Progress Question

[mrRuckus]

The weights are made up (though they are relative) but the reps are pretty much real.


Is this respectable progress on squats? Some weeks is it even progress?
Week 1 165x15 (pounds)
Week 2 175x16
Week 3 180x9
Week 4 181x15
Week 5 185.5x11
Week 6 185.5x13
Week 7 186x11
Week 8 186x12
Week 9 187x13
Week 10 190x8


If i add weight the reps just DROP. And it's not just an off day. Is it normal for the reps to drop that far just adding a little bit of weight?

The current goal is really a set of 15 straight up... no rest pausing or completely busting my ass and hitting 15 no matter what (like in a widowmaker). I add weight sometimes even though i haven't hit 15 just because i'm scared that i'll do even less reps than last time and at least i can console myself that i had more weight even if it's miniscule. Sometimes the only reason why i have the 1 rep increase is because i just cheat the hell out of the last couple reps just to say i beat the number. I mean seriously i add half a pound and it takes me 3 weeks (weeks 7-9) to get back to the same number of reps? Then 3 more lbs suddenly crushes me under the weight?! I have this same thing going on deadlifts where i was shooting up for a while then started just losing a LOT of reps. Like 350x11 to 350x4 to 350x3 type losses (goal is 8 reps). A deload week doesn't help. It's really pretty annoying because every other lift (including hamstring lifts and leg presses continue up all the time.)

I kind of expect this to resolve itself since i'm bumping up my calories and stopping my goal of focusing on fat loss, but still... I'm 35 lbs lighter than i was and my squat is WORSE than 9 months ago. At least in the 1-5r range.



Oh and since i mentioned it.. what's a good way to transition from losing fat to gaining mass/strength while maintaining fat level for the most part? I was doing about 2300 calories on lifting days and 2000 on non-lifting. Is there some sort of transition period or should i just say to hell with it and bump it straight up to 3000 or even more?

Maybe BWx18 for calories and 2xBW for protein and be done with it?


the more i look at that the more i think it's just dandy progress given the no caloric excess and the higher reps.. i should just delete this.

 

[Warboss Alex]

the more i look at that the more i think it's just dandy progress given the no caloric excess and the higher reps.. i should just delete this.

you said it yourself. in 10 weeks on 2k calories a day you can't expect much progress (especially at that rep range).. what you got there (especially if the true weights are higher than that) is great - how much did you expect to progress on such low cals and in 10 weeks?

you were lucky to make that sort of progress at all - I would not recommend widowmaker style squats when dieting, or even for such a long period of time.

Natural guys tend to stall on the 20 rep squat in about 2 months.. your progress slowed after 6 weeks or thereabouts, which at your dieting level is PERFECTLY normal. Many people don't realise the overall strain on the body and the CNS the high rep squats are.. it is tremendous. couple that with dieting fairly strictly (2k calories is imo too aggressive for a heavy trainer) and even 2.5lbs a week increase (which is roughly what you got) is BRILLIANT.

I know how much you deadlift and if your squat is equivalently good, I'd go 3 on, 1 off with the high rep squats. (e.g. do them for three weeks then don't do them the next week)

Honestly dude, I think you were expecting miracles.. your progress is absolutely fine. You deserve kudos for actually making any progress at all in the circumstances.

 

[BluEyes]

Before warboss said you were dieting(which is most likely the cause), I was going to suggest that it might be mental game.

If you're hitting 15 reps of X weight, then 15 reps of X + 1.5lbs shouldn't cause your reps to drop by more than one or two, or three if its a plateau.

But if you're dieting down, then don't expect to make leaps and bounds with your numbers.

 

[BluEyes]

And if you're doing half reps or cheating to hit the numbers/weight, then it sounds like you have no business lifting whatever weight it is you're trying to.

If it's your first time dieting down, then relax... It's normal to easily drop 25-75lbs off the bar in the dieting weeks. When you start eating more, your weights will shoot up again.

 

[stronglifts]

Why do you want to do 15 reps mrRuckus?

If you want to get better at 15reps, do more 15 reps. You should be able to add 5lbs every week, doing a 2 steps forward, 1 step back approach.

 

[mrRuckus]

I'm not doing widowmaker style. They're straight up 15 rep sets. Nothing like a widowmaker doing my 10RM for 20. It's my 15RM for 15. And no i'm not anal about it being fifteen or bust but anywhere in that area is good.

I think the post was more to organize my thoughts "out loud." That's a lot of how my thinking works. I throw it down on paper and by the time i'm done writing it i've figured it out

My main confusion is why I have sudden drops in performance just adding a little bit of weight. I understand losing a few reps but SEVEN because i add a couple lbs? But even on the same day i'll do leg press for 20 and add 5 lbs EVERY WEEK. Is there a fundamental weakness in there that would cause squats and deadlifts to fall off while similar movements always go up?

The 'cheating' part comes into play in say i'm going from 185x13 to 185x14. The first 12 reps will be fine and then the last two i'll end up cheating a bit (pretty much turn it into a pseudo good morning). I've gotten myself away from it, but to say i shouldn't be doing that weight is off base because if i got 13 on it is it really that much to expect i'd get 14 the next time? What annoys me is that i go into fearing that i'll do WORSE than last time and for all i know it becomes self fulfilling.

I think i just suck at squats in general for whatever reason but kick ass on deadlifts. Most people's numbers in my range i see are lower in deadlifts than me and higher in squats. Then there are the weirdos who deadlift and squat the same.

Anyway pretty soon i'm going back to some lower rep stuff and i'm upping the calories. I really can't wait cause i feel like a small little turd lifting girlie weights and i want back the feeling of being a monster and eating like a man.

how much did you expect to progress on such low cals and in 10 weeks?

That's pretty much my point. I have no idea what to expect so i asked. I guess i sort of want to justify the last few months of lifting to myself. Please don't hit me.

My flat bench and squat have always been my worst even when i was eating a lot. I have no idea what's up with them. It just seems weird to me that i can leg press increasing numbers indefinitely or INCLINE bench progress week after week but have to fight for every quarter lb on bench or squat and hope that i don't regress.

The other question i had in my mind was that i was doing a lot of 3RM work on bench and that was increasing dandy. Then i switch to 6 rep work and that goes no where. I suppose 3 rep is mostly neural and 6 rep depends more on actual muscle growth and calories to gain strength? It really screws with my head to see my 1RM shoot up while my 5-6RM is less than it used to be.. heh.

I talked to a friend of mine i hadn't seen in a number of months yesterday in the gym and he said he had someone tell him that i was a lot bigger than i used to be. This is news to me since all my measurements are down. That's pretty cool that i can lose all that fat off my arms and have smaller arms and legs and still have people think i'm bigger Hurray for optical illusions.

This is really all moot since i'm upping calories anyway. I just don't want to feel like i wasted even more time.

couple that with dieting fairly strictly (2k calories is imo too aggressive for a heavy trainer) and even 2.5lbs a week increase (which is roughly what you got) is BRILLIANT.
.

My diet is spot on and i have great will power. I don't know how you can say it's too aggressive and at the same time say it's brilliant i got those increases. My diet was actually higher calorie than that when i first started my recomp but even with morning cardio 5-6x a week i wasn't losing fat at first so 50g of carbs were stripped from each day and then the fat started coming off. I think i had what i needed pretty exact.

Losing a lot of fat and making strength gains at the same time i thought was exactly what you wanted .

I am the freakin proof it can be done. I should put up before/after pics, which i'd do but all the hyenas eat you alive no matter how awesome you look or performed.

I'm sitting at 9-10% bf now and am dieing to tear up the gym again.

 

[mrRuckus]

Why do you want to do 15 reps mrRuckus?

To be different for a while. It's really just been a break from a mostly 3-5 rep range in everything. I've been in that range so long it was just time to break out for a little and have even been doing some exercises i've never done before like reverse grip curls and skullcrushers and rest the joints and whatever else comes out of being a low rep wh0re for years on end. Yeah i never did skullcrushers before. And considering the annoyance to my elbows i don't think i'll do them again.

I'm mostly operating under the goal of getting stronger every time i lift in any lift i do and i'll end up where i want to be.

If you want to get better at 15reps, do more 15 reps.

What are you getting at here?

 

[Warboss Alex]

I understand losing a few reps but SEVEN because i add a couple lbs? But even on the same day i'll do leg press for 20 and add 5 lbs EVERY WEEK.

Squats and leg press are nowhere near the same movement my friend..

If you think your squat is weak, or you're stalling on squats, you can try front or box squats for a while to get your squat moving again.

And yes, even a tiny bit of weight can make a difference - straw that broke the camel's back, and all that. Don't be surprised.

Leg press and incline bench are not comparable to squats and full bench.. the former are not fullbody moves whereas the last two are. totally different animals. For the flat bench, everything is involved, from quads to traps. The form must be perfect for you to progress.

6RM and 1RM are also nowhere near comparable.. again totally different animals. 1RM is very much neural as you say, and will not be much affected by dieting, but 6RM requires endurance, glycogen, more motor unit recruitment and flatout energy.. all of which typically suffer on diets, especially as low cal as yours.

You didn't waste any time mate.. you did got stronger while losing a lot of fat, and may have added some lean mass (just at 2k cals you shouldn't expect much). Now you can maintain that bodyfat and continue to gain slowly but surely. Wasted time would have been your numbers to have stayed the same and to have lost as much muscle as fat..

Yes, losing fat and gaining strength is EXACTLY what everyone should be doing more or less, but it does require patience and precision, and that's why I say it's brilliant you're able to achieve this on such an aggressive diet (2k cals is low for pretty much any natural male trainer) - it wasn't criticism at all. I meant it in a good way. It is a testament to the soundness of your routine, your diet and your determination that you did make gains..

At 9-10% you could probably knock than down to 8% by increasing your lean mass considerably. You also know how many carbs roughly you need to make strength gains, so up your calories through proteins and fats now to help keep you lean.

Again, I was in no way criticising.. you deserve MUCH kudos for your efforts MrR.

 

[mrRuckus]

At 9-10% you could probably knock than down to 8% by increasing your lean mass considerably. You also know how many carbs roughly you need to make strength gains, so up your calories through proteins and fats now to help keep you lean.

Again, I was in no way criticising.. you deserve MUCH kudos for your efforts MrR.

I really think i need to up carbs some. I've been eating next to none except post workout for a long time with no carb up days. I mean, the rather occasional cheat meal sure (can't really pass up an invite for mexican, can i?), but no planned carb up days.

You know what's funny? I started to eat more carbs (fruit) and upped my calories and i gained 8-9 lbs in a week. Yeah, water and glycogen i presume. Do you know how delicious a pre-workout apple is?! And raisins afterwards!!

I haven't much settled on what exactly i want the new diet to be but we'll see how my progress (str and fat) goes with a bit more carbs and fat. Even if i don't need the carbs i'd like to be able to eat SOME even though a lot of my taste for carbs is gone. I can't go forever hatin on the dinner rolls I'm not sure exactly the number of kcals to get up to either but now i'm getting about 2800.. perhaps will up it more. Actually, likely will but wanted to ease into it.

I don't think my body is so against carbs in general. I remember before i knew sh1t about lifting i took off 30 lbs in a summer while consisting mostly on cereal, peanut butter sandwiches, tuna, chinese buffet, and drinking 2 nights a week. I got to lower bf than i am now. Carbs can't be that scary to me. Maybe i'll start the day with a pro/carb meal and the rest pro/fat except pwo.

thanks for your words

 

[stronglifts]

To be different for a while. It's really just been a break from a mostly 3-5 rep range in everything. I've been in that range so long it was just time to break out for a little and have even been doing some exercises i've never done before like reverse grip curls and skullcrushers and rest the joints and whatever else comes out of being a low rep wh0re for years on end. Yeah i never did skullcrushers before. And considering the annoyance to my elbows i don't think i'll do them again.

I'm mostly operating under the goal of getting stronger every time i lift in any lift i do and i'll end up where i want to be.

I see. I've been doing 1-3-5 rep range for years also, but recently started doing more strength-endurance (breathing sets of 10/20 on power cleans/front squats/deadlifts). I find them mentally challenging.

What I've done for the power clean during the last weeks:
-week 1: 20x70kg
-week 2: 10x75kg
-week 3: 2x10 x 80kg

The 20x80kg is something that would have happened last week or this week. But I'm doing smolov too, not easy to combine both.

So what I meant. Put as a goal to get 15 reps with x weight. One thing I learned is to be less "greedy". Better to only progress with 5lbs rather than doing big jump & stalling/risking injury. Your example:

Week 1 165x15
Week 2 175x16 => 170x15 progress
Week 3 180x9 => 175x15 progress
Week 4 181x15 => 180x15 progress
Week 5 185.5x11 => 185x15 progress
Week 6 185.5x13 => 190x15 progress
Week 7 186x11 => 195 x 15 progress
Week 8 186x12 => 200 x 10,10 (15 too much, more total reps, still progress)
Week 9 187x13 => 200 x 15
Week 10 190x8 => 200 x 20

etc.

 

[Omen]

I use to do high rep squats, and really trained hard at those at one point where I maxed at 225lbs for 20 reps, and I weighed 125lbs. I know, crazy, but I could just do it. Felt like I wanted to hurl and saw stars, but my strength went through the roof.

And mrRuckus.... Ahhh the wonder of carbs?

I swear, no one on here preaches carbs to the extent I do. lol.

I will be the black sheep, and when everyone preaches 2g/lb protein, i'll be preaching CARBS BABY.

I'll tell you right now its my carbs that get me where I am, and NOT the protein. While I take it, I dont concentrate on it like I do carbs.

I'm not sure what you eat gram wise, but if its not much, you HAVE to get it up there more.

 

[mrRuckus]

I swear, no one on here preaches carbs to the extent I do. lol.

'Cause they're not all that amazing.

 

[Omen]

'Cause they're not all that amazing.

I really think i need to up carbs some. I've been eating next to none except post workout for a long time with no carb up days. I mean, the rather occasional cheat meal sure (can't really pass up an invite for mexican, can i?), but no planned carb up days.

Hmmm...eating next to none.

Here is my problem. You seem to think what I say on protein and carbs is always wrong. But I have yet to see you prove anything and these two subjects. I'm not mudslinging here, but when you say the're not all that amazing for one, then for two you say you eat next to none, makes me believe you have a lot of learning to do in this area. You have obviously never studies exercise metabolism for one on carbs, and for two, like my protein info, you seem to have NOTHING to show for it besides what RUMOR has said about 2g.

What happens, is people get this mindset that what ever they hear from someone, or from a magazine must be true. What, and you think the magazines are TOTALLY correct? Or muscle head Todd who said 2g is what he takes made him the biggest ever?

So here is my question to you, since you like to debate me, which is fine.

Why are carbs not all that amazing?

Take some time to get your answer, cause i'll come back with a page or more as to why they are.

And here is my thing. What I hate is posting about that stuff when people should KNOW THIS, or take the time to learn it. Saying carbs aren't amazing when talking about human performance, is pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

If you said that in a class related to this stuff, your professor would wonder what you're even doing in a program related to this type of study.

If carbs aren't amazing when it comes to human performance, you better take up art or something.

 

[mrRuckus]

I have no reason to prove anything about carbs or protein and have no desire to prove anything. What the hell is the point? There are a zillion threads and articles everywhere going both ways on everything and the last thing I desire is to argue in either direction. It's fvcking POINTLESS, but if it makes you feel important to spout off that you know blood's saturation point for cholesterol or whatever overly complicated stuff with big words you want to get into today go right on ahead.

I ate low carbs while losing 35 lbs since march/april going from 16-17% bf to 9% bf while increasing strength all around. Where exactly did I go wrong? Why do people say i look bigger if i weigh less? Since I'm clueless, was this just a freak accident? If i ate lots of carbs instead of fats would i have lost fat faster and gained more strength? If so, really? For everyone? I'd expect the difference to be DRASTIC if carbs are amazing. Would it have prevented the 2 months where i couldn't deadlift or squat because i blew out my knee playing softball? Or maybe prevented the damage that those handful of drunk nights caused?

You have a weird definition of amazing. They're just carbs. That's it. What makes them anymore amazing then protein or fat? Everything can't be amazing. While we're at it, oxygen is amazing! Why, without it we could lift at all! It's amazing! Maybe your "amazing" definition is that of infomercials where "holy sh1t! this soap removes grease!!" is amazing even though we've had soap for centuries.

I've never read a fitness/muscle magazine in my life. Who is todd? I think the last magazine i read was nintendo power in 1993. I think it was the one with which potions to use where to get to the super mario brothers 2 warp zones.

I didn't say anything you said about carbs is wrong other than they're not amazing.

And hell, I even just said i'm going to eat more carbs now that i'm shifting my focus away from fat loss. What exactly is it that you want? Did you just pick and choose which posts to read because I think it's quite clear that I *WAS* doing a slow recomp and now I'm deciding how much to up my carbs now that I'm changing focus to muscle growth rather than fat loss (not changing from "cut" to "bulk" either).

Come to think of it, have i ever even promoted 2g/lb/day protein? I said it's what i'm going to do, but i don't know if that's best for me either way. It works so i don't know why i'd lower it to 1g/lb/day to even see. What would i do instead anyway? Eat more carbs instead? No thanks, 2g of protein per pound works for me and lots of carbs bloat me. I've actually been doing about 1.5g/lb for quite a while. *on a recomp*

I promote neither. What I promote are less threads about it because on this message board alone i've seen it a zillion damn times. Wasn't it just last week or two weeks ago you were arguing protein with someone and the thread went on ad nauseum with logical fallacies flying left and right from both sides and still neither side will budge and aren't listening to each other anyway because they're too busy trying to prove their point and act cool rather than accomplish anything worthwhile?

Did you miss the part about carbs postworkout? Or ever been over any of the stuff about other ways to restore glycogen besides carbs?


I don't know anything. I am clueless. Everyone satisfied?

I am completely uninterested in any sciency mathy reply or two page document cherry picking studies that work for ya. And hell i even come from a science/math background too but i don't flaunt it around or become overly enamored by it all.

 

[Omen]

Low carbs to lose weight. And everyone and their mom does it, and everyone and their mom doesn't understand.

I wish I had a dime for every time someone said they are on a low carb diet. I know, next you're going to say low carb diets are fine, and they work great.

Dont worry, I wont even go there on a low carb diet. That ones for the birds.

Hey, what ever you do is what you do. More power to you.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Low carbs to lose weight. And everyone and their mom does it, and everyone and their mom doesn't understand.

I wish I had a dime for every time someone said they are on a low carb diet. I know, next you're going to say low carb diets are fine, and they work great.

Dont worry, I wont even go there on a low carb diet. That ones for the birds.

Hey, what ever you do is what you do. More power to you.

as I said in the other thread, look at his results, then tell him he's doing things wrong.

 

[Omen]

Uh... You could try to starve yourself and lose weight. Yeah, I lost weight. Does that mean its doing things right? Does anyone know why TRUE low carb diets are bad? Wait... 100s have lost on them, so it must be ok. I mean if it works, then it must be the best thing. I sure hope low carb diets stay off this board. I dont hear much about them, but i'm waiting. Cause this topic has been put to rest, shame, and everything in between.

 

[Warboss Alex]

He didn't lose 'weight'. He lost fat mass, gained significant strength and possibly muscle mass and looks awesome (by his own admission anyway ). This is the holy grail which MANY say is impossible.

Do you mean to tell me there's BETTER results than this, if he'd done things 'properly'?

 

[Omen]

He didn't lose 'weight'. He lost fat mass, gained significant strength and possibly muscle mass and looks awesome (by his own admission anyway ). This is the holy grail which MANY say is impossible.

Do you mean to tell me there's BETTER results than this, if he'd done things 'properly'?

I dont have a WHOLE deal for him so I cant analyze it. All I was referring too was low carbs. Some people do ok cause low carbs isn't really low carbs.

If you eat 500g per day and cut it to 250g, that's a 50% decrease, but not low. Some do the whole 12g per day and crap like that. More than likely he didn't do that, and I really dont know his definition of LOW CARB for himself.

Low carb for me would be about 200g.

 

[spesmilitis]

how much do you weight omen? It seems that high carbs work best for the 140 and below crowd.