cruel, maybe, but no one said life was fair, it is what it is.

 

[Wyldfire]

Get your friend one of those Dr. Phil relationship books. Before I get flammed for this I have to say that I think Dr. Phil relationship advice is a joke. He basically tells people that they should try to coexist in a bad relationship by setting certain boundries instead of leaving for good. Your friend who is so deep into his conviction at least will give Dr. Phil a try with his wife (whom all women thinks he is some sort of a genius) and will be able to still live in a prison but in a prison with rules and order . If that is the best he can do for himself then so be it.

DjDamage

I don't think Dr. Phil is a genius, but nor is he anywhere near as bad as the guys on here claim. I've only seen him once...I was switching channels and saw him talking to a woman who was treating her husband like garbage. I stopped and listened and he was actually pretty good...at least with that situation.

All relationship counsellors try to help their clients keep their relationship together and work out their problems...that's their job...and it's what they are paid to do. Some people want to try to fix their problems and that's okay. Some people just want out and that's okay too.

Dr. Phil didn't go easy on that woman...he was right about everything he said to her, too. That tells me he isn't favoring women over men when placing blame for problems. I've never seen him other than that one time or heard him for that matter. I think a lot of the guys on here assume that because he is associated with Oprah Winfrey (who actually isn't anywhere near as unfair to men as, say, Jerry Springer et al) that he must be anti-male. I'm guessing a lot of you have never even seen or heard him.

 

[Desdinova]

The thing that makes it so difficult is this friend of mine doesn't seem to be a hopeless AFC like the rest of my friends. In fact, when he's not with a woman, he's one of the most confident and fun people you'll ever meet. He honestly doesn't give a 5hit about what others think of him.

He's also one of those guys who can naturally attract women. I've been blown away at how many women focus their attention on him, even when they haven't met him. I shared some pickup and dating tips with him when he was single, and his progress got better.

I can tell he knows I'm right about his relationship. I can see him debating with his gut feeling. It's just a matter of time before he cuts her off, and I'm certain that he'll eventually do it. I just hope he doesn't screw himself too badly before he comes to his senses.

most likely, his girlfriend can easily break you guys up....and he'll actually LISTEN TO HER instead of you.

You are correct about his woman, but she can't control what he does at work. He emails me every day or so to stay in contact. Every couple of months, she'll let him out to play. When she's not around pulling on the choke chain, he's in celebration mode and lets his happiness flow.

 

[WestCoaster]

It's when AFC guys and women tell me things like "damn Rollo, can't you just let them be happy?" or "If their happy, what does it matter?" when I interject or attempt to provide even a slight word of warning for them, let alone an analysis of what I can see is obvious. People take offense, and not just the guy involved, but people on the outside - in fact more so than the interested parties.

Man, ain't that the truth, but here's the big question: Why can't concerned outside observers comment on perhaps the most important thing out there, one's marriage/relationship and how it affects their lives?

I wished to God I had told my best friend (not the guy in my above post) to not marry his current wife. I was his best man and I witnessed his wife's unloving, mean, angry, psycho family up close. I almost told him, "I like your fiance, but tread lightly ... her family is nuts."

Now he has three young kids, a house, and so forth and his wife has drastically changed to the nag that her sister is, and the person her mom is, and that is unloving.

It shouldn't be wrong to speak up on these matters. Heck, we tell buddies all the time, "Don't get that car, it will be a lemon," or, "That's not a good stereo system, get that one over there," or, "Invest in this stock, not that one," and so forth.

But when it comes to relationships we not only don't comment, when we do we're shut down.

Thanks for the great post Rollo -- as always, spot on.

 

[El MonoLoco]

2 words to live by

Never Settle!!!


Take it as you may...


.........hopefully this helps

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I'm a bit aprehensive to post this, but most everyone on the Mature board knows me well enough so,...

I'm kind of in a precarious situation with this myself these days. My nephew is planning to marry his girlfriend this year. The guy is 22 (so is she) and the only chick he's ever been with. He originally proposed to her at 21 right after they'd both graduated and she turned him down, but they kept seeing each other. He accellerated his studies taking on an unreasonable amount of credits so he could graduate at the same time as she did since she entered college sooner than he and, though he wont admit it, I'm certain he chose this university in order to facilitate the relationship.

This is the son of my brother-in-law who committed suicide when his wife (my wife's sister) decided to leave him after 20 years of marriage, who consequently "started"dating (her story) and married a multi-millionaire less than a year after his father was underground. His step-father employed him in his company (in a job completely unrelated to his degree) in a six figure salary and bought him a company car right after he graduated. I'm not sure exactly what changed his girlfriend's mind recently, but the engagement is set now and I see his behavior paralelling that of his father's when he first married my wife's sister.

Needless to say, this is a very touchy subject on my wife's side of the family now considering my sister-in-law's history. I was very critical with her after her first husband's death, but I managed to keep it in check with my wife. Her mother however was (and is) resentful of her sister now and sees this as a grand plot on her sister's part. Her ship had come in and the man she's been with for 20 years (who busted his ass for the better part of that) was now a casualty of that.

My wife is very familiar with my dissapproval of anyone marrying this early and I know she agrees with my POV, but on the same note she wants to be supportive of her nephew. I honestly want to see him successful, but I fear his AFC mindset is only reinforced by this. I have tried on many occasions to tactfully get him to think about what he's doing and the footsteps he's following, without drawing the wrath of his mother or her new husband (and my own wife to a degree). He is open to what I say, but if I'm the one responsible for him calling off the engagement I earn the ire of my wife's side of the family. Even my mother-in-law, who's not foolish, would have problem with this.

 

[Desdinova]

Doesn't it just suck, Rollo?

I remember the wedding day so well of the guy in my post. I did the music at his disorganized wedding as a favor (what wedding planned in two months won't be disorganized?). Anyway, me and his dad went to pick up the sound system. We had never spoken before, but we both shared our worries about how the wedding was a bad idea. Me, him, and my gf were the only people at the wedding who knew she was pregnant. I think his dad was happy to find someone who shared the same thoughts. We both had good reason to be worried about him, and the proof is showing up now.

My nephew is planning to marry his girlfriend this year. The guy is 22 (so is she) and the only chick he's ever been with.

I did the same thing when I was this young, except she ditched me before any wedding plans formulated (thank god). I proposed when she was 17 and I was 21. Very, very dumb thing to do, but I didn't know any better.

It can be so damn difficult coming to terms with the fact that people need to make some very stupid mistakes in their lives. At least if you give them a warning, there's always the chance that they'll keep that warning in the back of their mind. It might help them from going too far into the ditch.

 

[WestCoaster]

Correct Des and Rollo

Desdinova, you wrote this:

**************************************************

I did the same thing when I was this young, except she ditched me before any wedding plans formulated (thank god). I proposed when she was 17 and I was 21. Very, very dumb thing to do, but I didn't know any better.

******************************************************

The last words are the problem for many of us: we didn't know any better. I'm an older guy here and can tell you in my 20's the only reason I didn't get married (twice) was because a voice in my head said, "No f--king way! You'll be miserable." I STILL almost TWICE bit the bullet. Why? I didn't know any better. (Quick review of both of these women today -- miserable wretches.)

There weren't any books, certainly no DJ site or even internet back then; we were punished by an AFC society that told us to succumb to women. That society is still out there, HOWEVER, there are so many tools out there for men today. Well, not self-help books ... no one is writing about the stuff Rollo T. talks about, hopefully something like that will hit soon. But the DJ site, a few decent men's magazines (Men's Health) and so forth provide us with some needed information -- the majority of this site kicks a$$ and should be utilized by all men.

But when it comes to matters of the heart, people don't seek out info, they just knee-jerk react. From Rollo's 22-year old nephew to Des's friend, yeah of course they're making the wrong mistakes. You don't know yourself before you're 30, to be honest. You really don't. Emotional decisions are usually bad ones, and marriage is an emotional decision. Sooner or later some logic has to be thrown in, even if it messes with the wine and roses/romantic mind-set.

THINK people!

* I work at a university and on the side I advise a student recreation club. The club president is a 21-year old DJ and he doesn't even know it. I admire this guy from afar, even though I'm kind of his boss. He's getting great grades and will go to some prestigious grad school. Meanwhile, his gf is this smoking hot musician, who plays and writes her own music and is heading off to Nashville to try and make it ... and if she doesn't, she doesn't care. She just wants to try it. He encourages her to do so, knowing they may stay together or break up ... thus the life of 21-year olds and he gets it. His gf is one of the hotter women around, complete package with brains, beauty, musicianship ... she was practically stalked by another guy last year and almost had to call the cops. Of course this stalker (who I also know) means well, but is a terrible AFC! The gal now can't stand him ... meanwhile, Junior DJ just cruises along with the smoking hot gal.

Newbies and youngsters should REALLY not worry about all that lovey, dovey, marriage sh-t till much later! Just FREAKING RELAX and date as many women as possible between 20 and 30, don't even worry about gfs and love. Just have fun and find yourself ... I'm speaking from the viewpoint of being a terrible p-ssified AFC in my past. Very few young men listen to me when I give this advice.

 

[ElChoclo]

Sometimes you have information which is only useful if delivered in a timely fashion. Delivering that information at the right time can be very useful for a friend, but delivering it late might be useless. I pointed out to a friend of mine that following his father's death the only thing standing between his estranged wife and his family inheritance was his mother. And if she died suddenly, he could look forward to a nice division of his inheritance with his wife.

Since he spent about 8 years living in a shed at the back of his marital home, I considered that he would likely end up quite savaged following his eventual divorce. In fact his persistence in remaining in the marriage was continuing to work against him by increasing the level of "investment" in the marriage by his wife. That is, if you live on bad terms for 20 years your wife will have a greater entitlement than if you had a short term marriage.

Finally, I think he got the picture. Maybe the scary thought of handing over 60% of his wherewithal to his exwife including his inheritance got to him. As opposed to 60% of his current assets, with him to later keep the rest for himself. She could try and drag in his hypothetical inheritance, but such attempts are much less effective when its time of receipt is unknown, as opposed to in your hands.

 

[STR8UP]

The last words are the problem for many of us: we didn't know any better. I'm an older guy here and can tell you in my 20's the only reason I didn't get married (twice) was because a voice in my head said, "No f--king way! You'll be miserable." I STILL almost TWICE bit the bullet. Why? I didn't know any better. (Quick review of both of these women today -- miserable wretches.)

This applies to other facets of life as well. If you follow the herd, don't expect to do any better than they are.

I have had several opportunities to get married. There is no doubt in my mind that if I were to have watched everyone else and imitated "what you're supposed to do" by getting married in my 20's I would either be stuck in a miserable marriage or divorced and bitter by now.

When it comes to finances I could have done what most other people do- go to college, get the best job I can find, and work hard until I'm old and hope I have enough to retire on. Instead I chose to ignore conventional wisdom and do my own thing.

At this point in life I could only imagine what a miserable life I would be living had I gotten hitched early and stuck in a job that I hate.

Don't take ANYTHING for face value, people.

Question ALL decisions in life by asking yourself, "Am I doing this for MY OWN good, or will it only serve to make someone else happy?"

If you really step back and question things from this perspective you might be amazed at how much more clear life becomes.

 

[WestCoaster]

Excellent post STR8UP, especially the point about making others happy.

Besides, when you think about it, are others really that happy? They probably don't sit around all day thinking about your marriage/relationship and if you did break-up/divorce, the "others" would get over it anyway and after a very short period of time, they wouldn't even care.

Honest to God, my friend in my first post did not want to get divorced because his wife (whom he hates) is good friends with his parents.

Amazing ... now he has a lifetime of misery because he's too chicken sh-t to get out and afraid what his parents would think. It's like hell on earth.

 

[STR8UP]

Excellent post STR8UP, especially the point about making others happy.

Besides, when you think about it, are others really that happy? They probably don't sit around all day thinking about your marriage/relationship and if you did break-up/divorce, the "others" would get over it anyway and after a very short period of time, they wouldn't even care.

Maybe "happy" isn't the correct term. "Satisfied" might be more appropriate.

I am pretty lucky to have a family that doesn't harrass me about the fact that I have never been married and have no kids. They are always disappointed when I have a LTR with a good girl that ends. But all in all they respect my choices and I don't get much pressure to conform.

And you are 100% correct about others not being happy.

Most people are so deep in denial they wouldn't know happiness if it slapped them in the face. It's easy to delude yourself into mistaking comfort for happiness.

Honest to God, my friend in my first post did not want to get divorced because his wife (whom he hates) is good friends with his parents.

Amazing ... now he has a lifetime of misery because he's too chicken sh-t to get out and afraid what his parents would think. It's like hell on earth.

That kind of sh!t makes me cringe.

I have a high school friend who is married to a girl who seemed to be his perfect match. Many years and a couple of kids later she gets the "itch" and starts fukking around on him. Now he is in denial about the whole thing, and probably the biggest reason is the fact that he has a family with her.

Fellas, DON'T get attached to a chick unless you are completely sure that you are BOTH ready for it.