Operative Social Conventions

WestCoaster

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
2,028
Reaction score
31
I admire Heffner, though the bath robe deal gets old. LOL!

He's pretty honest about his intentions. I saw a bio of him on TV and he said he wasn't meant to be married. At least he's honest about it.

The young women that flock to Hef? Don't they CHOOSE to do that? I find it funny that women get mad at Hef for dating young hotties. Hef never put a gun to any of these women's heads, did he?

I find Heffner to be infinitely more honest than the guy in a bad marriage cheating on his wife, or the guy in a bad marriage whose too chicken-sh-t to get out of it. (See one of my many AFC friends. Would rather live in misery than take the risk of getting out.)

The language of today has allowed women too many outs and blamed men for things they shouldn't be blamed for.
 

STR8UP

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
6,911
Reaction score
123
WestCoaster said:
I admire Heffner, though the bath robe deal gets old. LOL!

He's pretty honest about his intentions. I saw a bio of him on TV and he said he wasn't meant to be married. At least he's honest about it.

The young women that flock to Hef? Don't they CHOOSE to do that? I find it funny that women get mad at Hef for dating young hotties. Hef never put a gun to any of these women's heads, did he?

I find Heffner to be infinitely more honest than the guy in a bad marriage cheating on his wife, or the guy in a bad marriage whose too chicken-sh-t to get out of it. (See one of my many AFC friends. Would rather live in misery than take the risk of getting out.)

The language of today has allowed women too many outs and blamed men for things they shouldn't be blamed for.
Yea, Hef for president!

I saw an interview of him not too long ago, and thought he would be a pretty cool dude to hang out with (hot, naked women friends aside).

I respect ANYONE who tells it like it is, male or female. Hef is a great example of someone who is who he is, take it or leave it. I mean, really, how could any one of his 22 yr od "girlfriends" have anything to say when he sends them out to the recycling bin.
 

STR8UP

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
6,911
Reaction score
123
Rollo-

I sent you a PM or an email awhile back regarding your book project. I'm in the process of doing somethng similar and I have a good amount of business and marketing experience so if you want to compare notes let me know. I can honestly see something like this being HUGE if it's done the right way.

Good post, as usual.
 

Latinoman

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
4,031
Reaction score
57
STR8UP said:
Yea, Hef for president!

I saw an interview of him not too long ago, and thought he would be a pretty cool dude to hang out with (hot, naked women friends aside).

I respect ANYONE who tells it like it is, male or female. Hef is a great example of someone who is who he is, take it or leave it. I mean, really, how could any one of his 22 yr od "girlfriends" have anything to say when he sends them out to the recycling bin.
Helf is a SUPER MILLIONAIRE. Anyone with that amount of money coming from magazines of naked women should have ZERO issues telling it like it is.
 

Latinoman

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
4,031
Reaction score
57
Sometimes when I go to Borders and grab a book (the non-fiction type)...the ones that capture my attention are the ones that start with some kind of example.

Perhaps you can start with "Jack"...and provide some kind of scenario in which Jack (the CEO) is involved in sarging (the one that is terrible with women). Then provide another example with "Joe" (the Doctor) and his life at home with his wife (a woman that used to be a "single mother" and now leaves him at home with the kids while she goes on her "girls night out")...and "Jim" (the beer buddy that goes to sport bars with his boys) and his life with his fiance (the one that goes to the bar and screams at him OR the one that is 7-10 years older than him - he 30 and she 37-40).

And illustrate on each example how each one of this men (regardless of their professional and even social "male" reputation) have surrendered their masculinity.

Then add some funny stuff...and some serious in between.

Heck...include movies examples too! I know they are fiction and fantasy, but men relates very well to movies. That's why I personally talk about movie characters when I give examples.
 

Latinoman

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
4,031
Reaction score
57
And start with one of your examples using the younger man involved with the "cougar" woman and after stating how he has fallen for todays feminist crap...literally copy paste your post in this Forum about how women go past their prime after certain age (a MASTERFUL post).

That's controversial and something that will get people to buy. Nothing wrong with using a "seudonimo" (Spanish for an "author's name other than your real name").
 

DoubleA

Senior Don Juan
Joined
Jan 6, 2003
Messages
429
Reaction score
1
Age
50
Location
Washington Metro Area
Interesting...
 

Phyzzle

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
1,967
Reaction score
35
Our philosophy needs the same intellectual edifice we find in feminism. Right now, there's a lot of anti-feminism in the world, but it's all stupid Bible-thumping or sloganeering.

I'm no Bible thumper, but I'm nearly convinced that every social ill in our society can be traced to the loss of shame about being a single mom. This in turn was caused by the feminist programme of removing consequences for a woman's life choices. Especially by shaming men who look after their own reproductive interests.

Don't be angry about it: if they didn't look after female interests, they wouldn't be "feminist" now would they?

"seudonimo" (Spanish for an "author's name other than your real name").
(English word is pseudonym, from the latin I guess.)
 
Last edited:

Latinoman

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
4,031
Reaction score
57
Rollo Tomassi said:
As most of you know I'm currently in the process of writing a book on Positive Masculinity and I'm in the early stages of the first draft now after a very lengthy preparation process and outlining key elements as meticuously as possible. My focus in doing so is to establish some creditability on my part for the undoubtedly controversial theories that I'm presenting in the book. My degrees are in Fine Art and Psychology (behavioral with an emphasis on personality studies), and while I'm in the process of doing post grad work, I certainly don't possess a PhD in psychology. Needless to say i don't think this disqualifies me from writing a book on anything - If "Dr." Phil can write a dozen books on everything from weightloss to child rearing I think I can get published too - however I want to have as well reasoned and as well backed up ideas as possible in regards to what I'll be sending out to publishers, so actually the most work is collecting and organizing my ideas into a solid statement. Writing comes easy for me, it's the ground work that takes time and effort.

Often I'll be in the middle of some socio-psychological tear on a particular topic when I'll come to a dead halt because I play my own devil's advocate while I'm typing and reasoning aloud, and have to review and edit the paragraphs I've spent the last 2 hours constructing because I'd failed to consider how others might interpret my intent, or I'd overlooked some element and had to go back and address that issue. Needless to say it's an arduous process, but I've found that starting topics here in regards to certain theories and ideas I have to see what their intent will be read as helps me greatly. So with this in mind I'm presenting a particular section of my work here to see what the concensus is on what I've come to call Operative Social Conventions. I had originally titled the section Feminine Operative Social Conventions, and I may still go back to that, but after you read this you'll see how these conventions (or contrivances) need Men to play along with them for them to exist in the first place, or so I've reasoned.

Operative Social Conventions

For the long time posters of this board, and in particular the Mature Men's board, we've become all too familiar with a standard set of problems that are commonly asked of us for advice - "Should I date younger/older women with/without children?""what about women with money/career?"etc. for example. So often are we petitioned for our take on these dillemas that we have a tendency to repeat back a standard reply for them. I count myself among those who do this as well. I'm very prone to see the forest for the trees so to speak and fire back with my stand by reply of Spin More Plates. And while these response are novel to those reading them for the first time (and hopefully having their eyes opened for the first time too), I came to realize that I was guilty of not seeing the forset with regards to why certain topics are more frequently reoccuring problems for the AFC and DJ alike. For the most part, Plate Theory covers a multitude of AFC sins, but my concern was with understanding why these questions come up so often and what their root cause is. To this effect I've attempted to 'distill' down the symptoms (i.e. the commonly related problems) to the motivation behind them (i.e. the disease). This has lead me to a new theory of operative social conventions.

I've posted in several thread about these conventions before, but never really explored the idea until now. Essentially all of the symptoms of these conventions are manifested as the frequent problems guys come up with, but the disease is the latent purpose of these conventions. For every guy asking if it's a good idea to date a single mother or an older woman, there's a single mother or older woman perpetuating the convention in order to best ensure her capacity to secure a man capable of provisioning for her. I wont ramble off into the bio-psychological aspect of why this is such an all imprtant drive for women (and men in some cases), I've covered this more than adequitely in many prior threads. Instead I'll focus on certain conventions, the way they operate and their latent operative function.

Shame
Perhaps the easiest and most recognizable form of social convention is shame. Not only this, but it is also the most easily employable and the most widely accepted - not just by women of all ages and descriptions, but also by popular culture and the media.

Exapmles:
“Men should date women their own age.”
“Men shouldn’t be so ‘shallow’ as to put off single mothers as viable long term mates.”
“Men have ‘fragile egos’ that need constant affirmation in an almost infantile respect.”
“Men feel threatened by ‘successful’ women.”


As well as being popularized myths, all of these are subtle (and not so subtle)manipulations of shame. Each is an operative social convention that places a man into a position of having to live up to an idealized standard that simultaneously raises the standard for a woman, thus placing her into a better position of sexual selection and in some instances, leveling the percieved playingfield with regard to the feminine competition dynamic (i.e single moms, older and professional women ought to be just as desirable as the younger women men biologically prefer).

The ‘Shallow’ effect – The useful myth of superficiality.

I'm mentioning this as an aside to the Shame methodology since it appears to me to be the root of the Shame operative. In all of the above examples (or symptoms) the burden of expectation that is placed on a man comes with the threat of being perceived as "Shallow" or superficial. In otherwords, the very questioning of whether or not a man ought to date a single mother comes with the veiled threat of having women (mothers or not) tar the questioning man with being superficial. This 'Shallow' effect is so pervasive in so many AFCs, young and old, that I've counseled that it becomes an automatic default defense. Even under conditions of complete anonymity, the Shallow Effect becomes so ego-invested in their personality that even the potential of being perceived as "shallow" is avoided. This is a major obstacle in transitioning from AFC to DJ. AFCs all initially laugh at PUA technique (C&F, Peacocking, Neg Hits, etc.) because they carry the potential of being perceived as 'shallow'. The truth of the matter is that, individually we are only as superficial as our own self-perceprtions allow, but the Shallow Effect is probably the most useful convention so long as it keeps men doubting their ingenuousness and self-validity as a trade for women's intimacy while complying with their control of a relationship's framing.

Selection Position Insurance
Examples:
Women are ‘allowed’ to understand men, but women must necessarily ALWAYS be a mystery to men.

Getting “lucky” with a woman when referring to sex.


Selection position insuring methodologies revolve around fomenting the Scarcity Mentality in men. If the value can be inflated, the value can be increased, thus ensuring a controlling frame. This convention holds fast to the Feminine Mystique or Female Intuition mythology. So long as women remain 'uknowable' there becomes less motivation to try to understand them. In fact this convention actively discourages any attempt to understand the feminine to the point that men have adopted it and parot it back without being cognizant of it. This is exactly the reason why guys will ridicule men seeking understanding of women when they search it out in "how to get girls" books or DVDs, or on the internet. It's also why men who profess to 'know' how women operate are ridiculed; it's a perfect paradox - to attempt to understand the feminine OR to profess to know the feminine is not only laughable, but it places a man into the Shallow Effect in either case.
Great post.
 

Latinoman

Master Don Juan
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
4,031
Reaction score
57
Rollo Tomassi said:
Social Escape Clauses

Examples:
Women always have the prerogative to change their minds. Men must be resolute.

Proactive and Reactive Pseudo-Friendship Rejections:
LJBF rejections – “I already have a boyfriend” or “I’m not interested in a relationship right now” rejections.


Escape clause conventions always offer an OUT to a woman and obsolve her of, or dramatically reduce her responsibility for personal accountability by means of social reinforcement. A stripper can complain of her self-degredation by men, but be completely blameless for her decisions to do so by virtue of her social conditions, that are, again, the perceived result of a male controlled society. Feminine Prerogative has been an accepted social norm since human society was in the hunter/gatherer epoch. Like the Position Insurance convention, this serves to ensure that the 'mysterious woman' is validated in her arbitrariness by social reinforcement. The opposite of this convention is enforced for men, they must be resolute while accepting that a woman "has the right to change her mind." This, and the carrot of a womans intimacy as a reward, is exactly why it is socially acceptable for a man to wait hours for a woman to prepare/show for a date and the kiss of death for a man to be more than 5-10 minutes late. He must be punctual, she is afforded leniency.

I don't think I need to go into too much detail regarding the LJBF esacpe clause as it's been done to death on this forum by myself and many others, but I will add that the LJBF esacpe is perhaps the single most useful convention ever conceived by women. The LJBF rejection has classically ensured that a woman can reject a man yet still maintain his previous attention. It also puts the responsibility for the rejection back on his shoulders since, should he decline the 'offer of friendship', he is then responsible for entertaining this friendship. This of course has the potential to backfire on women these days since the standard AFC will accept an LJBF rejection in the mistaken hopes of 'proving' himself worthy of her intimacy by being the perfect 'surrogate boyfriend' - fulfilling all her attention and loyalty prerequisites with no expectation of reciprocating her own intimacy. The LJBF rejection also serves as an ego preservation for her in that having offered the false olive branch of 'friendship' to him in her rejection she also can sleep that night knowing that she (and any of her peers) wont think any less of herself. After all, she offered to be friends, right? She is excused from any feelings of personal guilt or any responsibilities for his feelings if she still wants to remain amiable with him.


Sexual Competition Sabotage
Examples:
“She’s a ‘slvt’ – he’s a ‘fag’” and the sub-communications in the terminology.

Catty remarks, gossip, feminine communication methodologies


This convention is the reputation destroyer and it's easy to observe this in the field. Since it also serves a woman attention needs, it is among the most socially acceptable and widely flaunted, however the foundations and latent purpose of this convention takes some consideration to understand. When women employ gossip it comes natural since it is an emotional form of communication (men have a far lower propensity to use gossip), but the purpose of it is meant to disqualifiy a potential sexual competitior. In terms of female to female gossip this serves the attention need, but when men are brought into the salaciousness it becomes a qualifying method. By saying a woman is a slvt the sub-communication is, "she sleeps with a lot of guys and is therefore inelligible as a candidate deserving of a man's long term provisioning capacity, due to her obvious inability to remain loyal to any one, individual male." This then becomes the ultimate weapon in influencing a man's (long term) sexual selection.

This breeding sabotage isn't limited to just women though. What's the first thing most men are apt to say about another, anonymous, extremely attractive
male? "He's probably a fag." Men have learned this convention from women, they sexually disqualify a man in the most complete way possible; "this guy might be as attractive as a GQ model, but he would never breed with a woman and is therefore disqualified as a suitor for your intimacy."


Gender Role Redefinition
Examples:
Masculinity is ridiculous and/or negative with the potential for violent extremes.

“Men should get in touch with their feminine sides.” – Identification as false attraction.


Although I have a few more conventions in mind, I'll finish this post with this, the most obvious and most discussed convention. There's no shortage of threads dedicated to this convention, so I wont rehash what's been stated. Instead, I should point out the latent purpose behind the popularity and mass cultural acceptance of this, the most damaging convention. The function behind this convention could be androgeny as an idealized state, or a power struggle to redefine masculine and feminine attributes, or even to ensure women as the primary selectors in mating. All of those can be argued and ae valid, especially considering how prone to accepting and perpetuating this convention is among men today, but I think the deeper purpose, the real latent function is a sexual selection process.

It's the man who remains in touch with his masculine side, the guy who, despite all of pop-culture denigrating and ridiculing his gender and the very aspects that make it a necessary, positive strength of human society, will endure and steadfastly resist the influences that want to turn it into something it was never intended; it's this guy and his confidence that women all over the world find irresistable. He's embodies the masculine that their feminine has been seeking and they can't explain it. This is the penultimate sh!t test in sexual selection - to discover or learn what it is to be postively masculine and remain so in a world that constantly berates his gender, that tells him he's poisoned by his testosterone while confirming the same masculine attributes as a positive for women. It's the guy who understands that it's gender differences, not androgynous similarities, that make us strong. It's the Man who can see that the sexes were meant to be complimentary, not adversarial, who passes this sh!t test.
Bump
 

Faca

Banned
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
151
Reaction score
1
Latinoman said:
Helf is a SUPER MILLIONAIRE. Anyone with that amount of money coming from magazines of naked women should have ZERO issues telling it like it is.
Money won't help you to attract women!

- faca
 

seanchai

Master Don Juan
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
767
Reaction score
5
Age
38
Location
Seattle
Hey, this looks like fun. I like where this is going RT, but let's see some APA STYLE CITATIONS!!!!
 

azanon

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 8, 2006
Messages
2,292
Reaction score
41
Latinoman said:
RT's a brilliant writer. The only thing thats pretty rough is his punctuation (use of periods, commas, hyphens, semicolons, the occasional run-on sentence that needs to be 2 sentences). But those issues are easily fixed at the editor stage i guess.

The content's the hardest part though, and RT has that nailed.
 

blueguy

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
714
Reaction score
11
I just read some of the other comments here...

I agree, RT writes with a lot of coherence and comprehension. But I kind of relate to what some of the others are saying about the target audience. Most of us are certainly intelligent enough to understand the significance behind the writing. But I think for a lot of people with different backgrounds or personalities, they may ask themselves "why do I need to know this?" or "what is he trying to say?" etc. Different people learn things in different ways. I don't believe personality is static or limited to one area. But If I had to guess, the people who really understand the meaning and significance would score somewhere around an INTP or similar personality type on these tests:

http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html
http://www.kisa.ca/personality/

But INTP is also the rarest of the 16 personality types. It's the one of Albert Einstein. So while I'm sure the writing would gain critical acclaim among a certain audience, it'd possibly be a smaller one.

I think the reason Dr. Phil is so popular is because his solutions to problems are dumbed down and also involve a lot of examples and emotions that are familiar to a wide array of people. I think if the book really wants to influence a mass audience, it'd have to cater to those many learning needs.
 

MacAvoy

Banned
Joined
May 10, 2003
Messages
2,940
Reaction score
35
Location
Northern Ontario
RT, you definately got knowledge. I'll give you two pieces of advice. First is, your posts are always too long. Even though they're great, you need to be in a certain "mood" to absorb that much info. Most people on a forum (your target audience) are not ready to absorb that much info.

Tomorrow will come my thoughts on the actual substance. Stay tuned
 

Rollo Tomassi

Master Don Juan
Joined
Oct 4, 2004
Messages
5,309
Reaction score
340
Age
56
Location
Nevada
"Shallow" is a catch term for a feminine social convention. Really people are only as 'shallow' as their conditions permit and the value we place on what exactly defines that person's character. Less attractive women will ALWAYS encourage the perception that more attractive women are 'superficial' or 'shallow' because it's an intangible perception that can only be proven by getting to know an individual woman. The subconscious assessment is obvious; perception is everything and when a woman is blatantly more attractive than another the only fallback available to the less attractive one is to impugn the other's character. The myth of the physically flawless woman being synonymous with a character flawed woman is constantly reinforced as a methodolgy for feminine competition.

The male part of this equation is of course guilt by association. As a man, ideal physical proportions and symetry in a woman has an obvious effect and is thus the commodity to be sought after. If a less attractive woman can convince a man, or shame a man, into believing by default that the more physically ideal a woman is, the less her intellectual, empathetic, integrity capacity is she improves her chance of breeding with a male that would under normal circumstances opt for the physically more ideal woman. Therefore, by associating himself with the attractive woman, or overtly displaying a preference for a physically superior woman, he then becomes as 'shallow' as she is. The social mechanism is designed to make him want to avoid this association and thus prefer the less attractive, but perceptually more 'deep' woman in favor of the hot piece of ass.
 
Top