Should i go 4-split?

[Rumpsteak]

Hey folks!

I started lifting about a week ago, and I'd like some input.

My split has been:

Monday - Legs/Abs
Wednesday - Chest/Tris/Shoulders
Friday - Back/Biceps

What I found was that, after doing chest excercises on wed, my tris were too tired to lift heavy. Same thing happened to bis on friday, killed by DL, BB and DB row. The day after though, they weren't sore at all. My theory is that they worked too many exercises and burned their energy without lifting very heavy themselves.

Today I got the idea of adding a short extra workout on sunday, for biceps and triceps, creating the following split:

Monday - Legs/Abs
Wednesday - Chest/Shoulders
Friday - Back
Sunday - Biceps/Triceps

What do you guys think of this idea?

My concerns:

*Will bis have enough time to recover friday->sunday from the back exercises?

* Will tris be fresh enough to do chest/shoulders on tuesday?

I get the impression that muscles will recover faster for beginners like me, so maybe I'll try this idea for a while and eventually go back to a 3-split.

I am 6'2 (1.85m), 190lbs (86kgs), not skinny or fat, but I have a little more fat than I'd like to. Natural strength is pretty good, especially legs from soccer and badminton (no longer training either of them, but ju-jutsu instead). Goal is to increase strength and muscle mass, perhaps eventually start cutting a bit.

Thanks beforehand for any input.

 

[manuva]

If you've only just started lifting then discard a split entirely. You're a beginner for Christ's sake. Something as ridiculous as a 4 way split is for very advanced lifters, and is usually a waste of time even for them.

Do a full body workout. It's all you need right now. Further down the track start to consider a 2 way split.

Generally, I laugh at the ridiculous splits people do here. It's egotistical masturbation. As a beginner, you don't need to do MORE splits, you need less. You just need one routine at the moment.

Oh, and for the record, I'm a highly qualified personal trainer, and an expensive one at that. Just for the record.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Ehhh manuva, I don't agree with what you say, but I won't get into it. As a personal trainer you'll have your own opinion and I'll respect that and not undermine your professionalism by arguing.

I firmly believe (and have seen it many times) that a beginning lifter will grow as long as they put 110% into a program, whichever program that may be.

I don't agree with a 4-day split though, seems a waste of growing time to me.

Rumpsteak, if you're doing BB row, DB row AND deadlifts then you're definitely going to have a sore back, and you'll be overtraining. I bet you do 3 sets of each too, right? Too many sets in my opinion. Drop an exercise and see how you go.

I don't believe in training biceps or triceps together either, for physiological reasons - short answer being they'd get in each other's way.

As for back/biceps, I always do biceps first, then back - try doing a really heavy deadlift and then a barbell curl! Likewise, I always leave quads last on leg day (I don't start with squats or hacks or whatever).

Review your sets and reps. I'd do two exercises per bodypart and train to momentary failure, with a warmup set or two (which shouldn't be too taxing).

You may want to look into some extreme stretching and/or glutamine to aid recovery.

 

[Rumpsteak]

Thanks for the input guys.

manuva - I've gotten the impression from many places that full body workouts are not as good for gaining strength/muscle, even for beginners, as splitting. I've really no intention of starting a debate, but could you give me a brief list of pros/cons of full body workouts for beginners. If I work out the entire body Mon/Wed/Fri, will I have enough time to recover/rebuild between each session? Do I have enough energy to do both heavy DLs, squats and benches in one workout? Or should I ignore these exercises that many others seem to be preaching? I'm honestly curious since there seems to be very differing opinions. With all respects.

Alex - Very interesting thoughts. I will not do a 4-day split. Doing biceps first sounds like a really good idea. I also need a better setup of sets/reps. What is momentary failure compared to ordinary failure? (english is not my native language, swedish is). If I aim at 1x10, 1x8, 1x6 with failure on the last two and the first as a warmup set, will this work for most exercises?

Thanks.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Momentary failure is just ordinary failure with a different name, lol. Basically as soon as you fail, you stop, you don't go in for another rep or have a spotter help you or anything.

In regards to what you said to Manuva, you could do a two-day split as it were, half your body each time. With approprate sets/reps, rest and food then yes, your body can recover and grow between sessions.

 

[Rumpsteak]

. With approprate sets/reps, rest and food then yes, your body can recover and grow between sessions.

With a 2-day split or full body workout?

 

[Warboss Alex]

2-day split, unless you're superhuman!

Monday - Back, Triceps, Chest, Shoulders
Wednesday - Quads, Calves, Hamstrings, Biceps, Forearms.
Friday - as Monday
Monday - as Wednesday
etc ..

(yes you get the weekend off!)

 

[MrLuvr]

I am doing the exact same split and I am having the exact same problem.

By the time I have finished chest and shoulders, I do not seem to have enough energy left over to do triceps. I manage to get two shaky sets of dips in before I give up. But, i do find that triceps feel tender after doing the chest exercises. So, maybe there is enough there to make them grow.

Also having the same issue on back and biceps days.

But, I always thought it was recommended that you exercise the bigger muscles first before you move to the smaller ones. Alex are you telling us that this is not the way to go?

 

[Warboss Alex]

Eh.. there's a good argument to be made that triceps and biceps don't need any direct training to grow since they get worked through chest exercises, deadlifts, etc.

MrLuvr, I doubt I'd be able to do two sets of dips (even without added weight) after (I assume) two sets of chest and two of shoulders - that's definitely too much.

I'm not saying that such and such a way is THE way .. but you could try this. Do ONE (intense) set for each bodypart, i.e. one for chest, one for shoulders, one for triceps. I.e. take an exercise and go to failure on it, then that's it for the bodypart. That's definitely my recommendation if you're doing a two-day split. If you're training as hard as you can, there's no way you can do triceps after multiple sets of chest and shoulders.

Like I said, this isn't THE way, but it's what I'd advise to avoid overtraining and still be able to work out at peak efficiency.

If you'd like an alternative three-day split you could try:
Chest/Triceps
Back/Biceps/Forearms
Legs/Shoulders

This way, you should be able to pick two exercises for each bodypart and take them to failure more or less at peak efficiency.

For example, Chest/Triceps:
DB Press, taken to failure.
Decline bench, taken to failure.
Skullcrushers, taken to failure.
Close grip bench, taken to failure.

When I mean failure I mean is when you fail to complete the positive part of a movement, i.e. you're curling a dumb-bell - when you can't curl it back up, you're at failure, rest for a coupla minutes then go to the next exercise.

Overtraining, recovery etc. are very individual - find out which method suits you. When you're able to complete a workout (fighting hard) and then afterwards feel as if you can't do anymore, then you're in what I'd call the proper intensity zone.

As for training big muscle groups first, I don't necessarily agree. Basically, I find I'm not able to do anything after a quad workout (widowmaker squats) except shake and quiver and thank the gods that I survived the ordeal - definitely I'm in no state to train calves or hamstrings or whatever else, hence why I leave quads and back 'til last.

Chest I do first, and find I'm able to do shoulders and triceps after this quite efficiently - again, this is me and might not work for you. Make sure that in your chest exercises you're not using your shoulders (pin them back) and triceps (keep those elbows tucked in) too much, that should ensure they don't get TOO fried..

 

[Julian]

Theres nothing wrong with a 3 day split. Maybe you need to adjust the exercises your doing.

 

[semag]

Alex, I've found that the routine i've been workin on for a while doesn't leave my tries THAT fried on chest day.

1 RP set flat bench, index fingers on rings
2x6 decline, pinkie on rings,
2x10 dips
1x10 upright rows

I guess tho, doing 1 flat chest and 2 decline is not the same as 3 flat, 3 inlcline, and 3 decline + flys that a lot of people out there do

 

[Rumpsteak]

2-day split, unless you're superhuman!

Who knows?


Well I think I'll just stick to my 3-day split and try some adjustions to exercises/sets/reps, possibly moving shoulders to monday:

Mon: Legs/Shoulders/Abs
Wed: Chest/Tris
Fri: Back/Bis

Possibly adding an extra abs and calves on fri or an offday. Been having no trouble with these, just that I feel I could put more strain on them by giving them two beatings/week.

 

[semag]

how many sets/reps do you do each day?

 

[MindOverMatter]

you can easily do tricep sets after bench/military press if you do the former 2 exercises properly so they mostly involve the selected muscle groups and triceps don't come into the act as much.

for example, when I do bench, I use a really wide grip, and I lift the bar like 2-3 inches up before I lower it down. This way, my chest feels it all, and my triceps barely come into play. if you extend your arms all the way when you bench, and you use a less wider grip, tris will fully come into play.

same with military press.

on my chest or shoulder days, I keep the focus on those muscle groups rather then triceps.

 

[Rumpsteak]

how many sets/reps do you do each day?

Still experimenting... I've tried 3x8, 1x10+1x8+1x6, 1x8+1x6+1x4.
Always used 3 sets though, maybe I should experiment with that as well.

I've seen many different recommendations on this. I also get the impression that it varies with the bodypart.

I'll stick to a 3-day split and experiment with exercise order/sets/reps.

Question: What factors are important when deciding sets/reps for a specific muscle group?

 

[Warboss Alex]

Eh, how can you know that something works until you've tried it for a while? Do 3x8 for a month or two, then pyramid, then whatever. Don't switch it up every workout.

I'm all for rest-pausing, myself.

 

[Rumpsteak]

Sorry for being unclear, I obviously don't know what's effective without trying it for a while. What I mean is to find a workout program that feels good.

When you refer to 3x8, is that with a constant or increasing weight between sets?

 

[Warboss Alex]

If you're gonna do 3x8 then I'd do constant weight.

That way, you should be able to get the full 8 reps on your first couple of sets, and 5-6 in the last.

Next time you can either add weight or try for the full 3x8 - I'd add weight personally.

If you're going to do a 3xsomething, why not rest pause?

Constant weight, do one set until failure; take a dozen very deep breaths; immediately do another set to failure (you should get half the reps); another dozen deep breaths; a third and final set - you should get two or three reps.

Count the total reps you do at the weight in question, next time try to get more reps or add weight as above.

 

[Rumpsteak]

Alright I tried the 3x8 yesterday on leg day. Tried squats for the first time - I was sweating like a pig and i loved it!

I wasn't sure how much I could take or how much the bar weighed so this is how I went:
8x70kg (154lbs)
8x80kg (176lbs)
8x90kg (198lbs)
(+the bar)

I think I need to improve my form though, since I felt my quads didn't get enough spanking. My lower back/glutes did though. I read somewhere that your knees should go more forward to put more pressure on the quads. Aiming for 8x100kg next time with improved form.

Calf Raises (did 3x10 on these instead, trying out the weight here as well)
10x60kg (132lbs)
10x70kg (154lbs)
10x80kg (176lbs)
(+bar here as well)

Felt pretty good, but I'll start at 70 or 80 next time and see how it goes.

Hamstring curl
8x65kg
8x75kg
8x85kg

Abs:

Crunches
10x0kg (warmup)
10x15kg
15x20kg (Needed more weight so I went to the "crunch machine" or whatever it's called )

Crunch machine
8x65kg
8x75kg
3x85kg (failure)

Still trying weights on almost everything... Will be aiming for constant weights for 8, 8, 6 next time.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Try a wider stance if your quads aren't feeling it .. legs should be shoulder-width apart or a little wider. Narrower stance will work the glutes more.