The latest man-bashing book

WestCoaster

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The latest? Saying women raise boys better than men. This "scholar" gives hollywood examples of Austin Powers and Leave It To Beav (though the mom there was good, IMO). Tired of the man hating out there:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1579548814/102-3364034-4270557?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

I read about this in the November issue of The Atlantic magazine, and the reviewer is fairly even-handed, but says the author is off-base in that her "research" is all pointed toward proving her point (agenda) in that men are not as good as women in raising boys, which IMO is complete B.S.

My best friend's dad died when he was young and his mom did a good job, then again he had many struggles -- some unwanted pregnancies and bad relationships -- where it was obvious a strong father figure in his earlier days would've prevented the problems. He went to a shrink once who steered him right and it was basic manly stuff he hadn't been told before.

While I do applaud the efforts of some single moms out there and I've dated some, trashing men doesn't help their cause one bit. Actually, I think the courts in this country do men a huge disservice when the children are sent to live with the women 90 percent of the time. Why is that? Why wouldn't a man make a good caregiver?

The author of this book is another person hell-bent on hurting men in this country. Depressing ... and even more depressing is all the people who will buy and believe her bag of sh-t.
 

joekerr31

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society will continued to be screwed up until men and women start treating each other with respect.

in addition, both sexes need to learn that its not an x vs y scenario.

but like everything with industrial societies, nature is something to be twisted and manipulated rather than nurtured and cared for.

the ONE great thing about society today is that the availability of books and information is more than its ever been. i mean, 99% of folks in north america can read. thats the first time ever in mankinds history that so many people are literate.

so we have the tools to overcome all of our hardships and whatever damage today's social construct is creating.

any man, right this moment, can order a book to help him better understand what being a man entails. any woman can buy a book on how to foster a healthy relationship with a man.

so no matter what your family history, you can still change and grow. personal abook called "The Stoic PHilosophy of Seneca" taught me what it meant to be a man.

so the tools are there, the question is whether enough people get off their *ss and start reading them and growing.

or whether they just keep hoping that some woman or man will show up and fix all their problems.
J
 

LittleElf

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You guys are the ones to blame. As long as guys spend all their time trying to attract arrogant ugly females this trend of hating men will continue in America. Things are so sad that most men have accepted that they are pathetic lumps. The next time you think you need to do something for a female just ask yourself if she has done anything for you recently (and sexual favors don't count). Too many American men will sell their soul for some cheap sexual thrill.

American men are working harder and longer than they ever have. The better they do, the more their girlfriends or wives expect out of them. It never ends. The culture in America tells her that she deserves it all because she is a female. You, on the other hand, are a goofy inept person who can never get anything right.

Thankfully, there are many places where the girls are young, beautiful, and don't accept American feminist beliefs. I am just surprised that more American men haven't left for these places. Strange that the earth's most beautiful and least selfish girls seem to want American males, yet the American male doesn't seem to want them.
 

joekerr31

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i agree to a degree.

i think a lot of women have been programmed to see themselves as the prize. they see madonna videos and come to believe that a man should be thankful to even touch her.

i mean, its been 20 years of mtv when you think about it. so a 30 year old today has been getting brainwashed since she was 10 that how the world works is: woman is an instrument of sex, man is an instrument of means. enslave the man with your sexuality.

and it worked ... well sort of.

it worked to the extent that a lot of men said 'fine, whatever, i just dont want to be alone" and married these women.

problem is that life is nothing like tv. people dont stay beautiful forever. people dont come home after a 10 hour work day and get into their tuxedos and eat steak by candlelight.

real life is the flu, bills, screaming kids, broken car, *sshole boss, etc.

and i completely agree with you that men are half to blame in all this. Men have bought into the MTV crap also. they want their women to be part time porno stars for them. it's gone from I want a woman who cooks me dinner to I want a woman who takes it up the *ss.

If men started snatching up the good women and treating them right, versus chasing after the b*tches who really have done nothing more than spend some time to make themselves look like madonna, everything would work itself out.

im guilty of this myself. ive let hot chics get away with things that id never let anyone get away.

but im older and wiser now and truly enjoy putting a hb in her place.

but all in all i think both sexes need to stop the he said she said game and people need to get back to fundemental values such as honest, trust and committment.

J
 

Rollo Tomassi

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Drawn from a joint study I did at UNR for child psych back when I lived in Reno.

“The Family Arrangements that Work Best for Children”

Father and Child Reunion (2004) is a meta-analysis of hundreds of studies from the U.S. and other countries. Many of the studies look at what leads to children doing the best and worse after divorce. The documentation for these findings is in Father and Child Reunion.

These are the family structures ranked according to the ones in which children do the best—the last three after divorce:

Intact family

Shared Parent Time With the Following Three Conditions: the child has about equal time with mom and dad parents live close enough to each other that the child does not need to forfeit friends or activities when visiting the other parent, no bad-mouthing

Primary father time (primary father custody).

Primary mother time

Perhaps the most surprising is that children raised by single dads do better in more than 20 areas of measurement in comparison to children raised by single moms. These measurements include academic progress, social competence, psychological health and physical health.

Caveat - This does not mean that men are better fathers than women are mothers. Single fathers usually have more income and education, tend to be older, and are more self-selected, thus more highly motivated. Single dads in the year 2004 are similar to female doctors in the 1950s: exceptionally motivated.

One reason, though, that children on average do so much better with single dads is ironic— it is rare for the single mom to disappear from the child’s life. To moms’ credit, they are more likely to stay involved; to dad’s credit, dads are more likely to facilitate mom’s involvement than mom is to facilitate dad’s. In brief, the child living primarily with dad is more likely to live in conditions that come closer to the intact family than is the child living primarily with mom.

Why this difference? One clue appears to be the bad-mouthing gap. When Glynnis Walker, in her research for Solomon’s Children, asked children years after divorce which parent bad-mouthed the other, the children were almost five times more likely to say “only mom says bad things about dad” than vice versa. Also, dads are more likely to ask for mom’s input and value mom’s input, thus encouraging mom to remain involved. Perhaps as a result, when children live with only their moms, the parents are nine times as likely to have conflict as when children live with their dads.

These findings are significant for two reasons. First, because in high-conflict divorces if we conclude that the parental conflict will prevent 50-50 involvement from working, we tend to revert to primary mother time, when in fact it’s far more likely that with primary father time the parents will have less conflict, and that the children will have more of both parents, and will do better.

Second, once primary father time is understood to have these advantages, and therefore becomes the first choice of the law if there is conflict, it eliminates any incentive the mom may feel to make the divorce appear to be high-conflict because she knows that will lead to her having the child. Once she knows the likely alternative to equal involvement is primary father involvement, the incentive is to reduce conflict and have equal involvement—which is better than primary father involvement. If, of course, the dad is the primary alienator, the current preference for the mother should remain.

Let’s look at why the following three conditions seem to work best or children after divorce:

First, the child has about equal time with mom and dad.

Second, parents live close enough to each other that the child does not need to forfeit friends or activities when visiting the other parent

Third, no bad-mouthing

One-Parent Stability vs. Two-Parent Stability.

Until now, we have understandably thought that amid the instability of divorce, children experience the most stability by staying primarily with the parent who has been their primary parent. I call this “one-parent stability.” However, research shows that one-parent “stability” in reality creates psychological instability. Children with minimal exposure to the other parent after divorce seem to feel abandoned, and often psychologically rudderless-- even when they succeed on the surface (e.g., good grades).

Children with both parents, and especially children with substantial father contact, do better--even when socio-economic variables are controlled for. They do better on their SATs, on their social skills, on their self-esteem, in their physical health, in their ability to be assertive, and, surprisingly, the more dad involvement the more a child is likely to be empathetic. These children are far less likely to suffer from nightmares, temper tantrums, being bullied, or have other signs of feeling like a victim.

These findings occur even though one and two-year old children of divorce with developmental disabilities are fifteen times more likely to be given to fathers to raise, and children who are raised by moms and have problems with the 5 D’s (drinking, drugs, depression, delinquency, disobedience) are most likely to be given to their dads to “take over” in early teenage years. The propensity of dads to take on the more challenging children and yet still have positive outcomes speaks highly of dads’ contributions. Nevertheless, these children still do not do as well as when the children are in an intact family, or when the involvement of both mom and dad are closer to equal.

Why does the approximately equal involvement of both parents appear so important, and even more crucial after a divorce? No one knows for certain, but here appears to be three rarely-discussed possible reasons that emanate from “between the lines”. I believe they are crucial to a cutting-edge understanding of child development:

The child is half mom and half dad. The job of a child growing up is to discover whom it is. Who is it? It is half mom and half dad. It is not the better parent. It is both parents, warts and all. So we are not talking about fathers’ rights, mothers’ rights or even the child’s right to both parents. We are talking about a new paradigm: the child’s right to both halves of itself. Psychological stability seems to emanate from the child knowing both parts of itself.

The implications for the court is that there is much less need for psychological testing of both parents—if the child does better by being about equally with both parents, warts and all, we don’t have to conduct a court battle as to which parent has the fewest warts. The “warts” that matter are bad-mouthing and alienation of the other parent; the desire to move the child away from the other parent; being consistently physically abusive; being sexually abusive.

Checks and balances. Dads and moms, like Republicans and Democrats, provide checks and balances. Moms tend to overstress protection; dads may overstress risk-taking—there has to be a balance of power for the child to absorb a balance of both parents’ values. One parent dominating tends to leave the child with a stereotyped and biased perspective of the values of the minority parent, and ultimately the child is unappreciative of that part of itself. The minority parent becomes a straw-man or straw-woman, thus that part of the child becomes a straw self. The minority parent becomes undervalued, thus that part of the child becomes undervalued to itself.

Overnights. As children enter adolescence, they connect best with the values of the parents during the peaceful moments prior to bedtime, often the only time when the pressures of peers recede and the presence of parents’ values can reenter the child’s psyche.

Second, Parents Living Close.

When children have to forfeit friends or activities to be with the other parent, resentment toward the parent is created just when parental involvement is most needed in balance with independence. Whether during the earlier years or adolescence, neither one can be forfeited.

Third, No Bad Mouthing

Criticizing the other parent is criticizing the child—it is criticizing the half of the child that is the other parent. As the child looks in themirror and sees that his or her body language is the body language of the criticized parent, the child fears she or he might also be an “irresponsible jerk,” “liar,” or whatever…

Bad-mouthing the other parent is the most insidious forms of child abuse because the child feels she or he has no place to go—arguing with the parent doing the bad-mouthing makes the child the parent’s enemy; reporting it to the parent being bad-mouthed threatens to lead to parental arguments which further erode the child’s stability.

Those are the three most important conditions after divorce for the best likely outcome for the child. If dad is so important, though, what are his conscious and unconscious contributions?
 

Rollo Tomassi

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DJ DAMAGE: Sh!t like this drives me fvcken insane. One of the reasons I haven't written a bokk up to this point is because I've always felt I lacked the credentials in my education to have professional legitimacy. I'm of the opinion that when a person actually puts psychology into print they should have the corresponding education with which to back it up. Yet apparently this isn't enough to hinder armchair psuedo-pop psychologists like Dr. Phil, Dr. Laura, the charlatan that wrote this book and the ones who fill the self-help sections in every book store, and most certainly that freak-snake oil peddler on E-Harmony.com. So perhaps legitimacy isn't the issue I should be concerned with?

In all honesty though I am planning on publishing in the very near future. It's something I'd planned to do when I decided to double major back in Reno. I'm a transplant here in Florida and I need to establish residency before I can continue my post grad work, so that gives me a solid year to write in the meantime. My personal reservations of legitimacy aside, I can't begin to tell you how difficult it is to have anything published that runs counter to this poopularized ideology of 'women-as-victim' that is so pervalent today, this book WESTCOASTER has brought to our attention being a good example. Even essays or articles that would in anyway characterize men in the role of anything less that ridiculous, no matter how well sourced and sited, rarely see 'official' publication in order for universities and other institutions to avoid being tagged as sexist, even from within their own staff.

On a brighter note, there is always self-publication and e-publication so those are definitely the avenues I'll be exploring, but then you run the risk of being lumped into the likes of D'Angelo, Jefferies and to a lesser degree Strauss. I certainly wouldn't be releasing any DVDs on how to pick up chicks with magic tricks, but I don't want to have a PUA association in anything I write. Not that I don't think that has it's place, but I'm much more about the DJ mentality and positive masculinity.
 
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Rollo Tomassi

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Sorry to double up here, but I checked out the reviews on Amazon of this book and did a little scrounging on Google and I can surmise that this book is insignificant really. It's just another 'You-can-have-it-all-and-feel-good-about-it-too-baby' book to be added to 2 dozen or so other books just like it.

Raising a generation of AFCs takes dozens of books like this, but not to worry, it only establishes the validity of the 20% of men being rewarded with fvcking 80% of women. That's why we'll be here, ready to enlighten, deprogram and re-condition AFCs. Hospitals aren't in business because everyone is healthy.
 

LittleElf

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Rollo...
What if all the women you are f****** are pigs? Seems the trend these days. I prefer quality over quantity. BTW, please don't tell me that there are tons of beautiful girls in your area. If you are living in the USA this is no longer possible.
 

Nightwing

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The bottom line is that boys and girls raised in homes headed by single moms is bad. They are more likely to be criminals, drug addicts, and future single parents. If you look in the prison system and find the common denominatior for each of those guys is that they didn't grow up with a father in thier lives.

I looked at the reviews for the book, it seems like crap. NO woman can raise a man successfully.
 

WestCoaster

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Here's what I don't get about these books, the women's movement, etc. ...

Let's say an author has a premise that women can do a good job of raising kids on their own. How about writing that premise WITHOUT bashing men?

The women's movement lost steam IMO when everything was blamed on men. Women weren't seen as self-starters, but as survivalists from evil men. And the movement continues on like this. Men are evil, women are good is their theme ... and it's falling on deaf ears more and more each day.

I also don't understand why men aren't given custody more often. Men are automatically ruled out by most judges. I don't get it. I know plenty of single women who just keep parading boyfriends through the house, sleeping with them, ditching them, then going on to another ... yeah, like that's good for the kids.

Most guys I know would in no way do that to their children.

I'm always amazed that books like these have so much support.
 

Wyldfire

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Guys...stop for just a minute and think about something.

I know the male bashing and how men (expecially white men) are made to feel guilty for every wrong ever done to anyone in history hurts, is frustrating and makes you mad. However...consider this...
Complaining about it does nothing at all to fix the problem or change anything. Allowing yourselves to become embroiled and embittered by it only adds fuel to the fire. So many men on this site have been reacting with anger. That anger makes them say things that are just as whacked as the things that got you so upset in the first place.

That has to stop for any kind of progress to be made. You can complain and get angry about feminism until the cows come home and it's NOT going to change things. If you turn into someone who is very negative and blames women for everything it's only going to cause more women to buy into the things that are hurting you. You've got to STOP contributing to the cycle. If you don't it's not going to stop or improve. The radical feminists are nasty, nasty people...we ALL know that. And they are counting on men getting angry and lashing out. Everytime you last hout you play into the hands of those radical man haters. You give validity to what they are claiming. Everytime you accuse women of lying about rape, getting pregnant on purpose, wanting child support to help provide for their child...etc, etc....ever time women hear men blame them they are given more and more reason to believe that men are bad.

There is too much of the complaining about feminism and too much blaming of women going on around here. You've got to stop that and look at what you CAN control and change...YOU. You can't force women or society to change. It's possible to lead both to change...but only by changing yourselves. Taking responsibility and acknowledging your mistakes, flaws, poor choices and screw ups allows you to learn and improve. Blaming and complaining teaches you only how to become a victim. That gets you nowhere and prolongs progress. Improvement can't be made until you strip all the crap away and get honest with each other and yourself.

I know I've been preaching this pretty relentlessly, but I'm doing that in an attempt to help those here who need help pulling it together.

Threads like this aren't helping anyone improve their cituations...it's only encouraging anger, blaming and victimhood. If you truly want the situation to improve, you CAN NOT afford all that negative stuff.
 

WestCoaster

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While I agree with Wyld on some points, ignoring the situation and not calling out this blatant anti-man theme across the country is just helping the man-bashers.

All I'm doing is making people aware of the situation. I used to be numb to it until I got to this board. And while I don't watch much TV, when I do, I'm very aware of the "men are helpless goofballs" theme on about 90 percent of the commercials. I've even e-mailed some corporations and called them out, and they even got back to me.

Before this board, I drove by this billboard that was up for about a YEAR in Seattle. It was for Dodge trucks and it said, "More reliable than most husbands." My best friend drove by it every day and wasn't outraged until I pointed this out, then he agreed, way over the top.

His reply, "They should have a billboard that says, 'Puts out more than most wives.'"

Hilarious!

There's a clear, concise agenda to bring down men, pus-yfy the country, and take masculinity away. It's rather obvious to me. The LAST thing this country needs is more boys being raised only by women.
 

Wyldfire

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Originally posted by WestCoaster
While I agree with Wyld on some points, ignoring the situation and not calling out this blatant anti-man theme across the country is just helping the man-bashers.

All I'm doing is making people aware of the situation. I used to be numb to it until I got to this board. And while I don't watch much TV, when I do, I'm very aware of the "men are helpless goofballs" theme on about 90 percent of the commercials. I've even e-mailed some corporations and called them out, and they even got back to me.

Before this board, I drove by this billboard that was up for about a YEAR in Seattle. It was for Dodge trucks and it said, "More reliable than most husbands." My best friend drove by it every day and wasn't outraged until I pointed this out, then he agreed, way over the top.

His reply, "They should have a billboard that says, 'Puts out more than most wives.'"

Hilarious!

There's a clear, concise agenda to bring down men, pus-yfy the country, and take masculinity away. It's rather obvious to me. The LAST thing this country needs is more boys being raised only by women.
My best friend lives in Seattle and from what he tells me that area is really bad about belittling men on billboards. I honestly haven't seen that anywhere else and I have travelled by car up and down the east coast numerous time. The only out of line billboards I've seen were down south and they were radically pro-life and disturbing to my children when they saw them. They showed aborted babies on a billboard, which is very disturbing for a lot of people and should not be allowed put up like that. Church billboard...private property and absolutely disgusting.

My friend says Seattle is a bit of a feminist mecca. We became friends while ganging up on a particularly nasty radical feminist and driving her into fits of rage. Just from the things he's told me it really sounds like that area is far more anti-male than other places in the country.

Pointing it out is cool...and necessary. But doing so responsibly with pointing out that radical masculinists are just as bad is imperative. Too many guys end up becoming just as bad as those radical feminists which only hurts men in the long run. It's a delicate issue and you need to take extra care to keep a healthy balance.
 

( . )( . )

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Originally posted by AmIAFC
Actually, it's not a feminist court system. The State understands that by not awarding the female custody of at least half of the "marriage pool," the female is more than likely to ask for State aid, while exhausting other State-funded resources to support herself and any dependent. Basically, the State doesn't want to be stuck with $upporting the woman, and so they'd rather see the money come out of the ex-husband's wallet as opposed to theirs.
And who does that fvck over genius? Oh yeah the MAN. Can you do the rest of the math?
 

Wyldfire

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Originally posted by AmIAFC
Actually, it's not a feminist court system. The State understands that by not awarding the female custody of at least half of the "marriage pool," the female is more than likely to ask for State aid, while exhausting other State-funded resources to support herself and any dependent. Basically, the State doesn't want to be stuck with $upporting the woman, and so they'd rather see the money come out of the ex-husband's wallet as opposed to theirs.
You're wasting your time with titboy. He thinks no men should ever have to be responsible for helping support the children they help make...even if they planned them. He also thinks women who say they were raped are liars. Maybe someday he will get over whatever woman hurt him and be able to move on with his life in a bit more positive a state of mind. Anyhow...you're not going to get anywhere. No amount of logic or common sense makes any difference.

You're right, though...it's not about men or women when it comes to child support and court. The child's rights and needs will always come ahead of both of the parents'...as it should be. The tax payers aren't particularly keep on having to pay for people's unprotected sexual activity. Nor should they have to. I shouldn't have to pay for someone else's irresponsibility and neither should you. You pay for your own irresponsibility, period. This is another case of society wanting something for nothing and having a sense of entitlement. If someone wants to be certain not to have a child they need to refrain from having sex altogether. If they want to have sex then they need to acknowledge the risks and protect themselves as best they can while understanding that if a baby results, it's their responsibility to support...period.
 

joekerr31

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not surprised if seattle is swarming with anti-male attitudes. the area is populated by rich afc computer geeks. they are women's favourite target for male bashing.

high afc concentrations mean the few non-afc have so many options they wam bam thank you mam all over town. so many women fighting over a few alpha males that they all get the man-hating thing going.

its a hypothesis anyway.

as for all this crap about the courts and everything else.

this is what it boils down to in my mind. if you marry the wrong woman you will eventually find yoruself in HELL.

i dont care if its the courts. i dotn care if you stay married. one way or another your life will slide into the abyss.

i do believe that there are a HUGE amount of women in this world that are absolutely ruthless when it comes to men. they will use whatever is at their means to get what they want. and when they ultimately don't end up with what they want (ie. a lifetime of being treated like a princess) they will do everything in their power (without breaking the law to such a degree that they end up in jail) to take every last thing they can get from that man, including his dignity.

now, that said, guess what guys, WE ARE TO BLAME WHEN OUR LIVES GO TO HELL.

Most men are just as shallow and materialistic as women. they want a hot ass more than they want a woman that will treat them right.

if men went for the women that TREATED them right, instead of the ones with the hot ass, womankind everywhere would whip into shape overnight.

but that ain't going to happen and women know it. all these women that men complain about, guess what, they know something.... they know that as much as you complain as long as they got a hot ass they can get away with whatever they want. and if you don't let them, some other idiot will.

so my view on the world is that 90% of men and women, equally, have their heads so far up their own asses they couldn't tell you if it was day or night.

about 10% of men adn women have their heads screwed on straight. are honest, upfront, caring, etc. and guess what, you can spot them from a mile away, they wear their virtue on their sleeves.

so that's what it comes down to though. guys can talk about how much they want a "good" woman, but as long as what they want first and foremost is the sex kitten, they'll continue to end up with women who see them in the same opportunistic, shallow light as well. you used my ass, i want your money - that's the basic paradigm of the world today.

im sure ill get flamed for suggesting that most hb8-10s are NOT marriage material, but so be it.

the wrong woman will eventually destroy you (or try to). So choose carefully my friends.

choose very very carefully.

J
 

Wyldfire

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See joekerr...that's what I've been talking about regarding taking responsibility. Just doing that will give a person so MUCH more power in their lives...and far more control. Why? Because when you recognize something you could have done differently to have a better outcome you are more apt to make better choices in the future. In truth there is knowledge and wisdom and in knowledge and wisdom there is power and control. As much as men piss off women and women piss off men it doesn't do anyone any good to complain about it. That changes nothing. Changing YOURSELF and the choices you make allows you to stop contributing to the problem. THAT is the secret to fighting what is wrong with society, and that alone. It's more important than even recognizing the problems with society. We're all a part of that society and it begins one person at a time...you've got to recognize the problems with yourself before you can change anything.

See...I'm really not such a miserable old biotch afterall...just a very wise gal who is trying to teach some very, very simple things that really CAN change your lives for the better.
 

joekerr31

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wyld,

haha, i like your posts generally.

we do differ a bit in our outlooks on various problems people have though :p

mostly where i see our differences cropping up is when a good honest guy get the wool pulled over his eyes (like Trim recently did). You tend to distribute blame evenly, whereas i tend to lay into the b*tch a bit more :p

I very much agree that the answer to any problem is YOUR reaction to it and how you decide to deal with. in that we are on the same page for sure.

but also part of my ideology is that it sickens me when i see a kind, decent human being (both men AND women) who get lied to, cheated on, and emotionally trashed by someone.

yes, it will be a growing event for hte person who got hurt. they will grow and become stronger for it. but at the same time, its sick and disgusting to see good people get trashed by selfish *ssholes.

if this were a woman's forum and i was hearing from women who got treated liek crap by various guys, id be just as blunt about how those guys are f*cks and they are better off without them.

hehe.

society has become ultra shallow and people don't even realize it. its like being in a hot tub and the water tempurature rises ever so slowly, but stay in there long enough and before you know it you've been boiled.

we've deceded into this horribly shallow society for so long now, people don't even know what morality is any more.

J
 
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