The catch-22

[becker]

Ok guys, here's sort of the catch-22 I've noticed here.

First off, us guys need to approach the girl, and approaching her means that she basically will know you are interested in her, so it's sort of difficult to have leverage from the start.

The way I've tried to get around this is to find a reason besides being interested in her, to go up to her. For example, in a clothing store, I'd go up to her in order to ask her about clothing, then try to turn it into a humorous situation.

See, when we try to approach, having a reason other than trying to get the girl to go out with you immediately is pretty key because if you don't, then you'll have to find a way to dig yourself out of a hole from the get-go.

 

[CrazyGoNuts]

well i wouldnt say we lose leverage by approaching them. They go out lookin like slvts for the entire purpose of guys lookin at them and talkin to them. Sure, they might be in control initially but its all about gettin the attention off them and why SHE should talk to YOU after that.

 

[Ol'BlueEyes]

You just go in cold?

That's why you establish eye contact, smile, and apply the 3 second rule.

 

[legolas]

Good point becker!!!

I've noticed the catch-22 myself while reading Pook and Fingers. Pook says not to flirt and to keep her guessing whether or not you're actually interested in her and to only show interest by sking her for the number, while Fingers is more of a flirting type of guy.

In my experience, I've noticed that some girls will respond well to flirting and will become interested because of it. These girls are usually the ones who are desperate for attention, so anything you give them, they eat it up!!

Most girls are not as big attention seekers, since they receive plenty of it during the day, so if you display interest right from the start they'll tend to ignore you or put you in the "yet-another-horny-dog" category. With these girls if you talk to them but display no interest whatsoever, and it is really hard to do so since if you have interest in them IT SHOWS, then they become intrigued.

I've personally found attention seekers to be way too needy and clingy, elthough I've had only two girls as reference. Neediness and clingyness are both unattractive and sometimes even downright scary!!!! Trust me I've experienced it! You have to experience this one for yourself to fully understand what it does to a girl when you are the attention seeker.

That said, I have found in my experience that when I had almost no interest in a girl, but I talked to her and maintained an interesting conversation, they were somehow attached and attracted. My results are a bit skewed since it has only happened with teenage girls, and most of you know how clingy they are and how fast they cling.

As they grow, they develop more self-esteem and self-respect and that helps them become less clingy and more self-assured.

All in all, if you have interest towards a girl, you can't not show it!!

No matter how hard you try and hide it it's going to show. If you truly want to hide it, then you need to not have it in the first place. A catch-22 of course But, it is not neccessary to hide your interest in order to attract the girl. I think it's purely a matter of focus. If you see a hottie and feel the urge to slam into those soft, tight buttocks of her, or whatever your fantasy is, you're focusing purely on looks and on the physical side.

If you can learn to say to yourself "Okay so she's hot and I'd like to wax her, but what about personality?" if you can now focus on finding out what kind of personality she has, and whether she'd be compatible with you and could be a good candidate for an LTR, then things will look better. Most guys just go "Ah screw it, who cares about personality. She's hot and I'd like to bang her and that's all that matters"

That's as far as theory goes, now I must go and fill it in with experience and see how it works in real life.

 

[balengar]

one way i found works pretty consistently is qualifying early on.

The hotter the chick, the earlier I start to qualify her in the initial convo.

What has happened is that it puts them on the defensive....they feel like they have to explain themselves (why they are so insecure/uncoordinated/uneducated/etc.) to me....and then i guess subconsciously follows feelings that they arent good enough for me (not impressing at all to me).....even though I WAS THE ONE APPROACHING THEM (in interest).

It flips the whole mode of the initial pickup/convo and they are more and more consistenly willing to give me the digits (because i am now "better" than they are).

 

[ManOMan]

both Legalos and balenger are correct.

Qualify EARLY. When I meet a new girl, they rarely say "DAMN! YOU ARE HOT!!"

They say things like "what school do you go to? how far are you?, "You are pretty funny", They try to get me involved in stimulating conversation

See the differnce? They are Evaluating my personality right off the get-go. They arent focusing on my looks.

Guys should do the same. Do things to show you are interested in seeing if she is "good enough for you" beyond looks. This disarms them right away. Because they see you as a man who isnt phased by her beauty.

Its like when you go to a car dealer, you see a Beautiful firey red Ferrari. You start asking the salesman about performance, gas mileage, mechanicals, and all the while he is thinking "C'mon!!! This is a FERRARI! "

 

[xblitz44x]

"approaching her means that she basically will know you are interested in her, so it's sort of difficult to have leverage from the start."

The fvck-up in your observation comes from the misperception that her knowing that you like her serves as some type of disadvantage. If you knew that a woman that you are interested in was hitting on you, it certainly wouldn't be working against her. I think if you stop thinking in terms of leverage, and struggling for power, it'll do a whole lotta' good.

"For example, in a clothing store, I'd go up to her in order to ask her about clothing, then try to turn it into a humorous situation."

That'll work against you everytime. Especially if she is interested in you. You're not hiding anything when you approach her. She knows why you're approaching her, unless she's incredibly naive. It just seems very insecure that you are trying to come up with other reasons because you're embarrased and unconfident enough to embrace the way you feel about her. Making up an alterior motive isn't necessary at all. Just be direct, forward, charming, and ask her out.

"See, when we try to approach, having a reason other than trying to get the girl to go out with you immediately is pretty key because if you don't, then you'll have to find a way to dig yourself out of a hole from the get-go."

Which hole? I don't understand how it's going to make you unattractive if you let her know that you think she is attractive. Personally, it seems more to me like you're looking for a way to dampen the blow of rejection. You're creating a back-door incase you get bad vibes you can always protect your ego and make it seem like 'your'e just asking about clothes' (or whatever your exuse is). If that's the case I'm disappointed that you haven't handled the issue previously.

 

[ManOMan]

I agree that the basis of the fear in letting a girl know you are attracted to her, is fear of rejection

You always want to be ready to save face incase she doesnt like you "I dont think you're attractive!! I was just trying to make new frriends!"

There are 2 sides to this issue

the first forget rejection and just go for it! so what if she isnt into you! there are a billion other girls who might

The other is the theory that as soon as a girl knows you find her attractive, she gets some sort of leverage, and takes the "power" away from men (and this fact is indisputable, I have seen this MANY times)

 

[xblitz44x]

"The other is the theory that as soon as a girl knows you find her attractive, she gets some sort of leverage, and takes the "power" away from men (and this fact is indisputable, I have seen this MANY times)"

I'd like to dispute it with you. I think you'll see that most of the time it's in your own head. The only 'power' that she has (or that exists at all) is power that you've given her which was created in your own head.

Lets assume you're at a little restaurant/bar/grill type of place. You're standing at the bar waiting for your name to be called for a table. It's Happy Hour so there are pleanty of people just standing around, chatting, talking, having drinks, laughing, winding down the work week. You're standing with a group of maybe 2 other friends. Directly behind your group is a group of a few ladies. You notice one in particular.

You lock eyes and hold EC for a few seconds. Then you both look away. You look up about 30 seconds later and find each other locking eyes again. At this point you both know that you're interested in each other. The eye contact is there. People don't lock eyes without reason.

Now, what power would you be giving up by approaching her and making simple conversation? What disadvantage are you at by introducing yourself and your friends? What leverage is there? Do you think she doesn't want you to approach her?

She doesn't have power of you. Your own insecurity has it's power over you and her not showing a favorable reaction to your advances sparks your own insecurities. And then you, being unaware, quick jump and say "She has power now!". No, she never had power. Your reaction to her caused your own paralysis.

If you can work that out, you'll see that this game, meeting women, has nothing to do with a battle, or rules, or anything like that at all. All you have to do is be comfortable enough with yourself and not let your own insecurities fvck up opportunties that are constantly presented to you.

 

[ManOMan]

Blitz

Im a firm believer that women are raised to use their sexual prowess, attractiveness and allure as leverage

Dont tell me you never heard a girl say "Ohh I got that guy wrapped around my finger, he is like a little puppy dog, Oh he thinks Im hot, I can get anything I want"

Is the struggle of power real or imagined? You dont think there are some women out there, who as soon as they found out a guy finds them attractive - they use the power leverage to their own advantage?

This is not something just in a mans head, and the fact that we are discussing this implies the phenomenon exists

There has always been a battle of the sexes, you can deny it if you want

 

[thebigMac]

hi everyone i have been reading this site for about 6 months now and have been successfully improving my DJ skills over that time. this is my first post though! i have also noticed the catch 22 that becker is talking about and am trying to make sense of it...
in approaching a girl you give her "power" by giving her the option of acceping you or rejecting you, yet at the same time you must approach her if you ever want anything to happen.

there is one camp of people on this site who speak of indifference to intrigue girls (because they are used to so many guys hitting on them blah blah) and another camp of people who speak of approaching many girls, smiling, being c&f, etc. at first, these seem contradictory, and it can be misleading to budding DJ's like myself.

the conclusion that i came to is this: from my field experiece, just simply bing indiferent isnt intriguing, it just makes you look cold. it is ALWAYS good to make eye contact, smile, aproach a girl, be c & f, etc. INDIFFERENCE is a good tool to use WITH the above tecniques. for example, at a party being funny around a girl, and then sundenly ignoring her for a while and talking to other people.
OR going on a fun date with a girl then not calling her for a while.
regardless, you MUST approach the girl! you MUST face the possibility of rejection if you ever want to be successful with women!

comments? ideas?

 

[Billy Bob]

I'm just like, B I T CH, wanna F U CK ?

They ususally can't resist my bisexual charm.

be sure to ask if they are on birth control.

 

[becker]

Thanks to all you guys who responded. I always like it when there are different perspectives on a particular issue. It helps to expand the idea and see other ways to view a situation.

First off, xblitz, I think that I'm not so much in fear of rejection as I am with just the awkwardness that may result. This girl works in a store that I go to almost exclusively to shop for clothes. That makes a difficult situation because if she rejects me, then I'll have to see her all the time unless I find out her schedule and avoid her. However, it's not that big a deal either I guess.

The main point is that I think that if you are to go about approaching a girl, the best way to go about it is to just enjoy being around her, and make it so that she enjoys being around you. That's sort of the initial step in my book. None of this "I want to sleep with you" sort of stuff. No ulterior motives.

If you can develop some common ground or solid basis for building a relationship with this girl, then it can become more through the natural course rather than forcing the issue.

Most guys seem to approach women with the wrong mental state. For example, if you approach a girl cold and the first thing that comes out of your mouth is asking her out on a date, I feel that the disadvantage/loss of leverage comes not from her knowledge of your interest, but rather her knowledge that your interest in her is based almost purely on her looks.

That, to me, is the problem, and so far, the only good way around this is to do what I said above. Does anyone else have a way that they've used to resolve this?

 

[thebigMac]

Becker: i think in a way we are all over analyzing this. One of the basic DJ articles that i first read on this site said dont analyze things, just go out, grow some balls, and fvcking do it. if you are in great, if you get rejected then who cares, learn from it and move on. So what if she works in a store that you shop at, akwardness is a situation that you create in your head. and seriously, you are only going to see her when you buy clothes. if you can achieve this state of mind you will be much better off

 

[becker]

Originally posted by thebigMac
Becker: i think in a way we are all over analyzing this. One of the basic DJ articles that i first read on this site said dont analyze things, just go out, grow some balls, and fvcking do it. if you are in great, if you get rejected then who cares, learn from it and move on. So what if she works in a store that you shop at, akwardness is a situation that you create in your head. and seriously, you are only going to see her when you buy clothes. if you can achieve this state of mind you will be much better off

Good tip, bigMac, thanks. The main point I was trying to make was more the words in the italics above.

 

[AMF]

Originally posted by xblitz44x
"approaching her means that she basically will know you are interested in her, so it's sort of difficult to have leverage from the start."

The fvck-up in your observation comes from the misperception that her knowing that you like her serves as some type of disadvantage. If you knew that a woman that you are interested in was hitting on you, it certainly wouldn't be working against her. I think if you stop thinking in terms of leverage, and struggling for power, it'll do a whole lotta' good.

blitz, as prosemont was explaining in your behemoth of a thread over in Tips, PERCEPTION is amenable to manipulation. By not approaching you are manipulating the girl's PERCEPTION of your relative worth. The way in which human minds tend to speculate and theorise means that * *IF SHE FINDS YOU ATTRACTIVE ANYWAY* * not approaching communicates that you are either simply happy, contented, or in some way superior (or all three; in any permutation, you communicate your worth.) The reason is partially analogous to how a diamond is more treasured than a cubic zirconia - the latter presents itself much more readily.

Further, you mistakenly equate male and female thinking, when we firmly know that there ARE fundamental differences. (*IF* you choose to believe evolotionary science, women are designed to be more selective, so as to guard genetic quality. Conversely men are designed to guard genetic quantity, and so are not nearly as selective.) In any case, the thought processes and emotional responses (including the effect of social and cultural forces guiding propriety) of a man and a woman as they are approached are usually extremely different.

 

[vectorz]

Becker,

Here's my advice to you:

http://www.sosuave.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48321

 

[Ricky]

I think at a first meeting, the importance of starting off with low key fluff talk can't be understated.

It isn't so much to hide interest, it is just that if you go full bore into ****y and funny or other seduction strategies, you won't have a great level of rapport left.

It is easy to break rapport with a woman if it is obvious you are just running a lame pickup attempt on her.