Spinning plates when you're a natural AFC

[Findog]

Spinning plates is not something that comes easy to me. I am basically somebody that is trying to overcome my AFC habits and behaviors. I'm a natural AFC. Actually for the longest time I was an omega male. Never got laid, never went on dates. Finally in my mid twenties I looked in the mirror and realized what I was and vowed to do better. I started working out, eating better, developed hobbies and interests beyond video games.

Before:

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/225/444139217_32a7f4d03a_o.jpg

After:

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/250/520844924_7bdf75d2fe_b.jpg

I finally got a girlfriend. I've now had two serious relationships. But in many ways I'm still struggling with AFC-ness. I understand after reading the forum why it's good to spin plates: it prevents oneitis, and when you have options, you come across and confident and indifferent and that is a good thing when it comes to creating attraction.

I've been out with a 36 year old HB7 on four dates now. Last date, she came over to my place last Saturday. Plan was to go to a museum and then grab some lunch. We ended up back at my place, and she actually was the one who ended up initiating sex. She practically jumped me after we barely sat down on my couch. We had sex for hours, and then basically passed out around midnight. She spend the night and left 22 hours after our date began.

I lined up dates with two other girls before this last date with then HB7. When she was lying in my bed last Sunday morning, she said she wanted to see me again and knowing I had these two dates lined up, I said "I'm free on Thursday, but I have stuff to do Tuesday and Wednesday." She says point-blank "Can I ask what you're doing? Are you going on other dates?" I kinda brushed off the question and said I had "made plans with friends," but I did say that I prefer not to sleep around and that I prefer to only be sexually active with one person. I told you the AFC is strong in me!! She put me on the spot and I didn't know what the sosuave answer to this question should/would be.

Had a date tonight with a 27 year old HB8. Things went really well and we made plans to meet up again on Friday. Thursday I'm going to be with the HB7. I prefer the HB8 of course, but it seems unwise to throw away a sure thing (for now anyways, I understand women can turn on a dime) for something that merely has gotten off to a good start. I also have another date tomorrow night with another girl.

I guess what I'm asking is - what do you say when you don't answer calls or texts because you're with the other, and they later ask you about it, or why it took you so long to get back to them?

The HB7 is really digging me right now and I think wants to be exclusive, but I think it's way too early for that. Besides always wearing a condom, shouldn't if pressed for a commitment just say "We're still relative strangers in a way and should just focus on getting to know each other and enjoy each other's company," blah blah blah? I think also with spinning plates, how do I not know that say six weeks from now the HB7 for whatever reason pulls an abrupt turn and decides to kick me to the curb?

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not a natural at this stuff. It's kind of uncomfortable doing something that you've never done successfully before. I guess what I'm wondering is, what are the ethics of spinning plates? What do you say when it takes you forever to get back to them because you're not going to be so stupid as to answer texts or phone calls in front of the other?

What are the ethics of being sexually active with more than one person? Just wear a condom, and if asked to define things say "We're dating, but it's too early to be exclusive?"

 

[Greasy Pig]

First of all, fvcking big congrats on the transformation.
That's really inspirational.

Now, don't ever be afraid to piss a woman off. I don't mean be rude, but be brutally honest. I'm not saying tell HB7: "Yeah, I'm banging two other girls and going on a date with a hot Latina this Wednesday."
I just mean don't tell her what you think she wants to hear.
Just tell her what you did tell her: "I have plans".
There's no need to elaborate. In fact, having an air of mystery is what drives women nuts with desire.
If she pushes you for an answer, just laugh it off and say something like: "Don't worry, I'll be sure to check in with you every hour, Agent Scully."
Rollo says a woman would rather share an Alpha than settle for a beta.

As for the morals of sleeping with multiple women, I say rubber up always. I think it's far better to condomise than to explain to a chick how she got the clap from you as happened to a female friend of mine.
She was seeing this guy and he gave her the clap, she forgave him, then he gave her herpes. What an arsehole but of course, she's still with him.

 

[SecondHalf]

Good post and good story.

Two things, I liked GP's answer to your question. Evasive yet not cold.
I also liked the question of "ethics of spinning plates". That was just plain funny.

Back when I was spinning plates last summer, the way I handled the messaging contact is by letting them know up front, right away how rude I think all this texting is when you're out with other people.
"If I'm playing pool with a buddy, would I call you and chat leaving him wait - NO". This becomes your expected behavior for all of your plates when it comes to your very legitimate, respectable "messaging ethics"

A woman will eventually not accept any of the "not telling" responses you can give. At that point ... you likely have to lie. I had problems with this one. But lie I did. The problem is, it makes you less trusting at the same time.

So what is your goal?
Exclusivity?
Plate spinning?

If plate spinning, I guess it doesn't matter who you trust. But you are carving a little of what makes you a good man away.

It was a tough one for me while I was doing it.

SH

 

[Lexington]

First off, good job on the transformation. I too went through some of the same things you're going through. You have to realize that in all likelihood, many girls are also "spinning plates".....don't be fooled. If presented with the opportunity, girls will swing branches in a heartbeat in the early stages of a relationship. Contrary to what our fem-centric society may tell you, there is absolutely nothing immoral about spinning plates. Unless you've explicitly made a commitment, you are perfectly justified in fvcking who you want when you want.

I like Greasy Pig's responses. Evade her probing with humor/sarcasm. You're not her boyfriend or her husband. You have no responsibility to tell her what you're doing when you're not together. You might even want to play on her fears a little "yeah, I have a couple of orgies lined up on those days."

If she demands that you define the relationship, tell her that it's too early to be considered boyfriend/girlfriend and that you want to see where things go. Say that it's never a good idea to force things and that they should "happen naturally." End it with some reassurance by letting her know that you're into her though.

 

[Jonnybangbang]

I posted something similar a while ago about spinning plates, and being a plate on a woman's menu. I agree with the above mentioned comments. "Don't ask, don't tell" was the advice given to me and it seems to work. Mystery is key. Being or giving off the impression that you're busy is a good thing (as stated religiously on this site). Especially with HB7's or higher. Be a monkey and swing branches until that one branch is solid enough to hold YOU as a whole and is littered with more bananas than any other.

Cheers

 

[Nutz]

I've been out with a 36 year old HB7 on four dates now.

You're 34, she's 36.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU????!!!!!!

Granted it took me about 5 years in the game to develop the skills to date women 10+ years younger than myself.

Had a date tonight with a 27 year old HB8.

That's more like it



For banging multiple women, do not be explicit and say you're having sex with other women, just that you're seeing other women looking for the right one for you. That's all the more information you need to provide.

 

[Findog]

So what is your goal?
Exclusivity?
Plate spinning?

If plate spinning, I guess it doesn't matter who you trust. But you are carving a little of what makes you a good man away.

It was a tough one for me while I was doing it.

SH

My goal would be to have a girlfriend again at some point, at least a woman that is quality relationship material. And I like what you said about being a good man. I don't want to use people. I've been on the receiving end of that and it's not fun. I think game is just as much, if not more so, about changing things inside and become the best possible version of yourself that you can be. Increased success with women is therefore a byproduct of those changes and not the end goal. It's said all the time on here that a woman should not be the focal point of your happiness. Made that mistake before, won't ever do it again.

 

[Findog]

I posted something similar a while ago about spinning plates, and being a plate on a woman's menu. I agree with the above mentioned comments. "Don't ask, don't tell" was the advice given to me and it seems to work. Mystery is key. Being or giving off the impression that you're busy is a good thing (as stated religiously on this site). Especially with HB7's or higher. Be a monkey and swing branches until that one branch is solid enough to hold YOU as a whole and is littered with more bananas than any other.

Cheers

Basically the HB7's mistake on her end was to ask. I do think four dates and sex is way too soon to think about becoming exclusive or becoming "official."
And I have been busy - I recently got a promotion and a 48 percent increase on my salary at work, but that means I'm working longer hours taking on additional responsibilities and learning new things. I work in IT and I'm transitioning from desktop support to network admin.

 

[st_99]

so in the 'before' pic where you auditioning for a spot in "The Office"??

 

[Naughty Ninja]

Basically the HB7's mistake on her end was to ask. I do think four dates and sex is way too soon to think about becoming exclusive or becoming "official."
And I have been busy - I recently got a promotion and a 48 percent increase on my salary at work, but that means I'm working longer hours taking on additional responsibilities and learning new things. I work in IT and I'm transitioning from desktop support to network admin.

Women often use sex to get a relationship. Men use a relationship to get steady sex.

"Plate spinning" is good to a certain degree in helping you go out to meet new women and finding out what you want as well as them."

For me I don't need to 'spin plates' because I'm confident and secure with myself in a relationship or not.

What happens if you don't get any plates? What happens if they all disappear? Do dudes on this board feel they 'always' have to have someone around to 'complete' themselves as if they can't be confident, happy and secure with themselves on their own?

Do you need to have the 'hb8' because she's 'prettier' than the 'hb7' to feel good about yourself and have a good image in front of people with an '8' on your arm?

Now as for the 7 asking you questions..she may like you a lot. but the control thing after 4 dates of 'what are you doing' especially after she initiated sex after a few dates seems like a chick who thinks she 'wants' someone she can tell what to do..but once you become 'hers' she'll (as every women does) try to mold you into what she THINKS she wants....then after she accomplishes that task....she'll get bored with you and justify some excuse to move on to greener pastures. Of course if she read this she'd deny it, but women will always do the opposite anyway. They can't help it.

She has to realize that IF you aren't exclusive at this point. YOU have a life. and YOU need to accept SHE has one also. So don't get butt hurt if she decides to date other dudes. You need to tell her that and talk as adults. If neither of you can't do that because you are too insecure to deal with that fact. Then spinning all the other plates in the world isn't going to change anything.

You need to be truly confident and secure in YOUR life decisions and with yourself and not need someone to 'complete' you. Just someone to be a part of your life and you of theirs. Till you BOTH possibly grow and become one.

It may be the 7...it may not. That's why it's called 'dating'. True story.

 

[scrouds]

Good job!

To answer your question

I guess what I'm asking is - what do you say when you don't answer calls or texts because you're with the other, and they later ask you about it, or why it took you so long to get back to them?

You don't have to explain yourself. You're a man, you were busy. That's my default answer to unanswered texts, emails, not picking up phone calls, etc. "I was busy". If they don't accept that answer at face value, I raise up the snark. "What were you doing" would be the most oft asked question. The answer could be anything from waxing my carrot, banging your mom, walking my cat, watering my dogs. I can call her the gestapo, fbi, sherlock holmes.

Sometimes I turn the tables, flirting with the afc of old. "I was out buying you chocolates, but I ate them"

The underlying theme here is that you do what you want to do, when you want to do it. They should not question you, and if they try, they will get a biting answer back. In fact the one thing I don't do is tell them what I was doing. If they have the gall to question me, they don't deserve the answer.

You are a free man, autonomous and in your own right. You don't answer to someone else. So don't.

 

[Colossus]

Findog-

Congrats on your positive results. Consistent positive action in any endeavor will yield rewards.

As for the "ethics" of spinning plates, this is really more of a philosophical question. In my opinion, the two aren't really compatible beyond a certain point.

Reason being is that eventually, usually as soon as you start sleeping with one of the girls you are seeing, you are going to have to lie. You could tell them directly, but any woman with self-esteem isnt going to hang around a guy who is admittedly banging another woman....unless he is unusually high-status and she has some legitimate social gain to make from being with him. For most of us however, that isnt the case. So, you're left with two options once things become sexual: Dont ask-dont tell; or lie.


Part of what makes a good man is indeed pervasive honesty and congruency in his personal conduct, AKA integrity. When you start bold-face lying to chicks it's a slippery slope. Many guys see nothing "immoral" about this; they just think it's part of the game. After all, women lie to us all the time in the dating arena. So level the playing field, right?

Well this is really an individual call, and if you are feeling uncomfortable about it, like I did, that is your subconscious telling you that there is an incongruency between your internal beliefs and what you are thinking about doing. It doesnt sound like sleeping with two chicks concomitantly is going to sit well with you. And that's ok---nothing wrong with that---just dont compromise your core values for the sake of "spinning plates". You understand the concept, and you are already putting into practice. You will just have to decide where you want to draw the line.

 

[Findog]

Findog-

Congrats on your positive results. Consistent positive action in any endeavor will yield rewards.

As for the "ethics" of spinning plates, this is really more of a philosophical question. In my opinion, the two aren't really compatible beyond a certain point.

Reason being is that eventually, usually as soon as you start sleeping with one of the girls you are seeing, you are going to have to lie. You could tell them directly, but any woman with self-esteem isnt going to hang around a guy who is admittedly banging another woman....unless he is unusually high-status and she has some legitimate social gain to make from being with him. For most of us however, that isnt the case. So, you're left with two options once things become sexual: Dont ask-dont tell; or lie.


Part of what makes a good man is indeed pervasive honesty and congruency in his personal conduct, AKA integrity. When you start bold-face lying to chicks it's a slippery slope. Many guys see nothing "immoral" about this; they just think it's part of the game. After all, women lie to us all the time in the dating arena. So level the playing field, right?

Well this is really an individual call, and if you are feeling uncomfortable about it, like I did, that is your subconscious telling you that there is an incongruency between your internal beliefs and what you are thinking about doing. It doesnt sound like sleeping with two chicks concomitantly is going to sit well with you. And that's ok---nothing wrong with that---just dont compromise your core values for the sake of "spinning plates". You understand the concept, and you are already putting into practice. You will just have to decide where you want to draw the line.

I'll guess I'll put it this way: I'm not ready to be exclusive with somebody after only four dates. I feel like it takes several weeks of dating somebody to get a good feel for their personality and decide if you're compatible and want to be an item. So I think it's unrealistic on her part to expect a relationship after only knowing each other two weeks. I arranged dates with other girls before we had sex. I think the next time I see her I will explain to her like the other guys said that we're still getting to know each other. As for branch swinging, if I dig her enough, I suppose I won't swing to another branch.

 

[Lexington]

I'll guess I'll put it this way: I'm not ready to be exclusive with somebody after only four dates. I feel like it takes several weeks of dating somebody to get a good feel for their personality and decide if you're compatible and want to be an item. So I think it's unrealistic on her part to expect a relationship after only knowing each other two weeks. I arranged dates with other girls before we had sex. I think the next time I see her I will explain to her like the other guys said that we're still getting to know each other. As for branch swinging, if I dig her enough, I suppose I won't swing to another branch.

I disagree somewhat with Colossus. He states that you have to lie or not tell a girl. He seems to imply that both are not consistent with a man of integrity or honesty.

Obviously, lying is never honest. So if it conflicts with your morals, then by all means don't do it. But withholding information is not dishonesty. As you stated, this girl has known you for 2 weeks. The fact that she fvcked you doesn't entitle her to know all the details of your personal life.

There are many details about our lives that we don't share with other people. We are under no obligation to disclose all these details if we don't want to.....certainly not to people we have just met.

You are perfectly justified in not being ready to commit to a relationship at this stage. You have other prospects that are worth checking out. This girl can wonder about what you are busy with, but there is nothing immoral or dishonest about not disclosing this information.

 

[backbreaker]

Findog-

Congrats on your positive results. Consistent positive action in any endeavor will yield rewards.

As for the "ethics" of spinning plates, this is really more of a philosophical question. In my opinion, the two aren't really compatible beyond a certain point.

Reason being is that eventually, usually as soon as you start sleeping with one of the girls you are seeing, you are going to have to lie. You could tell them directly, but any woman with self-esteem isnt going to hang around a guy who is admittedly banging another woman....unless he is unusually high-status and she has some legitimate social gain to make from being with him. For most of us however, that isnt the case. So, you're left with two options once things become sexual: Dont ask-dont tell; or lie.


Part of what makes a good man is indeed pervasive honesty and congruency in his personal conduct, AKA integrity. When you start bold-face lying to chicks it's a slippery slope. Many guys see nothing "immoral" about this; they just think it's part of the game. After all, women lie to us all the time in the dating arena. So level the playing field, right?

Well this is really an individual call, and if you are feeling uncomfortable about it, like I did, that is your subconscious telling you that there is an incongruency between your internal beliefs and what you are thinking about doing. It doesnt sound like sleeping with two chicks concomitantly is going to sit well with you. And that's ok---nothing wrong with that---just dont compromise your core values for the sake of "spinning plates". You understand the concept, and you are already putting into practice. You will just have to decide where you want to draw the line.

i can't agree with this at all, for a few reasons.

first's let's address the ethic issue on the table. why do you assume you have to lie to the girl?


most men, do not understand that from a fundamental standpoint with plates you have to believe you are not doing anything wrong. if you can't get past this you have no chance.

the way I see it, most women spin plates they just don't call it plate spinning. what is a woman doing when she is single had has a guy take her to the movies on saturday and goes out for drinks with him and then on tuesday has another guy take her to the movies and on Thursday has another guy take her to play put put golf? that's plate spinning.


when i first started spinning plates when i was 21 i would lie my ass off. deny deny deny. it wasn't me. you have pictures and a signed notarized letter stating you saw me kissing another girl? wasn't me. and this worked to some extent. more than anything it provided me with a bunch of laughs. also it's good game practice as you get good at talking to women when you are trying to explain your way out of a girl answering the door when she decided to drop in on an unexpected visit.

as i got older, i realized i don't owe any woman anything. why am i pretending to be faithful to this girl when she has offered nothing or hasn't proven anything? then i changed my philosophy don't ask dont' tell but if you ask tell.

it's all in how much tact you have and how you word it and how you explain your actions. IF you feel like you are doing something naughty and wrfong that's what she is going to pick up on. a girl ask me am I seeing anyone else, and I tell them i am not seeing anyone i'm single. and i am. if she asks me am I going on dates with other girls I would say yes I am and if she has a problem with that i tell her give me a reason to top dating other girls i and will be happy to but i'm not going to stop going otu and living life just because i went on 2 good dates.

Mind you, i did nto say they would be happya bout it or like it, no more than you like knowing that the girl you went on a date with is seeing 2 other guys. but if a woman really likes you she will stick around at least for a little bit.

dont' rub it in her face, be classy about it but don't lie.

give her something tangible to work towards. if a girl thinks you are just this life long pimp she will run. just tell her and be 100% honestly look babe I"ve been in some relationships with some girls that were pretty bad and i am just careful now. i like you but you are going to have to show me why i should date you i'm not just going to stop going out beucase you and i had a good date. that's not how it works. give her a goal; prove to him i am a good woman. show that i am better then the other girl he is going out with and he will chose me. that's the key of it all.


the 2 longest relationships i have had an adult, amber when i was 21 waited 6 months for me to settle down with her and we dated for a year, and my now wife waited alitle bit under 3 for me to settle down. netiher of them were happy about it, amber would call me and curse me out just ab out every day lol, but she really liked me so she stuck it out.

and to show you how hypocricial women are, amber when i met her would call me every day and call me every name in the book but yet had no qualms about going out witgh her ex boyfriend to eat and to have drinks and stuff. yet i am the one that has to 100% commit to not seeing ohter people. she did not consider that spinning plates because " i dont' like him like that" well hell what makes you think i like the other girls "like that" if i liked one of them "like that' i would be dating them but i'm not.

millie did not like the fact that i was seeing other women at all but had no problem at all with her AFC LJBF buddy taking her out when i was not around. "oh you know i odn't like him like that i like you" well what makes you think i like the other girls "like that". youc an't have your cake and eat it too.

men, dating is war. all out war. stop giving women grenades to throw at you.


you have to understand man you don't owe anyone anything. you don't owe these women you being faithful to them for no reason.


the second thing i is that she is going to leave if you tell her the truth. i have dated enough women to know this is 100% false. I'm not saying all will stay but if a woman really likes a man she will try to win him just like you will try to win a really really hot girl even you have competition. instinctively a woman knows that she is going to have to put up a fight for a really good catch.

i keep reiterating this because a woman will use this time and time again. she will not like this. but what a woman likes is not necessarily what works. women want the path of least resistance, women aren't going to give you a how to make me wet playbook.


the problem that you guys are having form a moral standpoint is that you are moving too fast in your mind. going out for drinks and having causal sex is not dating. it's going out and having drinks and casual sex.

 

[Findog]

backbreaker,

How do you feel about sleeping with more than one girl at a time, provided you are using a condom and there is no agreement to be an exclusive, committed couple yet?

Here's what a buddy told me:

"Basically you are pretty much in the clear to do whatever. Essentially they way it works in our crazy modern world is, unless there is an explicit agreement not to see other people then you are free to "date" whomever you like and as many at the same time as you can keep strait. Now that being said, there is a kind of unspoken rule that you focus you attention on whoever you are with at teh time so no texting one girl while on a date with another. Its tacky. Also no inviting them both to the same party or event and taking some care to avoid that kind of situation. Unless said girls swing both ways in which case, well lucky you.

In short as an adult you are allowed to have sex with as many people as you want (and it's safe to assume whoever you are having sex with is also having sex with other people) unless both parties agree not to."

 

[backbreaker]

backbreaker,

How do you feel about sleeping with more than one girl at a time, provided you are using a condom and there is no agreement to be an exclusive, committed couple yet?

Here's what a buddy told me:

the same way that a girl feels about sleeping with the hot guy she met at a party event hough she is talking to someone else. could care less.


people are going to look out for themselves at all times. they are going to do what's in their best interest. you do not owe anyone anything. drillt hat in your head.

when I decide to commit i am 100% commited. unlike most men, who date once at a time, when a girl starts flirting with them i don't think about what i could be having beucase i already had it at some point. but to get to that point where i am 100% commitrted you are going to have to work


note, it works both ways. if a girl is going on dates, you can't bust her balls about it. **** ask her if she had fun. defuse the entire situtation. will do nothing but make her more mad beucase she can't get to you.


most women who won't even try to win you are girls i would not date anyway, they are too insecure. these are the girls that know you are cheating every time you walk out the house or are on the phone when she is in the other room.


what usually happens, well not usually but i would have this happen a lot, a girl would find out i was going out with someone else and they would make this stand about how i am not serious or she doesn't date players or what not and i will tel them well i'm not a player or antyhing but if that is how you feel best of luck and a week or 2 later i would get a call or a text "can i see u" or "you feel like having company" or something like that. amber did this at least 7 times lol. woudl bust my balls then call me a few nights later "i want to see you can i come over"

what women want you to do is not what will make a woman want you. drill that **** in your head. women want a man that other women want. i'm telling you a woman would rather, well not rather but she will go on a date with a guy who she knwos is seeing someone else that she really is into than to give the guy who has no plates but is AFC as hell a chance. men are the same way, i would rather go out with a true HB8 who i know has anotehr guy in the picture than go see a HB6 who is begging me to date her
]

last but not least, the added benefit of spinning plates is that you get that much more practice in with the opposte sex. take one guy who women woudl consider a 7. let's say you are a 7. this guy has "dated" 3 girls in the last year and a half. you have dated 3 girls in the last 3 2 months. you have probably dated 10 girls in the last year and a half. what ever negative there is by having other women in the picture the honing of your game will more than make up for it. you will be that much more sharper than the other guy. i was to the point that i really did not care if another guy was in the picture or not i knew if i really wanted to put the screws on a woman i could. i knew that no guy that she was talking to had anywhere near the level of myg ame beucase i had that uch experience.

 

[Nutz]

By the way OP, the after pic is SOOOOOO much better it's not even funny.

 

[Colossus]

Let me clarify I dont consider the "dont ask, dont tell" policy lying. I dont think seeing multiple women---whether you are sexual with them or not---is wrong UNTIL you have made a mutual agreement of exclusivity. Until that time, like BB said, you owe her nothing. And she owes you nothing. Fully realize and expect she could be seeing other men in between your dates.

Plate spinning (IMO) becomes unethical when you are misleading them that there is exclusivity when there isnt.

If you are asked directly about other women, then just say yes, tactfully. She can stay or go. If she likes you enough and you arent making apologies for it, she'll probably be back. What your friend told you is spot on.

So Findog, keep doing what you're doing. If or when you decide to pick one to be exclusive with, then you can cut things off with the other. Until that time business is business.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

FINDOG, this link is for you,..

https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/plate-theory-ii-non-exclusivity/