Re: Thoughts on Women and Social Value

[LonesomeLoser]

I don't know at what point a thread has been inactive too long and shouldn't be posted in again. So this is regarding a thread from 3/7/08 with the above title, http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1357211#post1357211

It all comes down to her social status. Women want what they can't have. They want to progress. Not regress. All of her life, Hollywood and shows like Lifestyles of the Rich, Famous and Beautiful have brain washed her into wanting something more for herself and showing her what she has been missing. To improve, or at least, maintain her social status, she would have to align herself with the highest value male. The best possible mate to not only father her babies, but to be able to take care of them as well.

emphasis mine

My question on this is: if most in here would agree with that term "brain washed" in this context, and I'll assume here that's the case and if not you all can always correct me, then doesn't "brain washed" imply that these are erroneous beliefs women are being fed? The beliefs that social status matters, that getting a man who meets her friends approval is important, that having friends at all is important. If they have to be "brain washed" to believe this, they must be erroneous. So we're learning how to navigate in the world of women, in a way that legitimizes these erroneous beliefs?

Here's what I truly believe concerning social status, value, etc. Sometime if you have the stomach, look at some pictures from a morgue. Look at how hideous the corpses are when they start to decompose. Discolored, cold, pasty, clammy, hideous, godawful smelling lumps of decaying meat. And maybe just hours ago or at least days ago, these were human beings, full of life, wanting social status, wanting the approval of others, wanting to accomplish this or that, and experience this or that. Some of those people in the morgue accomplished a lot, some accomplished little, some accomplished nothing at all. Are the corpses of those who accomplished a lot any less disgusting to look at than those who accomplished nothing? Nope. Do you care what this person accomplished in life when you're looking at (or smelling if you're there in person) their corpse? No you just want to get the hell out of there.

That's why I see so much of this social striving, improving, dreaming, to be so utterly pointless. That's why I would much rather just avoid life as much as possible, gladly passing up any pleasant experiences just to avoid the unpleasant ones. This is also why I find it so curious that people like me who have little interest in other people except if I can get something from them (even if its only good feelings of being with them, that's still using them for something) are viewed as inferior in some way. I think I just recognize what life is: you go to work, pay the bills, grow old, die and decompose and stink.

So since that's all life is, should we really be legitimizing these beliefs that women have been "brain washed" (the OP's words not mine) into adopting? Women I think are much more socially minded than men. If we try to play their social games we're only legitimizing them. If there were only some way to teach women the pointlessness of all this striving, concern for social status, approval of peers, etc. I know I'm being a little too idealistic there. I just have decided that the social games are beneath me and I refuse to engage in such childishness.

 

[armadon]

That's why I would much rather just avoid life as much as possible, gladly passing up any pleasant experiences just to avoid the unpleasant ones. This is also why I find it so curious that people like me who have little interest in other people except if I can get something from them (even if its only good feelings of being with them, that's still using them for something) are viewed as inferior in some way. I think I just recognize what life is: you go to work, pay the bills, grow old, die and decompose and stink.

You contribute nothing to life or the human species that's why you are viewed as inferior.

 

[penkitten]

rollo posted a really good thread a while back about girls and the way we are brought up, but i can not think of the name of it.
you might pm him and let him help you find it.

 

[Interceptor]

The Origin Of This Book
I have little use for the past and rarely think about it; however, I would briefly like to tell you how I came to be a spiritual teacher and how this book came into existence.
Until my thirtieth year, I lived in a state of almost continuous anxiety interspersed with periods of suicidal depression. It feels now as if I am talking about some past lifetime or somebody else's life.
One night not long after my twenty-ninth birthday, I woke up in the early hours with a feeling of absolute dread. I had woken up with such a feeling many times before, but this time it was more intense than it had ever been. The silence of the night, the vague outlines of the furniture in the dark room, the distant noise of a passing train - everything felt so alien, so hostile, and so utterly meaningless that it created in me a deep loathing of the world. The most loathsome thing of all, however, was my own existence. What was the point in continuing to live with this burden of misery? Why carry on with this continuous struggle? I could feel that a deep longing for annihilation, for nonexistence, was now becoming much stronger than the instinctive desire to continue to live.
"I cannot live with myself any longer." This was the thought that kept repeating itself in my mind. Then suddenly I became aware of what a peculiar thought it was. `Am I one or two? If I cannot live with myself, there must be two of me: the `I' and the `self' that `I' cannot live with." "Maybe," I thought, "only one of them is real."
I was so stunned by this strange realization that my mind stopped. I was fully conscious, but there were no more thoughts. Then I felt drawn into what seemed like a vortex of energy. It was a slow movement at first and then accelerated. I was gripped by an intense fear, and my body started to shake. I heard the words "resist nothing," as if spoken inside my chest. I could feel myself being sucked into a void. It felt as if the void was inside myself rather than outside. Suddenly, there was no more fear, and I let myself fall into that void. I have no recollection of what happened after that.
I was awakened by the chirping of a bird outside the window. I had never heard such a sound before. My eyes were still closed, and I saw the image of a precious diamond. Yes, if a diamond could make a sound, this is what it would be like. I
8
opened my eyes. The first light of dawn was filtering through the curtains. Without any thought, I felt, I knew, that there is infinitely more to light than we realize. That soft luminosity filtering through the curtains was love itself. Tears came into my eyes. I got up and walked around the room. I recognized the room, and yet I knew that I had never truly seen it before. Everything was fresh and pristine, as if it had just come into existence. I picked up things, a pencil, an empty bottle, marveling at the beauty and aliveness of it all.
That day I walked around the city in utter amazement at the miracle of life on earth, as if I had just been born into this world.
For the next five months, I lived in a state of uninterrupted deep peace and bliss. After that, it diminished somewhat in intensity, or perhaps it just seemed to because it became my natural state. I could still function in the world, although I realized that nothing I ever did could possibly add anything to what I already had.
I knew, of course, that something profoundly significant had happened to me, but I didn't understand it at all. It wasn't until several years later, after I had read spiritual texts and spent time with spiritual teachers, that I realized that what everybody was looking for had already happened to me. I understood that the intense pressure of suffering that night must have forced my consciousness to withdraw from its identification with the unhappy and deeply fearful self, which is ultimately a fiction of the mind. This withdrawal must have been so complete that this false, suffering self immediately collapsed, just as if a plug had been pulled out of an inflatable toy. What was left then was my true nature as the ever-present I am: consciousness in its pure state prior to identification with form. Later I also learned to go into that inner timeless and deathless realm that I had originally perceived as a void and remain fully conscious. I dwelt in states of such indescribable bliss and sacredness that even the original experience I just described pales in comparison. A time came when, for a while, I was left with nothing on the physical plane. I had no relationships, no job, no home, no socially defined identity. I spent almost two years sitting on park benches in a state of the most intense joy.






Eckhart Tolle-Introduction to The Power of Now

 

[LonesomeLoser]

I'm familiar with the Power of Now. May be something to it, maybe not, but it takes too much concentration to walk around every moment keeping my mind always in the present. I can't do it, I don't have the discipline so it's a nice idea but at the end of the day it's useless to me. But anyway, what does this have to do with my original post? About whether women are being fed erroneous beliefs and if we are legitimizing them?

 

[Entropy4]

First of all, they're not "brainwashed", it's an evolutionary instinct to seek the mate with the highest social value possible. There's a lot more to social value than nice cars and big houses though.

That's why I see so much of this social striving, improving, dreaming, to be so utterly pointless.

Why? Because it's temporary? Guess what, life is temporary. So what? This is the stupidest argument I ever come across: "We're all going to die anyway, so what's the point?" What's the point? If you're making this argument, you're dead already. Why? BECAUSE YOU'RE AFRAID TO LIVE. Face your fears. Stop rationalizing this retarded pseudo-philosophical ****.

That's why I would much rather just avoid life as much as possible, gladly passing up any pleasant experiences just to avoid the unpleasant ones.

Again, you're dead. You are controlled by your fear to the point where you consciously choose not to live. What's wrong with unpleasant experiences? Unpleasant experiences can be the most important and enlightening experiences of your life. They can bring you the closest to death and show you the limits of your own mortality. What's wrong with that? Good or bad, it's all experience, and all experience leads to growth. So you can get out there and grow and enjoy the world to the largest extent possible, or you can surrender to fear and die: cold, miserable, endlessly indifferent and crippled.

This is also why I find it so curious that people like me who have little interest in other people except if I can get something from them (even if its only good feelings of being with them, that's still using them for something) are viewed as inferior in some way. I think I just recognize what life is: you go to work, pay the bills, grow old, die and decompose and stink.

You're not "inferior" because you don't care about people who don't add value to your life. You're inferior because you don't ADD value to other people's. I don't allow people who don't give me value into my life. But I always make sure I'm adding value into other people's lives. You can never receive value for more than a short period of time if you're not constantly giving value to others. It's because value you receive is fleeting. It's empty. The only way to maintain that value is to maintain giving value.

It sounds like you walk through life until you WANT something from somebody. At that point you give value until you get it and then you stop. That person leaves, and eventually the value they provided leaves as well and you're miserable again. Start adding value to other people's lives, you'll get 10x more in return.

May be something to it, maybe not, but it takes too much concentration to walk around every moment keeping my mind always in the present.

Oh, so sorry to disturb you. It's WAY too much concentration. God knows you're so busy with so many more important things going on constantly.

I can't do it

Yes, you can. You choose not to.

I don't have the discipline

You choose not to have the discipline.

so it's a nice idea but at the end of the day it's useless to me.

YOU are useless to you. YOU are standing in your own way. YOU are preventing you from getting out there and DOING SOMETHING with life because YOU are scared ****ing ****less of the world.

But anyway, what does this have to do with my original post?

Your original post was plagued with a bunch of nihilist thought-crap, which deserves more attention than whining about women and your idea of social status.

About whether women are being fed erroneous beliefs and if we are legitimizing them?

Again, they're not "fed' these beliefs. Social value and status have existed thousands of years before the TV was even thought of. The guy with the giant house or the nice car is just the new version of the guy with the biggest stick or the most meat. Get used to it. But if you actually got out there and did something, you'd recognize that possessions and money make up a miniscule proportion of what social value actually is. Social value is self-respect, self-actualization, giving value, confidence, warmth and positivity. Right now you have none of it.

 

[FutureSpartan]

Entropy Bullseye :cheer:

 

[LonesomeLoser]

You contribute nothing to life or the human species that's why you are viewed as inferior.

Actually I've always believed that it's herd mentality. If someone is different from the herd, it must be inferior. So because most people apparently have a preference for being around people and engaging in acitivies that involve other people, anyone who doesn't and only wants a girlfriend to build him up and tend to his insecurities (or at least try to), sit at home and cuddle with and tell each other I love you a couple dozen times a day, must be inferior. Even though its just a matter of him having different preferences from them, no more than preferring one flavor of ice cream over another. They go "clubbing" and partying, hang out with their buddies and look cool, and if they work with or come across someone like me, its fun to look down their noses at him because its the "in" thing to do. And also, people generally just aren't very nice. That's why I'm viewed as inferior in some way.

And if you may ask "if you have no interest in other people why do you care what they think of you"....unfortunately I have a desire to be with a woman so she can fulfill my needs, and unfortunately I have to go out of the house to work and support myself because I don't have a rich relative who can leave me a fortune. And unfortunately I can't control a woman and force her to do what I want without having to give her anything in return, and you're goddamn right I would if I could. So I HAVE to have dealings with others unfortunately. If I had no such desires and didn't have any need to leave the house I would probably never be seen again the rest of my life. But because I have to have dealings with people, their bullsh!t of viewing me as inferior just because I have different preferences from most people is something I find irritating. But its my lot in life and I have to accept it, but I don't have to like it.

 

[reset]

So you want the company of a woman but at the same time refuse to accept that you are a social creature and want interaction with other people.

So you're not only afraid of rejection from women, but rejection from every other human.

And you mask that fear by saying you don't care, or even that you're kind of above it. But how can you feel above it with a user-name like you have.
You're blowing your own cover.

You can't get needs met while simultaneously denying you have those needs.

You're obviously terrified of being "exposed" to life. You have no positive sense of self. Part of you knows this is a big problem otherwise you wouldn't be here, or broadcast how much you really desire social contact with that god-awful name.

You have to decide why you are here. Many guys here have had the same feelings but come to acknowledge that they have to change certain things about themselves. It's not easy, but you can't change and deny you have to change at the same time.

If you're just looking for people to pity you I think you came to the wrong place. You're living the victim mentality, it's painful. The only way out is to acknowledge that you are responsible for your life and make efforts to change your mindset.

You need to be honest with yourself. If you can't be honest with yourself, you'll never get close to what you want.

 

[Entropy4]

Actually I've always believed that it's herd mentality. If someone is different from the herd, it must be inferior. So because most people apparently have a preference for being around people and engaging in acitivies that involve other people, anyone who doesn't and only wants a girlfriend to build him up and tend to his insecurities (or at least try to), sit at home and cuddle with and tell each other I love you a couple dozen times a day, must be inferior. Even though its just a matter of him having different preferences from them, no more than preferring one flavor of ice cream over another. They go "clubbing" and partying, hang out with their buddies and look cool, and if they work with or come across someone like me, its fun to look down their noses at him because its the "in" thing to do. And also, people generally just aren't very nice. That's why I'm viewed as inferior in some way.

More rationalizations. More nonsense. There are plenty of recluse's that are valuable and not "inferior". This has nothing to do with being social or a "herd" mentality. Your non-conformist obsession is ironically so conformist, it's funny.

The reason you're "inferior" is because you add no value to those around you, you simply take it. I don't care if you sit on your couch all day every day and never leave the house. That's your choice. There's nothing "inferior" about it. Do you think people actually CARE enough to think that about you? Do you have some illusion that you're that important to them for them to think that? NO! This is ALL IN YOUR HEAD. Everyone has 1,000,000 more important things to think about than how "cool" you are. Your outlook on society is that of a 12 year old's. Maybe if you got out and talked to people, you'd understand that most people do their own things and don't really care what others are doing.

And if you may ask "if you have no interest in other people why do you care what they think of you"....unfortunately I have a desire to be with a woman so she can fulfill my needs

This is extremely self-absorbed. You'll never get a woman if you continue to think like this.

and unfortunately I have to go out of the house to work and support myself because I don't have a rich relative who can leave me a fortune.

So unfortunate. You actually have to live life like the rest of us.

And unfortunately I can't control a woman and force her to do what I want without having to give her anything in return, and you're goddamn right I would if I could. So I HAVE to have dealings with others unfortunately. If I had no such desires and didn't have any need to leave the house I would probably never be seen again the rest of my life. But because I have to have dealings with people, their bullsh!t of viewing me as inferior just because I have different preferences from most people is something I find irritating. But its my lot in life and I have to accept it, but I don't have to like it.

Your views on society and your place in it are pretty warped. You need to get out and talk to some people. Try giving value and being friendly while expecting nothing in return. You may be surprised what happens.

 

[dannyegg4575]

Your views on society and your place in it are pretty warped. You need to get out and talk to some people. Try giving value and being friendly while expecting nothing in return. You may be surprised what happens.

I agree to a lot of what you say but this. I used to believe that this is the right way to live. I have tried to do so much and tried so hard to give without expecting in return. At first it all seems like it's a very virtuous thing to do but I found later that though you have helped people, sometimes, people don't really need your help or at worst, they put up a front to bring you down from your values. I have helped many people in the past 4 years and each time i did, I somehow found out that behind my back, i am being stabbed repeatedly.

i am reminded of the story about the scorpion and the frog. they both needed to get across a river. The scorpion asked the frog to help it cross the river. The frog was dubious and asked, "what if you decided to sting me? I'll die." The scorpion then replied, "Of course I wouldn't sting you. if I sting you, I'll die as well." Convinced, the frog then carried the scorpion on his back. Half way through, the scorpion stung the frog. The frog then asked, "why? why did you do that? You'll drown as well." the scorpion then said, 'i'm a scorpion, I do what i was made to do."

 

[Warrior74]

I agree to a lot of what you say but this. I used to believe that this is the right way to live. I have tried to do so much and tried so hard to give without expecting in return. At first it all seems like it's a very virtuous thing to do but I found later that though you have helped people, sometimes, people don't really need your help or at worst, they put up a front to bring you down from your values. I have helped many people in the past 4 years and each time i did, I somehow found out that behind my back, i am being stabbed repeatedly.

i am reminded of the story about the scorpion and the frog. they both needed to get across a river. The scorpion asked the frog to help it cross the river. The frog was dubious and asked, "what if you decided to sting me? I'll die." The scorpion then replied, "Of course I wouldn't sting you. if I sting you, I'll die as well." Convinced, the frog then carried the scorpion on his back. Half way through, the scorpion stung the frog. The frog then asked, "why? why did you do that? You'll drown as well." the scorpion then said, 'i'm a scorpion, I do what i was made to do."

Dood.its a difference between meeting people and making friend and helping people.

 

[ItsOnNow]

This is one thing that has had me worried for a long time. Strong/social peer group,value,etc. Yet,upon finding this site,it has made me think. Shouldn't she bend to you,as opposed to you trying to win her? I mean,perhaps I am getting something wrong,but isn't that spoiling her? This whole adding value thing,how do you do it without getting used? What if you aren't the most attractive guy? I am not even super picky,I see average women I find attractive,hell,even some fat women,oh sure,I want to bang the 10's,but ultimatley,I want someone who likes me for me unconditionally,I have never liekd the idead of always going along with the group,that's when people get used or manipulated in some way or another. It happens. Is it that women are brought up differently? I mean,it seams to me,all any guy wants is to find a nice girl,settle down,and start a family.But that natural way of things has been used against them,due to various social movements of the past decades. What if you don't have enough or any social value? What if you want it,but can't seem to get it? What happened to two people meeting,and getting married? Why does it all come down to this value thing?

 

[Entropy4]

I agree to a lot of what you say but this. I used to believe that this is the right way to live. I have tried to do so much and tried so hard to give without expecting in return. At first it all seems like it's a very virtuous thing to do but I found later that though you have helped people, sometimes, people don't really need your help or at worst, they put up a front to bring you down from your values. I have helped many people in the past 4 years and each time i did, I somehow found out that behind my back, i am being stabbed repeatedly.

How can you be stabbed in the back if you expect nothing in return? How can you lose what you didn't have to begin with?

I'm not talking about charity here, I'm talking about simply caring. I'm talking about being a positive force on those around you as opposed to a negative force. I'm not asking to FIX everyone around you, because that's subtley a very selfish act. I'm simply refering to giving value where you receive it.

 

[dannyegg4575]

How can you be stabbed in the back if you expect nothing in return? How can you lose what you didn't have to begin with?

I'm not talking about charity here, I'm talking about simply caring. I'm talking about being a positive force on those around you as opposed to a negative force. I'm not asking to FIX everyone around you, because that's subtley a very selfish act. I'm simply refering to giving value where you receive it.

I'm not saying not to be kind to others, I'm saying to be careful who you help. some ppl are born the way they are born. Experience taught me that every time I helped someone, they aren't as reciprocated in accepting the help.

 

[ItsOnNow]

Yes.I say the same. Be kind,treat others the way you want to be treated,but be careful who you go out of your way to help. Watch out for people who expect you to do everything for them,or who complain when you can't or won't do everything for them. That is how you get used. Ask yourself,would they do the same for me if I needed it? That's not selfishness. That's smart's.

 

[Entropy4]

Yes.I say the same. Be kind,treat others the way you want to be treated,but be careful who you go out of your way to help. Watch out for people who expect you to do everything for them,or who complain when you can't or won't do everything for them. That is how you get used. Ask yourself,would they do the same for me if I needed it? That's not selfishness. That's smart's.

So don't help them. I don't understand the issue here. I'm the first person to tell people like this to get the **** out of my life and don't come back.

"Giving value" doesn't necessarily mean "helping somebody." "Helping somebody," like I said before, can often be an egoic endeavour, with subtle selfish intentions, especially if the person isn't ready or doesn't want to be helped.

When I say "give value" I mean be a positive influence on those around you, not a negative one. This can be as simple as smiling at someone.

Charity is a completely different conversation.

 

[CasanovaFrankenstein]

I think I understand what Entropy is saying. A person who has a lot to offer others, just because he is a well-rounded individual always trying to realize his potential, doesn't even have to try to add value to the lives of others. He'll have people lined up around the block just to get them into his life in some way, either as a lover, friend, business partner, wanting to be mentored by him, wanting whatever goods or services he provides in his work, etc. It's nothing so involved as walking around looking for people who he can do something for; he has more people coming to him than he can keep up with.

Edit: and to the OP, one can definitely ask "what if it doesn't matter how I lived (or didn't live) my life?" But one could just as legitimately ask "what if it does?", and I'm not even talking about a supreme being or an afterlife. It could just be that you don't know how you will feel on your deathbed years from now, when you look back on all the things you would have liked to do but didn't try or tried briefly and gave up. Asking what might have been. Maybe you won't care when you're on your deathbed. But what if you find you do? And its too late? The hard part is creating a sense of urgency because it seems like a long way away (or so we assume). Maybe that could motivate you? Not wanting to put yourself in that position, of possibly being heartbroken at the end of your life knowing all the opportunities you wasted, all the adventures you could have had, all the fun, all the love, all the enjoyment. IF you care when you're drawing your last breaths, it will be a horrible feeling.

One more thing: if you can, do some research on the concept of "map of reality". We all have one, and we (usually unconsciously) resist whenever someone or something attempts to tell us that our map isn't helping us anymore and needs to be revised. I can't get into detail now, but unconsciously you may believe that your way of looking at reality has gotten you through whatever painful times you've had in life, and tinkering with that way of looking at life can (unconsciously) be a matter of playing with your own survival. It got you this far, so changing anything can be scary, even terrifying at least on an unconscious level. Google "map of reality" and also "Bill Harris" (he was in the Secret and makes meditation CDs) and see what you find. Good luck.

 

[Entropy4]

I think I understand what Entropy is saying. A person who has a lot to offer others, just because he is a well-rounded individual always trying to realize his potential, doesn't even have to try to add value to the lives of others. He'll have people lined up around the block just to get them into his life in some way, either as a lover, friend, business partner, wanting to be mentored by him, wanting whatever goods or services he provides in his work, etc. It's nothing so involved as walking around looking for people who he can do something for; he has more people coming to him than he can keep up with.

Yes, this is more of what I'm refering to. When I say "give value" it's more of a passive activity: being open to others, being a positive influence for other people. I am NOT talking about active sacrifice.

 

[dannyegg4575]

Virtue of helping those who asked for you help is the best way to live within your ability.