Questions about squats etc

[GodsGiftToFatBirds]

Hi, I posted these same questions on another thread.

They probably weren't well enough read though so thought i'd post them on a new thread, to get a few more people to read them:

Got couple questions bout squats etc:

Tried them for the first time properly today since so many people have recommended them (i've had an induction on them before so know the technique but never used them).

Firstly, is it safe to push yourself to failure on them without a spotter?
I built it up till i was doing 85kg going real low (like backside almost touching the floor low) but got the feeling i might fail on any more than that. And with not having a spotter, i wasn't sure if it was safe to push myself to a weight i might fail on. In fact, could a spotter actually help if you were failing on squats?

Secondly, is the bar supposed to dig right into your neck or is that because you're resting it on the wrong bit? I had a towel round but could still feel it digging in.

Thirdly, to Effort, whats the idea of doing 1 x 20? And why is that never mentioned for other exercises too?

Finally, i also tried lunges with a barbell today. Same question as for squats: is it safe to push yourself to failure on this exercise without the help of a spotter?

 

[Alpine]

I answered all these questions. Were the answers not to your liking?

 

[MetalFortress]

No failure. I rest the bar on my lower neck and upper shoulders. No barbells for lunges - use dumbbells.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Always have a spotter unless you're in a power cage with safety bars or using a smith machine. For lunges this is less of an issue since you could just drop the barbell behind you, but I still would recommend a spotter. (I don't see the point of lunges if you can squat by the way!!)

It rests across your shoulders and does dig into your neck a bit, yes, you just get used to it. Most gyms have foam sections to put on the barbells for this.

The 1x20 is often used in conjunction with an earlier, heavier set. Like 4-8 reps for your heaviest weight, then immediately drop the weight by 25-40% and grind out 20 reps (save this to the end of your workout because it is guaranteed to make you dizzy, faint, headachey, might even make you puke - but it'll change your quads like nothing else). This is often called the 'widowmaker' set and employs what I BELIEVE is called the pre-exhaustion technique (the heavy set zaps your muscles so the lighter one recruits more fibres for more overall work - don't quote me on this though, I don't go in for names of stuff much, lol).

 

[MrFitness880]

good posts so far, but i have a couple things to add...

the bar should not dig into your neck. it should rest on your traps and your rear delts. by squeezing your traps, and puffing your chest out (and your butt out in the opposite direction) you put yourself in the proper position to squat...beginning by squatting back and then down.

i also suggest not using a pad. oddly enough you may find it hurts less w/ more weight. find your groove for the bar, get used to that and you wont really notice it any more. there is a point where a pad wont really help much any more.

check out www.exrx.net, go to exercise instruction and check out the squat to see exactly what i mean.

a widowmaker is not just one smooth set of 20. its a set of ten where the tenth rep is a very difficult rep. then one proceeds to take a couple deep breaths and do a couple more (or even one more) up to 20. if you have more in you, keep going. these are very damaging sets...be ready mentally

pre exhaustion is when one takes a movement like flyes to use up some energy before a bench press...i also think this is probably one of the least efficient training techniques out there. it uses ATP without forcing your muscles to work with any real weight

 

[semag]

I think rather than pre-exhaustion, the heavy set followed by the widowmaker primes your CNS by making you go heavy, and then the widowmaker set feels lighter, thus allowing you to crank out more... theoretically.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Originally posted by MrFitness880
good posts so far, but i have a couple things to add...

the bar should not dig into your neck. it should rest on your traps and your rear delts. by squeezing your traps, and puffing your chest out (and your butt out in the opposite direction) you put yourself in the proper position to squat...beginning by squatting back and then down.

i also suggest not using a pad. oddly enough you may find it hurts less w/ more weight. find your groove for the bar, get used to that and you wont really notice it any more. there is a point where a pad wont really help much any more.

check out www.exrx.net, go to exercise instruction and check out the squat to see exactly what i mean.

a widowmaker is not just one smooth set of 20. its a set of ten where the tenth rep is a very difficult rep. then one proceeds to take a couple deep breaths and do a couple more (or even one more) up to 20. if you have more in you, keep going. these are very damaging sets...be ready mentally

pre exhaustion is when one takes a movement like flyes to use up some energy before a bench press...i also think this is probably one of the least efficient training techniques out there. it uses ATP without forcing your muscles to work with any real weight

I'm not sure about your definition of pre exhaustion but I'll take your word for it. All these 'techniques' smack of overthinking stuff anyway.

And the widowmaker is called so for a reason - you have to have the nutjob mentality to get it done. What's all this nonsense about 'if you have more in you' ? If you haven't got enough in you to do 17-18 (at which point your eyes can only see red, you're foaming at the mouth, and you start asking God to be merciful) then the windowmaker style is not for you, or you're using too much weight, or your form sucks. Simple as that!

If you're going to chicken out after the 10th rep then why bother? D'you want your quads to grow or not?

I do agree about being mentally prepared though - you can't just go into half-heartedly.

Note that this is only for people who're interested in serious quad development, people who aren't that bothered can get away with straight sets for squats.

(Sorry for being blunt, but I'm not having the DC widowmaker bashed like this. "If you have it in you" my arse.. it's NOT for casual trainees.)

 

[Gus]

Don't go so deep, your upper leg should be parallel to the floor and that's as deep as you should go. Once you start adding weight, if you keep going so deep you're going to have SERIOUS knee problems.

 

[MrFitness880]

I'm not sure about your definition of pre exhaustion but I'll take your word for it. All these 'techniques' smack of overthinking stuff anyway.

And the widowmaker is called so for a reason - you have to have the nutjob mentality to get it done. What's all this nonsense about 'if you have more in you' ? If you haven't got enough in you to do 17-18 (at which point your eyes can only see red, you're foaming at the mouth, and you start asking God to be merciful) then the windowmaker style is not for you, or you're using too much weight, or your form sucks. Simple as that!

If you're going to chicken out after the 10th rep then why bother? D'you want your quads to grow or not?

I do agree about being mentally prepared though - you can't just go into half-heartedly.

Note that this is only for people who're interested in serious quad development, people who aren't that bothered can get away with straight sets for squats.

(Sorry for being blunt, but I'm not having the DC widowmaker bashed like this. "If you have it in you" my arse.. it's NOT for casual trainees.)

Im confident in my definition but i can clarify if needed

Especially w/ a set of something like 20 rep squats, it can be hard to judge where you are going to fall in the rep range w/ a specific weight. this is even more true for someone with no experience with them. my point was simply do not stop at 20 simply because youve reached 20.

I think this was a pretty plain explanation, basic thought process hardly overthinking. if i suggested he develop a complex method of when to use a pad...that might be over thinking.

you sound very hardcore and there is a lot of brash rhetoric...and the go hard or go home philosiphy does have its place...but there isnt much thought or information put into your post. DC did not come up w/ the 20 rep squat though he does use it well.

GGTFB: what kind of training method are you using...just out of curiosity.

You will get a ton of opinoins on depth of squatting. Personally I think heavy weights should be at parallel, but going deep on lighter sets (10 to 12) is generally ok. this is a longwinded way of saying i pretty much agree w/ dereikopf.

 

[Warboss Alex]

If you think there isn't much thought in my posts then technically you could be right - I always speak from experience and what has to be seen to work for not just me, but people around. You're 19 according to your profile, so I've been training much longer than you have most likely and so have more experience in the field on which to fall back on, and THAT my friend, is what all my posts are based on. I'm not out to offend or insult anybody - although I'd like to know how my post is lacking information as such? I answered the boy's questions to the best of my knowledge, what did I miss?

What I meant by pre-exhaustion etc, was that they're a little too 'scientific' and unnecessary, in my opinion. That's what I meant by overthinking.

As for the where you're going to fail - if you attempt a widowmaker (in the DC style), failure is not an option you consider. If you can do more than 20 reps then you're not training hard enough. Myself I train with a weight for my widowmakers (and I'm not suggesting I get the weight right everytime, sometimes I've aimed too low and find the set a little more straightforward than usual, sometimes it's too high but I know that by about the sixth or seventh rep), but up to the first ten I'm having to really work for them, after that it starts to really hurt, two or three more and I'm closing in on the 15 mark, then I started praying, swearing, whatever - my face is beetroot red and contorted horribly by rep 16 - many times I've actually begged God to get me up to 18 and somehow I've made it to 20 - as a result of this, my quads became and remain my best bodypart.

I first heard of widowmakers through DC training - I don't know if he coined the phrase/technique and as such I apologise and stand corrected if I implied that, because it wasn't intentional.

Depth of squats: parallel or a little below is quite sufficient in my opinion, anymore and there's a risk of injury as well.

 

[EFFORT]

I'm honestly no expert when it comes to the 20 rep squat, its been around way before i was born. But what i do know is it results in growth throughout the whole body for people that do it.

Squats stimulate a huge portion of your muscles, this results in your body sending out more testosterone which increases growth throughout the whole body. The 20rep set wouldn't carry the same effect with other exercises that don't stimulate the majority of your muscles


If you plan on doing the 20 rep squat start with a weight that you could get 30-50 with. If you just jump into the 20rep squat like many of the descriptions of it say you'll probably hurt yourself and make no progress.

So start light then add 5-10lbs each week

 

[MetalFortress]

Originally posted by derEikopf
Don't go so deep, your upper leg should be parallel to the floor and that's as deep as you should go. Once you start adding weight, if you keep going so deep you're going to have SERIOUS knee problems.

Oh, shut up. If you don't go ass to grass, you are a plain wuss, and it messes up your knees, YOUR FORM SUCKS.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Originally posted by MetalFortress
Oh, shut up. If you don't go ass to grass, you are a plain wuss, and it messes up your knees, YOUR FORM SUCKS.

Heh I hate disagreeing with you because it turns into a 4 page thread, but he is right. Form is very important in doing squats, I agree with you. However, once you squat high, ass to grass puts *a lot* of pressure on your knee joints bro. You can do ass to grass in the 100s, 200s, and early 300 poundages, but once you go over 8-plates or more, the chance of injury is very, very high.

I know several people who used to do ass to grass (with very very good form mind you) that got injured this way. While you do make great gains with ass to grass (I used to do it when I first started squatting, until I moved up in weight and started having joint pains and was popping glucosamine like crazy), sooner or later you will have to settle for pararell ones.

It's one of those exercises like behind the neck millitary press, or behind the neck pullups. when you first start doing it, you make good gains off it, but once you go high up in weight, it's very dangerous.

Each to his own. I dont see the point of calling someone a wuss because they don't wanna get injured. The goal of working out is to be stronger, have a nicer body, sure, but more importantly - health.

 

[Double]

some very retarded comments here

fortunately MindOverMatter helped you kiddys getting a clue. there are guys who train weak, normal, hard, and superhardcore stupid with lots of injuries. so your knee joints hurt badly. but you are a real man so you doing heavy ATTG squats and after this supersquats. now you not only have 2weeks of exercise induced headache but also you cant lift for some weeks because your knees are ****ed. but so what?! it was worth it. because you are the man and can tell people in the forum that they are *****s for not being so stupid to risk an injury. retarded.

 

[GodsGiftToFatBirds]

Right, thanks for the replies

Time for a couple of responses to what you guys have posted:

To Mr Fitness: you're asking about my training methods - I'm not sure if you're just asking what i do on squats or what methods i use overall.
In terms of squats, well, i only tried them for the first time the other day as mentioned in my first post, so haven't developed a routine for them yet. I just tested the water with them really, and built the weight up to doing 85kg (about 190lb) ass to grass but felt i needed to get some answers to these questions before i took it any further.
In terms of my overall routine, i use a 4 day split, training every 2nd day: Day 1 - Triceps & Calves
Day 2 - Biceps & Thighs (so squats will come in here)
Day 3 - Chest & Calves
Day 4 - Back & Shoulders
I generally use straight sets, starting with say 3 x 5 or 6 on a particular weight, then increasing the reps session by session before increasing the weight when i'm able to do 3 x 8.

General consensus on how low to go seems to be that its safe to go ass to grass only upto a certain amount of weight - according to Mind Over Matter, my current level of weight should be safe enough, right?
I have to say i'm quite wary of the risk of damaging my knees, simply because my training's primarily for football (soccer) and so my attitude isn't just 'so what?' if i've injured my knees and can't train or play for weeks.
I'm pretty dedicated with my training though, and am williing to push myself as hard as i can do safely.

I answered all these questions. Were the answers not to your liking?

Haha, no mate! All you said was don't bother with lunges!

 

[Not Quite There]

i'm thinking about starting squats, but the pressure on the knees is worrying me, my knees are already ****ed as it is ( 4 screws in my left one) so i don't want to make it any worse.

are squats worth bothering with? are they pretty bad on the knees no matter how low you go?

 

[MrFitness880]

honestly overall my joints arent that great, and ive never had a problem. if you keep good form you should probably be alright. unfortunately its hard to say unless you try. just make sure you have good form but yea squats are great. if they do cause problems leg presses are still a good alternative

 

[semag]

Haha, no mate! All you said was don't bother with lunges!

Hey GGTFB.... go read your other thread again. Alpine DID answer every question you asked, his answers were written inside the quote section.

 

[GodsGiftToFatBirds]

Alpine DID answer every question you asked, his answers were written inside the quote section.

Lol, yeh, my apologies to Alpine, i completely missed them at the first time of reading.

Anyway, its still good to get a few peoples' different opinions on the questions.

 

[Heizen]

ATG squats do put alot of stress on your knees, only because the amount of leverage you get isn't as great with parrallel and people have a tendency to try to bounce it up at the bottom without have a proper change of direction. That messes with your joint like none other.

The thing is that parrallel for most people is 4 inches above it. Parrallel is much lower than people think, and moving more weight with partial reps is the WORST thing you can do for your knees.

Not quite there:There is no substitute for squats as far as leg growth go. Squats for to legs what deads are to the back.