The ASD Shield (Strict Discussion)

[SexPDX]

"Strict Discussion" is simply my request that those who participate make an effort to stay on the specific topic: Dealing with the ASD shield (anti-slut defense). There are A LOT of interesting topics (which I would like to discuss in other threads) which are similar or related but let's keep it on topic in this thread.

An ASD shield is the part of her values and the way she has been influenced that causes her to withold sex so that she will not be percieved as a "slut".

Melting the ASD shield when I encouter one happens to be an area in which I am weak. In my recent request for advice on a specific situations many people suggested patterns. I agree that some may work for this, but I have heard few people offer specific examples. I personally have not found a pattern that does this that works for me. The personal style of SS that I have developed so far seems to serve to set me up as an LTR prospect for the target and that's not really working out so well in terms of what my goals really are.

Later on (since I am having trouble with the search on formhandle's site) I will post some examples of ASD melters I have seen. None of the ones I have found yet work for me and I have not come up with any of my own although I admit I have not spent much time with my entire creative drive behind it.

So, let's brainstorm.

Nick

------------------
- The seductionist formerly known as trickynick

You either own the game or it owns you.

~"Pon atencion al latido de tu corazon...y el ritmo de tu respiracion...como te permites llegar a ser completamente llevada...por la conexion que esta tomando lugar." ~

 

[JustDoItAlways]

Nick, I just posted my views on David_Med's thread.

 

[david_med@hotmail.com]

nick,
excellent post. yeah, that is area that can always be improved upon. im interested in seeing the info that will come out of this.

justdoitalways offered some great points on my post.

id like to see if there any other tactics besides those mentioned.

ill do some research and post on this thread.
-d

 

[JIMMMY T]

There are many types of girls...so as DJs we must have many tactics in our arsenal.

For simplicity I will talk of two different types of girls.

This girl wants to have sex(mild ASD shield, she is in discovery mode, all you have to do is make her want to have sex with you. These girls are pretty easy to bed. Just sex them up with the DJ tactics, KINO, ****y+funny...just stand out from the other guys. I often times use canned patterns like the ones from ASF along with what I have found out about the girl to create a pattern dictated by her to get her into the mood I want her in.

Specific patterns: Incredible connection pattern. Fishing pattern, etc.

Then there are the girls with the major ASD shield. I think manytimes these girls associate sex with love. That is if they don't love the guy then its wrong to have sex with him, its not that they won't but societal pressures make them believe its wrong. In this instance it is very important to make her feel as if she loves you. Create those feelings that she associates with love, in you.

In this instance I would use the natural woman pattern. Find out what she feels like when she is in love and develop a pattern that will create those feelings for her in you.

The past few girls I have DJ'd have intiated sex with me. Its been something I have been thinking alot about the past couple of days. I dont know if I am just on my game right now or what...however I have been using these type of principles and it is working great. Its as if I get these women so sexed up and they are thinking in their heads "why hasn't he jumped me yet?"

Instead of directly pressuring the girls for sex I break down the ASD shield and they are free to act they way they want to, which most times is to have sex.

 

[much2learn]

Originally posted by JIMMMY T:
There are many types of girls...so as DJs we must have many tactics in our arsenal.

For simplicity I will talk of two different types of girls.

This girl wants to have sex(mild ASD shield, she is in discovery mode, all you have to do is make her want to have sex with you. These girls are pretty easy to bed. Just sex them up with the DJ tactics, KINO, ****y+funny...just stand out from the other guys. I often times use canned patterns like the ones from ASF along with what I have found out about the girl to create a pattern dictated by her to get her into the mood I want her in.

Specific patterns: Incredible connection pattern. Fishing pattern, etc.

Then there are the girls with the major ASD shield. I think manytimes these girls associate sex with love. That is if they don't love the guy then its wrong to have sex with him, its not that they won't but societal pressures make them believe its wrong. In this instance it is very important to make her feel as if she loves you. Create those feelings that she associates with love, in you.

In this instance I would use the natural woman pattern. Find out what she feels like when she is in love and develop a pattern that will create those feelings for her in you.

The past few girls I have DJ'd have intiated sex with me. Its been something I have been thinking alot about the past couple of days. I dont know if I am just on my game right now or what...however I have been using these type of principles and it is working great. Its as if I get these women so sexed up and they are thinking in their heads "why hasn't he jumped me yet?"

Instead of directly pressuring the girls for sex I break down the ASD shield and they are free to act they way they want to, which most times is to have sex.

What are some good resources for learning about patterning? What are these specific patterns which you refer to?

 

[SexPDX]

Jimmy,

I am not sure you and I percieve this the same way. It seems that you are able to get take care of this early on in most cases whereas for me it is something that comes up when I would normally expect sex to happen.

I agree that that would be the ideal way to do things because then you never have to deal with the ASD directly.

Patterns that revolve around the notion of an incredible connection are not ASD shield specific. They are all about creating the "incredible connection" as it is called.

Once I have time to poke around in the search on mASF I will post the best example I have seen of the kind of pattern I am talking about.

Nick

------------------
- The seductionist formerly known as trickynick

You either own the game or it owns you.

~"Pon atencion al latido de tu corazon...y el ritmo de tu respiracion...como te permites llegar a ser completamente llevada...por la conexion que esta tomando lugar." ~

 

[DeepBlue]

Nick,
Generally when the term ASD is used, then it is used to refer to the things that a woman does in order to rationalize having sex sooner than she normally would, so as to avoid feeling like she was "slutty".

I have never heard it used with the term "shield"...that would just confuse it with the "b1tch shield" which is something else.

Since the term ASD is used mainly to call attention to an observable facet of women's sexual behavior and since it isn't about what YOU are doing, it isn't a particularly practical term like kino or negs.

However, insofar as you understand a woman's desire to not be perceived as a "slut" there are things you can do to make her feel protected from that danger.

The best way to do that is by conveying a wholesome, relaxed, natural confidence in the way you touch her, the way you look at her, and the things you say to her as you begin to get physically intimate.

That allows her to relax and feel good about what is happening, while the fact that you are taking an active role in it all makes her feel as though everything were happening to her. Women often say about a night of great sex that "it just happened." That means she felt comfortable enough with you that she was able to completely relax--relax enough to leave the driving to you. And if she isn't in the drivers seat, then she avoids feeling responsible for the destination, so she can't be blamed or labelled a "slut".

These things are also distinct from "LMR" or "last minute resistance" which is when a woman puts on the brakes right as you're about to have sex, primarily because she is seeking one final bit of reassurance that she is doing the right thing, that you care about her, etc.

DeepBlue


[This message has been edited by DeepBlue (edited 07-25-2002).]

 

[Jake Steed]

I view this a lot more practically than you guys. What I usually do when I know I "have" a girl (I know she's attracted enough to me that she plans to fvck me sometime in the future) I will usually postpone sex myself 1 date.

This tactic works on girls who are sexual, but essentially "good" girls and who I get the vibe from that they view sex as a significant act and possibly have used ASD on previous guys.

For example: It's our third date. We made out/felt up on the second date. We go to her place and I am getting her naked. I know if I push it, I can possibly fvck her, but I'm 90% sure she'll throw up the ASD first. I work on her and get her really horny and physically ready for sex.

What I then do is throw up the ASD for her myself.

I stop and say, "We're not going to do everything right now. I'm only going to do one thing to you tonight." This is of course oral sex. Then I go down on her.

I've done this to three girls who fit my above profile. One of them, who I'm still dating a year later, went along with it and afterwards sucked me off and swallowed. I fvcked her on the next date. The other two girls after receiving oral, begged me to fvck them afterwards and I fvcked them the same night after giving them oral.

I think throwing up the ASD yourself lets them know you're on the same page as them in that you aren't in it for just the sex BUT you're not some non-sexual AFC who won't go for the puzzy (which is what they secretly hope you'll do--go for the puzzy).

Jake

 

[Jake Steed]

bump.

 

[Rev]

Originally posted by Jake Steed:
What I then do is throw up the ASD for her myself.

I stop and say, "We're not going to do everything right now. I'm only going to do one thing to you tonight." This is of course oral sex. Then I go down on her.

Any other ASDs you can throw up for her, say if she feels getting eaten out is still too slutty?

 

[Jake Steed]

Originally posted by Rev:
Any other ASDs you can throw up for her, say if she feels getting eaten out is still too slutty?

Last week I was on a first date. I was parked in her driveway to drop her off at home. We we were making out hardcore. I was feeling her up, her tongue was down my throat, finally she straddled my leg and started dry humping me. I told her what I was going to do to her (fvck her), and she told me she wanted to do it next time for sure. Then we went at it again and I realized my options were either to keep making out until she became bored of it and cut it off, or throw up the ASD myself and make her get out of my car, with a promise to her that her desires were to be fulfilled when we met next.

So that's what I did. She came at me harder with more tongue action, and I realized that women who have no intention of fvcking you (at the present, at least) will still try to push you to the point where you are begging/supplicating to get them to fvck you. I refused this game and cut it off myself. I have yet to take her out again, but I'll post if anything comes of it.

So to answer your question, I think you should push it as far as you comfortably can, but throw up the ASD right before she does, which can be anywhere from feeling her up, to oral sex, to fvcking.

The important thing to do is try to figure out if she's the type of girl who'd be turned ON by you pushing it to sex that night, or turned OFF by it, and go from there.

Jake

 

[david_med@hotmail.com]

Jake,
great idea about throwing up the ASD yourself. Basically get her all hot and bothered and then just stop. Essentially tease the hell out of the biyatch. Great nonetheless. Anyhow, I hope the girls you ate out didn't smell like fish...hahah. j/k.
one

 

[XANEUS]

These are all really good ideas for pre-empting the ASD. But what do you do once you've gotten it? Where do you go from there?

 

[JustDoItAlways]

I've thought some more about ASD and what has been successful for me in the past. I think that you need to have a "toolbox" of methods and strategies to deal with ASD.

With any particular girl you may need to use all of them to get to your goal.

1. "Understand the Motivation." First you need to understand where ASD comes from, what is the motivation.

From the time women are little girls, they are taught not to give it up too easy, save their virginity, teased by other girls when they do give it up and labeled as "sluts" if they do sleep around. For a girl, it can nearly be the most negative label they can get.

Women will thus (very) often give you resistance (sometimes a lot) so that when they do have sex with you, they can pretend to themselves (chick-logic) and prove to you that they are not easy, that they are not a slut. In addition, they are just protecting themselves in case you go out blabbing about the encounter later.

- they need to prove to themselves they are not a slut;
- they need to prove to you they are not a slut; and,
- they don't want anyone else labelling them as a slut if word gets out about the encounter.

How else do you get around ASD.

2. "Set the Mood." Get her horny, make her feel comfortable, get some wine (or champagne) into her. Romance her a little, run some patterns on her, have the lights down low etc. etc.

Setting the mood is all about allowing her to prove to herself that she is not a slut (chick-logic.) She should say to herself that "He did everything right so it was okay that I slept with him."

I can't go through all the different things you need to do to "set the mood" but if you just understand that it's just to make her feel comfortable about the encounter later (she wasn't a slut). All you guys are DJs so you should understand this.

3. "Your Passion" After most of my ONSs and my frequent first-date sex nights, the explanation I have heard from the girl most often was “You just wanted me so much.”

In effect, she thinks to herself, he wanted me so much it wasn't really my fault.

If your passion is strong enough, it is a big enough compliment to a girl that it overwhelms the ASD.

4. "Keep Trying". You will know when you are getting ASD when she says something like "we really shouldn't" or "we really can't" or "I really should go". Don't freak out, this is good sign.

Just let her play her little game(s) for a while. It is, afterall, very important to her (and to you in getting into her pants.)

Just proceed until you encounter the resistance, then back-off for a while. Do something else non-sexual, like go back to the movie for a few minutes, go take a long bathroom break, tell jokes in bed etc.

Then put the moves on her again until you get resistance again. Rinse, repeat.

After two or three times of this, almost all women will then feel vindicated that they have proved they are not a slut and then you can hit it.

5. "Reverse Logic". Another really effective method is to just use reverse chick-logic psychology on her and say her "yeah you're right we really shouldn't", say it two or three different times using different words. If she's also giving physical resistance such as pushing you away or getting up to leave, I throw in a "Yeah, you really should go."

They always stay and come back for more with this move.

6. "I Am Discrete". One of the motivations is her fear that other people will hear about it.

Never blab about it to anyone because you will get the big-gun ASD after, ie. last time.

In your pre-work dating, you should also never brag about any specific sexual conquests and especially any specific woman you have bagged. It is actually good if she asks you and you say "well I don't ever kiss and tell." This will get around her other fear that you will telling other people about it, even new girlfriends years down the road. Letting her know you are discrete is also a big part of breaking down her ASD.

7. "Taste the Honey". There are a number of SS patterns designed to get her to drop her a ASD shield. I am not going to type them all out.

The point of this is to let her know that you only live once, we're both mature adults, its natural to be apprehensive, we have an incredible connection, "taste the honey" when its right in front of you.

8. "Get Her Juices Flowing" Have you ever noticed that when you get a hard-on, you are ready to go right away.

Chicks are the same, they want to fvck when they get wet, when their puss gets engorged with blood, when it's stimulated.

Do some dry humping on her. Feel her up. Get those juices flowing.

Sounds a little crass but it is SO effective.

9. "Set It Up For Next Time". There may be a time when its clear she is telling you "No." If it sounds like "No, not this time but maybe next time." Keep your cool and let her say No. Women will actually feel better about having sex with you in the future if she's knows she can say No once in awhile and you won't get upset about it. You're much more likely to get sex any time you want after this.

If it sounds like "No, I don't think we'll ever get together." Tell her "Wow, you are the biggest tease I've ever seen" and just get up and leave and leave her alone after. She'll probably come back apologizing after and you can set up a "Returning Fox".

The anti-slut defense may continue to be needed by some women for a long-time into a relationship so you may need to vary your techniques some but just realize this is important to her.

Keep adding to your toolbox.



[This message has been edited by JustDoItAlways (edited 11-15-2002).]

 

[thecraftylefty]

That was by far the best description of how to get past the ASD, JustDoItAlways. Your explanation clarified a few things I was having trouble with. My toolbox thanks you for the advice.

"If your rap is strong it can't go wrong."

thecraftylefty

 

[TesuqueRed]

Yeah, that portion should probably go into tips as a separate thread.

I find that you let them say it, give them a little space and then resume. Usually there is no resistance after that--they just had to get it ("I'm no slvt") on the record before proceeding.

The worst thing you can do is show disappointment or get pyssy. I've even not reacted and just continued what I was doing and worked out Ok.

 

[cynetix]

Great thread

Originally posted by Jake Steed
I view this a lot more practically than you guys. What I usually do when I know I "have" a girl (I know she's attracted enough to me that she plans to fvck me sometime in the future) I will usually postpone sex myself 1 date.

This tactic works on girls who are sexual, but essentially "good" girls and who I get the vibe from that they view sex as a significant act and possibly have used ASD on previous guys.

For example: It's our third date. We made out/felt up on the second date. We go to her place and I am getting her naked. I know if I push it, I can possibly fvck her, but I'm 90% sure she'll throw up the ASD first. I work on her and get her really horny and physically ready for sex.

What I then do is throw up the ASD for her myself.

I stop and say, "We're not going to do everything right now. I'm only going to do one thing to you tonight." This is of course oral sex. Then I go down on her.

I've done this to three girls who fit my above profile. One of them, who I'm still dating a year later, went along with it and afterwards sucked me off and swallowed. I fvcked her on the next date. The other two girls after receiving oral, begged me to fvck them afterwards and I fvcked them the same night after giving them oral.

I think throwing up the ASD yourself lets them know you're on the same page as them in that you aren't in it for just the sex BUT you're not some non-sexual AFC who won't go for the puzzy (which is what they secretly hope you'll do--go for the puzzy).

Jake

I've thought about doing what you've described above, Jake, but recoiled due to the possibility in my mind that it will backfire. Do you think that the girl might take advantage of the situation and NOT go further with you, while enjoying the ride (since, well, you're doing a fine job servicing her)? Because of this worry of shooting myself in the foot I've never given oral if I didn't know we were going to also have sex.

Perhaps I can try to answer my own question...

Is it a good idea to leave her hanging, and not bring her to O? Then you'd be the big tease. Sounds like a good set-up for the next date if you leave her high and dry...but if she begs you to finish, then you encounter the same dilemma, don't you?

What I don't want to happen is have the girl enjoy the whole thing, but still have objections the next time around--or perhaps the request that I do it again! Basically I feel that if I'm going to go down on her, she better be giving it up (I feel silly for bringing "pride" into this, but I'd never want to be in the position where I've given her pleasure and she won't return it); so how can you be assured of never running into that problem?

Maybe I need to give myself more faith in my own oral skills: if I can take a girl exactly where I want her to be, then my worries are irrelevant, aren't they?

Anyone else?

cynetix

PS: It's true that this post is borderline off-subject, but its relevance lies in the possible downsides of Jake's fight-ASD-with-ASD tactic...so no flames please .

 

[EpsilonArmati]

Ever seen Cruel Intentions? I don't think what Sebastian did in the latter half of the movie was justifiable, but the beginning parts were golden.

 

[cynetix]

Hmm..

I think I realized shortly after writing my post above that my worries are pretty senseless. edit: Perhaps for the most part, the girls that will throw ASD out onto the table are NOT the girls who will use you for oral sex

I don't know whence the worries came but, next time around, will try dismissing them and proceeding along the lines of Jake's gameplan.

Insight from others would still be greatly appreciated though!

cynetix

 

[The Time Machine]

Pressing the blue button..
*bump!*
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