Squats

[Quiksilver]

This question has been on my mind for awhile now. Since I switched gyms actually.

At the old gym, there was a squat machine, akin to a smith machine or whatever you call it. I worked my weights up to 460lbs on that machine.

Now I'm at a different gym with a squat rack and olympic bars. I started afew weeks ago and am steadily increasing the weight. Right now I'm at 225lbs, haven't plateaued or slowed down, still linear gains.

Now I'm wondering, which was more effective for increasing strength? I went past parallel on the squat machine, and I go past parallel with the barbell. I can't go AtG on either b/c my left knee locks up from a skiing accident i had afew years back. I've been told that the barbell squats are far better than the smith machine, but the bottom line is that before I was lifting almost 250lbs more than I am now. It seems abit boggling(to me atleast) that lifting 250lbs less, is actually more effective.

I know there's a whole bunch more muscle fibres that I'm probably using with the barbell simply from balancing it, but at the same time people preach using a barbell Bench press over Dumbbell bench press. Wouldn't it be more effective to lower the weight of your bench(temporarily atleast) and use dumbbells, than use a barbell?

 

[Warboss Alex]

Freeweights will always build strength better than machines although if you can't go a2g I'd look into other options quite frankly or risk further knee injury from parallel squatting. Can't you break parallel at all?

 

[Quiksilver]

Oh I can go way past parallel, but if I go as far down as I can then I can't get the load up without some pain in my knee.

I think you or throttle told me awhile ago that squatting lower weights on a barbell was much more effective for building strength than more weight on a smith machine, but a 250lbs differential makes that hard to believe.

And I just related that to the Bench press, because if that same logic applies, then everybody should be doing DB benches instead of barbell for the same reasons.

 

[Warboss Alex]

250lbs different is perfectly feasible between machines/freeweights.

If you can go below parallel on free squats, do that as low down as it is comfortable. Also stretch your legs (quads/hamstrings) between sets to relieve the knee pain (I have the same problem).

Why is a db bench different than a barbell press?

 

[Throttle]

250 actually sounds about right to me, actually. when I made the transition from machine to free I went from about 375 to 150. getting your balance is half the battle. think about it: you've never really worked those muscles at all while working your way up the machine squatting.

 

[Quiksilver]

Why is a db bench different than a barbell press?

Db bench is much harder than barbell bench. More muscle fibres are required to lift dumbbells than barbells, for the same reason that its harder to squat a barbell than it is to squat on a smith machine; balance.

Have you ever tried to bench the weight you do on a barbell, with dumbbells?

Also, the range of motion is much larger. As you know already, the barbell cant go lower than your chest, but dbs can.

Applying the same logic from squatting, it would make more sense to use dumbbells than barbells for bench.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Db bench is much harder than barbell bench. More muscle fibres are required to lift dumbbells than barbells

LOL.. which extra fibres? Dumbbells are harder because you have to control them in different directions but with barbells you can use more weight (which is more of a stimulus for growth) .. so which is better? if anyone thinks dumbbells will develop your chest better than barbells (or vice versa) then you're mistaken. They're both equally good. Doesn't matter which you choose, when you're inclining 500 or db pressing 200's your chest will be huge and won't be 'under developed'.

Incidentally I did say incline press and not flat press.. inclines are superior for growth, but whether you do incline dbs, barbells or both your chest will still grow.

You can't compare freeweights (barbell squats) and machines (machine squats) in the same way as you compare barbells vs. dbs for a chest press - apples and oranges.

 

[Quiksilver]

Dumbbells are harder because you have to control them in different directions but with barbells you can use more weight (which is more of a stimulus for growth) .. so which is better? if anyone thinks dumbbells will develop your chest better than barbells (or vice versa) then you're mistaken.

So you're saying that using barbells is just as good as using dumbbells for bench?

You can't compare freeweights (barbell squats) and machines (machine squats) in the same way as you compare barbells vs. dbs for a chest press - apples and oranges.

The same logic applies though. A barbell squat at 250lbs is far harder to get up than a machine squat at 450lbs, because "you have to control it in different directions". If you're saying that more weight = more stimulus for growth then wouldn't the machine squat be just as effective, if not more?

Forgive me if I'm missing something here, but what you're saying doesn't make sense, to me atleast.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Yes barbells are just as good as dumbbells for growth, some people grow better with dumbbells and some better with barbells, but I wouldn't call one superior to the other - whichever one you can progress on better. Ideally you'd do both of course.

Machines put you in an ideal mechanical position plus carry or balance some of the weight for you, so lifting more weight is easier (why are smith squats so much easier on the lower back and core in general, for example? cause the machine is partly supporting the barbell). You can't compare a machine squat to actually standing there with the barbell across your back.

Put simply: the machine doesn't make it feel like you're lifting 460. Otherwise you'd be able to free squat it - thus you're not getting the stimulus of a 460lb squat, you're getting half of that (or whatever). If it was the same stimulus you'd be able to freesquat that much.

 

[Kerpal]

If you really want a challenge try 1 arm dumbbell press. You will really feel it in your core. Just be careful!