Greetings to everyone, I just got reminded again about some information that I'd heard about but didn't take as seriously when I was in the U.S. and it has to do with the fact that apparently, when we take in protein shakes, eat a lot of protein bars, etc. it goes to our liver and that is said to be dangerous. In the U.S. I used to drink protein shakes with as much as 50 grams of protein. Recently at the gym I go to here in my home country, one of the trainers has started a business where he orders whey protein in containers from Canada. I just bought one today, one of the extreme muscle weight gainer whey protein things in powdery form. But the thought of the damage to one's liver in the long run continues to bother me. Could it mean therefore that when all is said and done, natural foods such as egg whites, Tuna, fish and chicken are the best bet than all these shakes and bars some of us keep taking on a frequent basis? How much whey protein consumption would be considered too much for those of us who work out? Would a glass of whey protein a day be too much and dangerous for the liver?
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Protein Shakes, Protein Bars and Liver Damage
- Thread starter Frank2500
- Start date
Fuglydude
Master Don Juan
Gotta agree with Espi about food being a better choice for protein intake. However, with our busy lives, protein supplements make it very convenient to take in enough protein.
The idea that high protein intake causes liver and kidney damage stems from the fact that ammonia is a by-product of amino acid metabolism. Excess amino acids are converted to other substrates for use in the body. Things like alpha-ketoglutatrate, pyruvate, oxaloacetate, etc are produced from excess amino acids. This hepatic metabolism of excess amino acids takes energy as well, which contributes to the thermic effect of protein.
Ammonia, which is a byproduct of amino acid metabolism, is very acutely toxic to life as we know it. In a normal healthy liver ammonia is converted to urea in a metabolic pathway know as the urea cycle. The urea is then excreted out when we take a leak. Problems arise when we have sick livers/kidneys that are unable to adequately serve their metabolic roles, that is, they cannot convert ammonia to urea in adequately, and cannot clear the urea. Hyperammonemia (high blood ammonia) and uremia (high blood urea/nitrogenous compounds) can both be fatal. However, in healthy individuals w/ optimally functioning organs this isn't a problem as our organs can keep form urea and excrete it.
I've talked to one of the dudes I work with about this. He's an ICU attending physician who's also a hepatobiliary specialist. He basically said the same thing as what I've written above, that its not anything we gotta worry about, providing that we have healthy organs and we are eating adequate amounts of other nutrients in our diet. In the end he said, a very high protein intake can just give you expensive urine.
The idea that high protein intake causes liver and kidney damage stems from the fact that ammonia is a by-product of amino acid metabolism. Excess amino acids are converted to other substrates for use in the body. Things like alpha-ketoglutatrate, pyruvate, oxaloacetate, etc are produced from excess amino acids. This hepatic metabolism of excess amino acids takes energy as well, which contributes to the thermic effect of protein.
Ammonia, which is a byproduct of amino acid metabolism, is very acutely toxic to life as we know it. In a normal healthy liver ammonia is converted to urea in a metabolic pathway know as the urea cycle. The urea is then excreted out when we take a leak. Problems arise when we have sick livers/kidneys that are unable to adequately serve their metabolic roles, that is, they cannot convert ammonia to urea in adequately, and cannot clear the urea. Hyperammonemia (high blood ammonia) and uremia (high blood urea/nitrogenous compounds) can both be fatal. However, in healthy individuals w/ optimally functioning organs this isn't a problem as our organs can keep form urea and excrete it.
I've talked to one of the dudes I work with about this. He's an ICU attending physician who's also a hepatobiliary specialist. He basically said the same thing as what I've written above, that its not anything we gotta worry about, providing that we have healthy organs and we are eating adequate amounts of other nutrients in our diet. In the end he said, a very high protein intake can just give you expensive urine.
Bible_Belt
Master Don Juan
A friend of mine works in kidney dialysis, and he has had to put college football players on dialysis because they were idiots and decided to eat an entire jug of protein powder at once. Thankfully, their kidneys did eventually recover. But too much of anything can hurt anyone, even if you're otherwise very healthy and whatever substance you ingest is perfectly fine in reasonable doses.
Not the liver. Large amounts of protein damage the kidneys, rather the very fine structures inside the kidneys which allow them to function and filter the substances from your body. Large amounts of protein will overwhelm and cause damage.
But what is a large amount of protein? Like Bible Belt mentioned a large tub of protein will do it. Now that is A LOT of protein (especially in concentrated powder form) and it takes a special kind of stupid to ingest that much.
Also if you have diabetes or only one kidney, you should be watching your protein intake if it reaches significant amounts like you would find on the Atkins diet. For a reasonable healthy person this shouldn't be an issue.
For more information, ask Fuglydude the local medical expert. His advice is for your information and shouldn't be considered official medical advice, neither should the information on this forum be considered official medical advice. If you have medical concerns, consult your doctor.
But what is a large amount of protein? Like Bible Belt mentioned a large tub of protein will do it. Now that is A LOT of protein (especially in concentrated powder form) and it takes a special kind of stupid to ingest that much.
Also if you have diabetes or only one kidney, you should be watching your protein intake if it reaches significant amounts like you would find on the Atkins diet. For a reasonable healthy person this shouldn't be an issue.
For more information, ask Fuglydude the local medical expert. His advice is for your information and shouldn't be considered official medical advice, neither should the information on this forum be considered official medical advice. If you have medical concerns, consult your doctor.
What happens, IN HER MIND, is that she comes to see you as WORTHLESS simply because she hasn't had to INVEST anything in you in order to get you or to keep you.
You were an interesting diversion while she had nothing else to do. But now that someone a little more valuable has come along, someone who expects her to treat him very well, she'll have no problem at all dropping you or demoting you to lowly "friendship" status.
Quote taken from The SoSuave Guide to Women and Dating, which you can read for FREE.
Amino acids are molecules. These molecules when combined form chains of molecules which turn into proteins. Proteins are basically compact chains of amino acids all folded up in a fancy package.
The human body needs 23 essential amino acids. It actually uses more than 23 amino acids but the rest the body can make by itself using the 23 basic ones and then applying some complex chemical reactions to synthesize everything else. I'm not sure what the ratios are for the individual 23, but I do know that animal proteins are the best source and contain almost all the amino acids you need in the right amounts. You can do with plant based sources like soy and beans and whatnot. If you can combine these ingredients you can get very close to the right levels of amino acids found in animal proteins but it's not easy.
Your protein powder better damn well have amino acids in it, otherwise it ain't protein powder.
The human body needs 23 essential amino acids. It actually uses more than 23 amino acids but the rest the body can make by itself using the 23 basic ones and then applying some complex chemical reactions to synthesize everything else. I'm not sure what the ratios are for the individual 23, but I do know that animal proteins are the best source and contain almost all the amino acids you need in the right amounts. You can do with plant based sources like soy and beans and whatnot. If you can combine these ingredients you can get very close to the right levels of amino acids found in animal proteins but it's not easy.
Your protein powder better damn well have amino acids in it, otherwise it ain't protein powder.
Re:
I thank you all so much again for your responses. Part of the reason why I miss the U.S. as well is because the mentalities in this part of the world are so different and even with regards to fitness, a lot of folks here aren't too sure what it is they are doing. A personal trainer at the gym I go to here has a business in which he orders protein powder from Europe. Since that's so rare in most African countries, I bought a container of Muscle Mass Weight Gainer from him but I realized the hard way that I got the wrong kind of protein. I used to have a perfectly flat stomach-in fact it used to sink in so well-but ever since I started taking that particular protein powder, I realized it makes me feel bloated and all of a sudden it's like the size of my stomach has increased significantly. Good enough I've only been taking it so far for three days. I've decided to stop taking it and do some cardio, drink some green tea, take a bit of lime, eat a lot more yogurt, etc. until hopefully my stomach comes back to normal. I really hope it does.
I thank you all so much again for your responses. Part of the reason why I miss the U.S. as well is because the mentalities in this part of the world are so different and even with regards to fitness, a lot of folks here aren't too sure what it is they are doing. A personal trainer at the gym I go to here has a business in which he orders protein powder from Europe. Since that's so rare in most African countries, I bought a container of Muscle Mass Weight Gainer from him but I realized the hard way that I got the wrong kind of protein. I used to have a perfectly flat stomach-in fact it used to sink in so well-but ever since I started taking that particular protein powder, I realized it makes me feel bloated and all of a sudden it's like the size of my stomach has increased significantly. Good enough I've only been taking it so far for three days. I've decided to stop taking it and do some cardio, drink some green tea, take a bit of lime, eat a lot more yogurt, etc. until hopefully my stomach comes back to normal. I really hope it does.
It could be 3 cases:Frank2500 said:
1) What you got its not protein but as you wrote a weight gainer with much more stuff in it, carbs fat or something your stomach cannot process.
You cannot assimilate some component of that so your stomach gets big and full because of the effort.
2)You simply ate too much of that like twice the necessary amount.
3)That stuff is expired.
It's hard for anything to permanently grow your stomach in only 3 days, otherwise people would be injecting it into their muscles or their penises.
Fuglydude
Master Don Juan
To the best of my knowledge transiently elevated BUN (blood urea nitrogen) will not cause direct and measurable renal damage at the glomerulus (the "filter" part of the kidney) or cause ATN (acute tubular necrosis). There is no documented evidence to show that people with healthy renal function will have issues w/ BUN/Cr clearance. As you mentioned those w/ sub-par renal function and pre-existing renal disease should be on a special diet and watch their intake of protein, among other things.Alle_Gory said:
The common instance of high serum protein causing renal injury would in a condition called rhabdomyolysis. We see this a lot with traumas, where there is large scale muscle damage and myoglobin, a protein that's important for intra-myocyte oxygen transfer, leaks into the blood. Myoglobin, well actually the iron-containing poryphorin part of the assembly, is toxic to the kidneys, and can cause ARF (acute renal failure).
As far as the AA's (amino acids) go, there's actually only like 21 or 22 common ones that are used in "higher animals" for making proteins. As Allegory said, weird ass aminos can be mostly be biosynthesized by the body. Out of the 20 or so commonly occuring AAs' I think there's like 10 or 11 that are termed essential. That basically means that we dont' have the metabolic machinery to make em. They gotta be consumed w/ our diets. There's also a few that are termed "conditionally essential"... AA's like glutamine and arginine. These are essential in certain situations.
Most MD's know very little about athletic nutrition... Your average family doc spent a few hours in med school learning about nutrition. Unless they're into nutritional stuff themselves or have a nutrition/physical education back ground its best to go to figure out a diet that works for you and consult someone who's certified in diet stuff... such as a masters trained RD w/ an interest in human performance nutrition/ergogenic aids.
Frank your stomach "grew" likely because of bloat from digesting the protein. Your guts probably didn't like something in it. I've had this happen plenty of times. You just need to find a product that your body agrees with.
Re:
@Strelok: I hear you, bro. Thanks for sharing your perspective with me. Either way I'm never gonna use that stuff any longer. I just hope my stomach could get back to its normal size because that's something I always used to be complemented on by guys who tend to drink a lot of alcohol and who have beer bellies, etc. Now all of a sudden it's almost as if my stomach is starting to look like theirs. It looks even bigger after I eat or drink a lot of water. I'm gonna hit the bike real hard this evening and burn very many calories. I won't stop until I see significant changes.
@Strelok: I hear you, bro. Thanks for sharing your perspective with me. Either way I'm never gonna use that stuff any longer. I just hope my stomach could get back to its normal size because that's something I always used to be complemented on by guys who tend to drink a lot of alcohol and who have beer bellies, etc. Now all of a sudden it's almost as if my stomach is starting to look like theirs. It looks even bigger after I eat or drink a lot of water. I'm gonna hit the bike real hard this evening and burn very many calories. I won't stop until I see significant changes.
Fuglydude
Master Don Juan
I would be interested in taking a look at any evidence you find on this... however, I'm not aware if any exists. Why would urea cause renal issues? What's your proposed mechanism of injury to nephrons? There are lots of drugs that are nephrotoxic, things like aminoglycoside ABX (antibiotics), NSAIDs, radiocontrast dye, etc... however, these are actually nephrotoxic because they are harmful to certain parts of the nephron. Urea is a small, highly water soluble molecule. It is filtered easily and is also reabsorbed in the convoluted tubules of the nephron.Alle_Gory said:
You could make the case for hepatic damage caused by excess ammonia production during AA metabolism and having the urea cycle not be able to keep up w/ urea production in the face of extremely high ammonia production, but I'm unaware of any directly nephrotoxic effects of urea.
If someone downed an entire tub of protein, they'd likely get diarrhea pretty bad as the body can only absorb so much protein at once. The rest would go thru the GI tract and lead to some, um, "disturbances"! Biblebelt's account of this friend in dialysis is not really evidence as its word of mouth... not exactly peer reviawable... furthermore, we are unaware of any pre-existing renal condition that the football player may have had.
Re: Trying to Remain Optimistic
Well, I'm hopeful that my stomach size would return to normal. I got on the stationary bike yesterday evening and paddled as hard as I could and burned 120 calories in the process. This morning I did a very light ride and burned just 50. For the most part my stomach is starting to look like it's quite gotten back to normal but it's like once I eat and drink water, it gets back to that funny size again. I hope now that I've stopped taking that muscle and weight gainer thing it would go away for good.
Well, I'm hopeful that my stomach size would return to normal. I got on the stationary bike yesterday evening and paddled as hard as I could and burned 120 calories in the process. This morning I did a very light ride and burned just 50. For the most part my stomach is starting to look like it's quite gotten back to normal but it's like once I eat and drink water, it gets back to that funny size again. I hope now that I've stopped taking that muscle and weight gainer thing it would go away for good.