Solid morals equating to low value in today's society?

[HughJasolphd]

This may be me rambling in a 5am stupor, but I was laying here in bed & thought about something-

For as long as I can remember, I've had habits like this:
- Holding doors for just about everyone
- If a conversation goes on too long & someone says they have to go, I'll apologize for holding them up or say "don't let me hold you up" (justified as respecting their time)
- If I make eye contact with someone, I'll acknowledge them in some capacity ( a hello, a smile, a nod, etc)
- offering people stuff they don't ask for (example- if a nurse I have in the hospital comes in here, since I have a lot of extra snacks around I'll ask if they're hungry & offer them something to eat or drink)

It sounds harmless, but as I lay here & think about it, based on the feedback from others I'll do these things for, it doesn't seem appreciated, or maybe even thought of as weird...people don't say thank you when you hold doors, almost like they expect it of you- if I apologize for holding someone up, they never say it's all good & just continue on with their lives- Most people are ok with a simple hello, but I notice with my age group that many times the art of face to face communication is foreign to them because of social media & they think you're weird as **** for talking to them in person, etc

Growing up I was always told it was good to treat people as you'd want to be treated- that what you give is what you'll get back. In an era of extreme entitlement, it's almost as if these basic morals of being good natured is perceived as low value these days. Being kind or generous seems to put you in a position of weakness & have the potential for being treated like less than you are just because you had good intentions.

Over the past year or so I've become much more selective with who I give my kindness & generosity to. I know they say don't become what you hate, but I find myself refusing to tolerate disrespect & will occasionally say something if my kindness is taken as expectation (if I hold a door for someone & they don't say thank you, I'll say "you're welcome d!ck/b!tch" to the person )

I know it's impossible to get into the mind of another person & read their thoughts, but I write this out asking myself if the morals I was taught growing up are more of a hinderance than an asset. Sure, some people appreciate kindness, but it's a cold world out there- the entitlement is off the charts & it's crazy how just being a decent person can sometimes be taken as you being an absolute sucker, or treated as less just because you were taught to be kind.

Has anyone else had these kind of thoughts or experiences? Is being a kind & generous person considered low value these days?

I hope this makes sense & its not just half sleepy thoughts getting the better of me, but it certainly has me thinking.

 

[Marek]

A big question is: Why do you really treat other people nicely?
Are you doing it for them, to do something good for them?
Or are you doing it because you want them to like you?

Glover wrote a very good analysis of that: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/97642.No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy

 

[zekko]

people don't say thank you when you hold doors, almost like they expect it of you

I hold doors for people sometimes, I've found they almost always say thank you. And I will say thank you if someone holds the door for me.

I do think it is a damn shame that simple polite acts are looked at with such disdain and suspicion - especially in pickup circles, where everyone wants to be alpha and no one wants to be thought of as the nice guy.

Seems like a lot of people here preach selfishness, that only their own pleasure matters. I'm the last person to talk, because I'm unfortunately naturally very selfish, but it wouldn't hurt us to look beyond ourselves now and then.

 

[Spaz]

This may be me rambling in a 5am stupor, but I was laying here in bed & thought about something-

For as long as I can remember, I've had habits like this:
- Holding doors for just about everyone
- If a conversation goes on too long & someone says they have to go, I'll apologize for holding them up or say "don't let me hold you up" (justified as respecting their time)
- If I make eye contact with someone, I'll acknowledge them in some capacity ( a hello, a smile, a nod, etc)
- offering people stuff they don't ask for (example- if a nurse I have in the hospital comes in here, since I have a lot of extra snacks around I'll ask if they're hungry & offer them something to eat or drink)

It sounds harmless, but as I lay here & think about it, based on the feedback from others I'll do these things for, it doesn't seem appreciated, or maybe even thought of as weird...people don't say thank you when you hold doors, almost like they expect it of you- if I apologize for holding someone up, they never say it's all good & just continue on with their lives- Most people are ok with a simple hello, but I notice with my age group that many times the art of face to face communication is foreign to them because of social media & they think you're weird as **** for talking to them in person, etc

Growing up I was always told it was good to treat people as you'd want to be treated- that what you give is what you'll get back. In an era of extreme entitlement, it's almost as if these basic morals of being good natured is perceived as low value these days. Being kind or generous seems to put you in a position of weakness & have the potential for being treated like less than you are just because you had good intentions.

Over the past year or so I've become much more selective with who I give my kindness & generosity to. I know they say don't become what you hate, but I find myself refusing to tolerate disrespect & will occasionally say something if my kindness is taken as expectation (if I hold a door for someone & they don't say thank you, I'll say "you're welcome d!ck/b!tch" to the person )

I know it's impossible to get into the mind of another person & read their thoughts, but I write this out asking myself if the morals I was taught growing up are more of a hinderance than an asset. Sure, some people appreciate kindness, but it's a cold world out there- the entitlement is off the charts & it's crazy how just being a decent person can sometimes be taken as you being an absolute sucker, or treated as less just because you were taught to be kind.

Has anyone else had these kind of thoughts or experiences? Is being a kind & generous person considered low value these days?

I hope this makes sense & its not just half sleepy thoughts getting the better of me, but it certainly has me thinking.

I do open doors regularly.

I don't however expect anything in return (I couldn't care less if they acknowledge it) it's not about them, it's about me and the honor I place in my principles.

Go about doing things you consider honorable OP.

These are the standards you set in life.

 

[HughJasolphd]

A big question is: Why do you really treat other people nicely?
Are you doing it for them, to do something good for them?
Or are you doing it because you want them to like you?

Glover wrote a very good analysis of that: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/97642.No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy

I'd say I do it because it was how I was raised. To me it was always the norm to do the little things. I can't recall a time that I went out of my way to do something in hopes that they'd like me (at least as a grownup, as a little kid I think we all try to get favor of someone at some point by doing nice things for them).
I think I just thought about it hard & questioned why in today's society it seems frowned upon to do nice things.
Like for instance I was just walking the hall & locked eyes with a person walking towards me &I my conditioning would tell me to say hello, so I did. Dude gave me a deer in headlights look & kept on walking lol. Maybe it's South Florida that's like this...everyone here is extremely superficial & hardly act like humans anymore...weird times

 

[HughJasolphd]

Depends on how sociopathic the girl is and what her perception of you is.

I'm talking in the context of people as a whole, not just women. I feel like communication has soured with the people all around us in a lot of ways. If a girl likes me, I know holding a door or doing something kind will go over well, but the average person on the street seems generally turned off by acts of kindness..maybe it's how they were raised, maybe they're having a bad day, or maybe they just hate people & normal interaction.

One time I was at the mall & when I walked in I had a group of 3 girls on my tail following inside. They were all really attractive, & knew it. I didn't give a **** though & was there to buy pants for a job interview so I didn't have courting girls on my mind as much as nerves for the interview. I held the door open & not a single thank you. Going into the Macy's are double doors, so after opening the first door for them they actually waited for me to open the second door for them as if I was some kind of servant. I opened the door for myself & let it go so they couldn't follow in behind me. One of them loudly scoffs & goes "ugh, rude much?" Lol.

 

[lamath]

This may be me rambling in a 5am stupor, but I was laying here in bed & thought about something-

For as long as I can remember, I've had habits like this:
- Holding doors for just about everyone
- If a conversation goes on too long & someone says they have to go, I'll apologize for holding them up or say "don't let me hold you up" (justified as respecting their time)
- If I make eye contact with someone, I'll acknowledge them in some capacity ( a hello, a smile, a nod, etc)
- offering people stuff they don't ask for (example- if a nurse I have in the hospital comes in here, since I have a lot of extra snacks around I'll ask if they're hungry & offer them something to eat or drink)

It sounds harmless, but as I lay here & think about it, based on the feedback from others I'll do these things for, it doesn't seem appreciated, or maybe even thought of as weird...people don't say thank you when you hold doors, almost like they expect it of you- if I apologize for holding someone up, they never say it's all good & just continue on with their lives- Most people are ok with a simple hello, but I notice with my age group that many times the art of face to face communication is foreign to them because of social media & they think you're weird as **** for talking to them in person, etc

Growing up I was always told it was good to treat people as you'd want to be treated- that what you give is what you'll get back. In an era of extreme entitlement, it's almost as if these basic morals of being good natured is perceived as low value these days. Being kind or generous seems to put you in a position of weakness & have the potential for being treated like less than you are just because you had good intentions.

Over the past year or so I've become much more selective with who I give my kindness & generosity to. I know they say don't become what you hate, but I find myself refusing to tolerate disrespect & will occasionally say something if my kindness is taken as expectation (if I hold a door for someone & they don't say thank you, I'll say "you're welcome d!ck/b!tch" to the person )

I know it's impossible to get into the mind of another person & read their thoughts, but I write this out asking myself if the morals I was taught growing up are more of a hinderance than an asset. Sure, some people appreciate kindness, but it's a cold world out there- the entitlement is off the charts & it's crazy how just being a decent person can sometimes be taken as you being an absolute sucker, or treated as less just because you were taught to be kind.

Has anyone else had these kind of thoughts or experiences? Is being a kind & generous person considered low value these days?

I hope this makes sense & its not just half sleepy thoughts getting the better of me, but it certainly has me thinking.

Holding door, and saying Hi eye after some eye contact is great imo, it show confidence and that you are at ease in social setting.

The saying sorry for long conversation and offering food stop doing it.

It show some insecurities and a bit of neediness.
Offering food is beta af and a dont appologize for long conversation, they are lucky you are talking with them because you are entertaining af.


Just my opinion

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

For morals to be worth anything, they must come with a real choice of being immoral, otherwise they are just reframed weakness.

To be able to do and get away with evil yet choose not to is moral.

To reframe your sorry state as being moral is really the same as being a nice guy, who is really just a creep but too terrified to try and get some so he reframes his weakness as being nice, and then whines about nice guys finishing last. Nice guys don't finish last, WEAK GUYS finish last.

I disagree that holding a door ON ITS OWN is moral.

If you are holding the door because it is easier than saying hi and starting a conversation, it's a weak and chicken sh*t way of trying to interact with her.

If you hold doors for old ladies, homeless people, or people that you'd never want to hang out with, then that's being genuinely nice.

 

[wifehunter]

Society detests morality, so it's no surprise.

 

[HughJasolphd]

For morals to be worth anything, they must come with a real choice of being immoral, otherwise they are just reframed weakness.

To be able to do and get away with evil yet choose not to is moral.

To reframe your sorry state as being moral is really the same as being a nice guy, who is really just a creep but too terrified to try and get some so he reframes his weakness as being nice, and then whines about nice guys finishing last. Nice guys don't finish last, WEAK GUYS finish last.

I disagree that holding a door ON ITS OWN is moral.

If you are holding the door because it is easier than saying hi and starting a conversation, it's a weak and chicken sh*t way of trying to interact with her.

If you hold doors for old ladies, homeless people, or people that you'd never want to hang out with, then that's being genuinely nice.

Awesome insight. I generally don't do things for a thank you, me holding doors has become so unconscious at this point that I don't even think of it. It wasn't until laying in bed earlier did it cross my mind for some reason. I can't imagine holding a door just to open a chick, it seems too passive for my liking..if I want to talk to a chick,I just go & do it.
I'll always hold doors for old people, give a buck or two to a homeless person on the side of the road, & donate dog food to shelters a few times a year. I don't expect **** in return, I just want to attempt to make a dent in the bull**** out there & follow my moral compass as best I can.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

I'll always hold doors for old people, give a buck or two to a homeless person on the side of the road, & donate dog food to shelters a few times a year.

This is VERY solid strategy to build real self confidence. Every time you do something genuinely nice for somebody else and NOBODY KNOWS BUT YOU, you will increase your genuine self image. How you value yourself. When you get to the point where you truly feel the ONLY real person who has any right to judge you is YOU, most of the BS will fade away.

This is something plenty of people try to fake, even to themselves, and building it takes time, but it is a very worthy exercise.

 

[HughJasolphd]

This is VERY solid strategy to build real self confidence. Every time you do something genuinely nice for somebody else and NOBODY KNOWS BUT YOU, you will increase your genuine self image. How you value yourself. When you get to the point where you truly feel the ONLY real person who has any right to judge you is YOU, most of the BS will fade away.

This is something plenty of people try to fake, even to themselves, and building it takes time, but it is a very worthy exercise.

I know what it's like to go without, so any chance I can give to those who truly need it I will always act on that instinct- I genuinely get sick to my stomach when I see people who are in a bad spot. animals don't even get me started...if I had the means, I'd have acres of land full of dogs running freely that were about to be euthanized due to nobody giving them a fair chance. I am humbled anytime I see true pain & suffering. The other day I saw a st Jude's children hospital commercial for the holidays & I got super emotional..I haven't cried or teared up in a very long time- seeing this little kid with all these wires attached to him, bald as can be, getting chemo...but still smiling opening up Xmas gifts hit me like a Mack truck...I kept saying to myself "he has no idea how ****ing strong he is"...it humbled the **** out of me & the stuff I go through seemed like less of a burden in that moment. Even though it made me tear up, it lit a fire under my ass...it made me want to work hard as **** to earn the means to one day really find a way to help people in situations like that.

 

[Who Dares Win]

As tayiuu said morals has any value only when its a choice and not reframed weakness...if you dont shout at your neightbours cause you are patient its different that not shouting at them cause you are afraid they will report you at the police.

Personally I found myself guilty of reframed weakness from my youth where I was holding doors or being "nice" just out of weakness or possibly looking for approval or avoiding conflict.

Recently I accepted what I really am and this keepss me more in peace with myself, I dont leave my seat in the bus to old people or women actually I make a consciours effort not to look at them possibly wearing head phones...they benefit the most from the taxes I pay, I deserve that damn seat more than them since its me paying for the whole bus.

Same if I see women in distress with heavy bags, not my problem since I plan carefully anything before I travel or move...counting on suckers to do the heavy work for you shouldnt be the default plan.

I keep door open only if I like (not in a sexual sense) the person following me otherwise I just keep walking without even turning around, is it wrong? maybe.

I believe this high standard on morality expected on people basically made nice people even more nice while letting assh0les and cvnts to take full advantage of that...a good reset where people have to work for nicess would be great.

Something like "of course I'll help you with your bags" as long as she bothers to bake me a cake instead of taking it for granted.

 

[Trump]

One time I was at the mall & when I walked in I had a group of 3 girls on my tail following inside. They were all really attractive, & knew it. I didn't give a **** though & was there to buy pants for a job interview so I didn't have courting girls on my mind as much as nerves for the interview. I held the door open & not a single thank you.

What did you want them to say? ‘Thank you, we are going to take our clothes off and have sex with you?’

 

[HughJasolphd]

What did you want them to say? ‘Thank you, we are going to take our clothes off and have sex with you?’

I did mention in the post you quoted that I wasn't interested in them. Though common courtesy/class would be to say thank you to someone holding a door..the line about them taking their clothes off made no sense

 

[ohrein]

You do something because it's right and nothing more. It doesn't matter if someone appreciates it or not.

I don't think morals means low value at all, in fact, like attracts like. The type of women who will smile and cuddle up to you when they see you open a door for an older person are the type of women you want around. If anything it's a test to see what they're like. I could never spend time with anyone who doesn't appreciate kind gestures.

But even if it did lower your value, I'd still do it. It's better to die by your principles than live a life without them.

 

[Spaz]

Principles is part of frame.

Set out some good principles to hold on to a strong frame as it influences how you do things.

 

[Trump]

I did mention in the post you quoted that I wasn't interested in them.

For some reason I don't think you would have held the door open for three 6'2 Black guys.

 

[HughJasolphd]

For some reason I don't think you would have held the door open for three 6'2 Black guys.

I do all the time. Gender means nothing. If someone is walking behind me & im approaching a door, I hold it for whoever is there. I've always been that way.