My Equation needs Fixing

[Juando]

On another thread here Jophil said:

A woman's real 'Interest Level' = Attraction plus Value plus Comfort.

Interesting food for thought.

Reflecting on my situation and experiences with women lately
many have been frustrating. Lots of flaking.

So when I look at the equation, for me the ATTRACTION part is solid.
I attract women, not all of them, but so what, enough of them, and it's
obvious that their attraction is real.

COMFORT- I'm pretty good at making women feel safe and comfortable.
No problem there except for those times when I get a bit ahead of myself
because of being to eager, too hungry, and in those cases the woman's comfort level may be a bit challenged, but that 's the exception.

VALUE- here's where I probably need help.
I'm assuming the reason women don't stick around after their initial attraction, flirtation, making out, dates, etc. is because they do not perceive value, that I don't have enough to offer.

So, how do I project VALUE?
Basically, I'm attractive, professional, well-spoke, thoughtful, good shape,
adventuresome, blah-blah.

AFC? yep, but making good progress looking in the AFC mirror and improving.

I'm really curious how you guys look at this, if you've had to grapple with it,
your remedies, etc.

 

[jonwon]

On another thread here Jophil said:

A woman's real 'Interest Level' = Attraction plus Value plus Comfort.

Interesting food for thought.

Reflecting on my situation and experiences with women lately
many have been frustrating. Lots of flaking.

So when I look at the equation, for me the ATTRACTION part is solid.
I attract women, not all of them, but so what, enough of them, and it's
obvious that their attraction is real.

COMFORT- I'm pretty good at making women feel safe and comfortable.
No problem there except for those times when I get a bit ahead of myself
because of being to eager, too hungry, and in those cases the woman's comfort level may be a bit challenged, but that 's the exception.

VALUE- here's where I probably need help.
I'm assuming the reason women don't stick around after their initial attraction, flirtation, making out, dates, etc. is because they do not perceive value, that I don't have enough to offer.

So, how do I project VALUE?
Basically, I'm attractive, professional, well-spoke, thoughtful, good shape,
adventuresome, blah-blah.

AFC? yep, but making good progress looking in the AFC mirror and improving.

I'm really curious how you guys look at this, if you've had to grapple with it,
your remedies, etc.

Define:
"that I don't have enough to offer".

 

[ketostix]

Well I think attraction requires some value,so if you're getting flakes I would think you do not have as much attraction as you assume. Value seems to be pretty subjectively interpreted by women. All 3, attraction, value and comfort are intertwined. But the biggest measure of value for a woman is that other women want you. Yeah I know, the catch 22 there is obvious. You would have to give more details on these flakes for anyone to make suggestions.

 

[guru1000]

Need more details is right. Give an example. What happened on the first date?
What dynamics took place after that? How often did you call? What did you say? How did she respond? What was the net result? If you are an AFC, the probability is you are AFC'ing from A to Z. Let's start wtih A.

 

[DavenJuan]

Juando...very interesting that you start this thread. I remember the post about the equation and i was thinking the same thing myself

attraction and comfort are not my flaws either. The value is were the questions mark come into play.

speaking within my LTR, being behind financially, driving a piece of sh*t car, not always having enough money...are these factores that play into your value?

i am not lacking in "perceiving" to have value initially. However the longer the LTR, the more it seems the VALUE starts to fade..

im stumped just as well as you my friend

 

[jophil28]

All 3, attraction, value and comfort are intertwined. But the biggest measure of value for a woman is that other women want you.

THis is good thinking. They are intertwined and they are closely related.
I would go a little further.
"Value" is subjective BUT there are certain characteristics and attributes which seem to be universally VALUED by women.
For example Brad Pitt is attactive and has high value and also appears to be the kind of guy who sends out a "comfortable and safe " vibe. Bingo! Every woman would marry Brad if he asked..
On the other hand Mick Jagger is NOT attactive ( at least NOT in the traditional sense) but he has high value because he is adored by lots of women and is hard to get. However he does not send out 'comfort' vibes. So 'ole Mick stays in the role of the perennial rock star. Women may want to f**k him (once) and get "that" photo BUT I doubt that they would marry him.

The equation is a work in progress for me.

I am certain that attraction alone will get you a lot of first dates and perhaps a few second dates but after that she does not return your calls.

Value alone with low attraction and no comfort will get you exploited by the users, AWs and goldiggers who want a slice of whatever she values in you..

Comfort , all by itself will get you into the friend zone after one date( maybe even DURING )THis is what AFCs create on first dates - comfort only.

However if you can build and combine all three you have the magic formula....

On Edit - The concept of havng "value" goes way beyond having "social proof" or being rich or wearing Armani. These things are helpful, but I think that having 'value' goes off in many directions. THis is why we occasionally read advice about having a purposeful and productive life without a woman in it- a life of value.

 

[jonwon]

THis is good thinking. They are intertwined and they are closely related.
I would go a little further.
"Value" is subjective BUT there are certain characteristics and attributes which seem to be universally VALUED by women.
For example Brad Pitt is attactive and has high value and also appears to be the kind of guy who sends out a "comfortable and safe " vibe. Bingo! Every woman would marry Brad if he asked..
On the other hand Mick Jagger is NOT attactive ( at least NOT in the traditional sense) but he has high value because he is adored by lots of women and is hard to get. However he does not send out 'comfort' vibes. So 'ole Mick stays in the role of the perennial rock star. Women may want to f**k him (once) and get "that" photo BUT I doubt that they would marry him.

The equation is a work in progress for me.

I am certain that attraction alone will get you a lot of first dates and perhaps a few second dates but after that she does not return your calls.

Value alone with low attraction and no comfort will get you exploited by the users, AWs and goldiggers who want a slice of whatever she values in you..

Comfort , all by itself will get you into the friend zone after one date( maybe even DURING )THis is what AFCs build on first dates,

However if you can build and combine all three you have the magic formula....

From your post, the best thing to do then is:

Work on attraction, since why even drag it out past a few dates anyway?

Oh thats right we need to find a mate for life! (well not me, the first few dates are golden in this scenario, the rest would be things i would purposly reduce in that method, for me personnally). But for the OP, i can see how they would be golden.

Not sure about your mick jagger analysis though.

 

[DavenJuan]

THis is good thinking. They are intertwined and they are closely related.
I would go a little further.
"Value" is subjective BUT there are certain characteristics and attributes which seem to be universally VALUED by women.
For example Brad Pitt is attactive and has high value and also appears to be the kind of guy who sends out a "comfortable and safe " vibe. Bingo! Every woman would marry Brad if he asked..
On the other hand Mick Jagger is NOT attactive ( at least NOT in the traditional sense) but he has high value because he is adored by lots of women and is hard to get. However he does not send out 'comfort' vibes. So 'ole Mick stays in the role of the perennial rock star. Women may want to f**k him (once) and get "that" photo BUT I doubt that they would marry him.

The equation is a work in progress for me.

I am certain that attraction alone will get you a lot of first dates and perhaps a few second dates but after that she does not return your calls.

Value alone with low attraction and no comfort will get you exploited by the users, AWs and goldiggers who want a slice of whatever she values in you..

Comfort , all by itself will get you into the friend zone after one date( maybe even DURING )THis is what AFCs build on first dates,

However if you can build and combine all three you have the magic formula....

makes sense to a degree

however this is still a bit confusing to me...

in terms of VALUE, my gf always notices that other women check me out. Other women flirting and hitting on me. Which in turn relates to giving me VALUE. ...but this is only "percieved" value.

Whats the difference if any... Perceiving vs. actually having

i guess what im trying to say is.. i know that im valuable, my stock will increase the more i learn , more i make, and simply based on my goals. ..however im not there yet, and in knowing that, how do any of us change perceived VALUE to actually having it.

...not sure if what im trying to say is coming out the way i want it to

 

[Maxtro]

I think attraction is by far the most important part. Attraction is what gets you the dates and attraction is what gets you in her pants.

Younger girls tend to go for the bad boys who do nothing but attract them. I doubt that bad boys give them much comfort and if they have any value is questionable.

When the girls is trying to live in the real world and have an LTR then the importance of value and comfort is higher. But still, if your levels of value and comfort are high but your attraction is low, you won't be having sex with her.

 

[guru1000]

THis is good thinking. They are intertwined and they are closely related.
I would go a little further.
"Value" is subjective BUT there are certain characteristics and attributes which seem to be universally VALUED by women.
For example Brad Pitt is attactive and has high value and also appears to be the kind of guy who sends out a "comfortable and safe " vibe. Bingo! Every woman would marry Brad if he asked..
On the other hand Mick Jagger is NOT attactive ( at least NOT in the traditional sense) but he has high value because he is adored by lots of women and is hard to get. However he does not send out 'comfort' vibes. So 'ole Mick stays in the role of the perennial rock star. Women may want to f**k him (once) and get "that" photo BUT I doubt that they would marry him.

The equation is a work in progress for me.

I am certain that attraction alone will get you a lot of first dates and perhaps a few second dates but after that she does not return your calls.

Value alone with low attraction and no comfort will get you exploited by the users, AWs and goldiggers who want a slice of whatever she values in you..

Comfort , all by itself will get you into the friend zone after one date( maybe even DURING )THis is what AFCs build on first dates,

However if you can build and combine all three you have the magic formula....

Agreed but this is very tricky.

How does one project value?

Now on a first date, with an AFC understanding, this will work against him.
An AFC might misconstrue value as saying "I am financially well off, I own properties" which can be an instant turnoff to a QUALITY GIRL. Great for a gold digger!

Ok so what other value can we project. Here's an example of what I use. Pure DHV.

Girl: So when was your last relationship?
ME: What is this an interview?
Girl: LOL just making conversation
ME: OK last interview question I will allow. It was 3 months ago
Girl: So what happened , how long did it last?
ME: It lasted a couple years, she got ****y, so I left her
Girl: Why did she get ****y?
ME: In the beginning , she was fine. She gets this modeling job at FORD. It gets to her head, and she wanted to start argueing.
Girl: And?
ME: I dont argue so I left.
Girl: So that's it, you leave? (sh*t test)
ME: Yes ( ****y response to her sh*t test, she expected justification or explanantion)


An AFC might look at this and say this wasn't a good convo. I didnt show her STABILITY and COMFORT. But the dynamics behind this is HUGE DHV. Most important, I DIDN"T CARE TO IMPRESS HER!

Value at least on the first date is built in convo in impressing her the least while DHV which is intertwined.

BTW 2 hours after this convo, she spread her legs.

 

[Interceptor]

Value is subjective.

Get a guy that looks like Brad Pitt.

BUT...
He doesn'thave a lot of money.


Willl women value him?

Imagine him again.

BUT...

this time he is a mama's boy.

Value?


Imagine him again.

BUT...
He is lousy in bed.

Value?


Imagine him again.

BUT...
he's a chicken sh*t who runs away from conflict and challenge.

Value?


What do women value?

If you have a strong internal compass, and a strong masculine compass....it doesn't really matter what SHE "values".

This does not mean a man should not care about a woman's needs.
What that means is that he does not deal or dwell in a woman's periphery,or superficiality, in the sense, that he only deals in the heart of the matter for her, and for HIMSELF.

Some women value money highly , meaning, you have to have a LOT of it to be with her.
Is that the woman you want in your life?

Some women want you to worshsip her, and put her on the pedastle.
Is that the woman you want?

Ultimately what we may be looking at everything from what SHE wants.
What about what YOU want?
A woman can give you a list iof what she WANTS.
BUt rarely can she give you a list oif what she NEEDS.
Rarely can she describe EXACTLY what is it that awakens her desires and attraction for a man.

Ultimately, THIS is the ONLY thing we are to be concerned with.

What ATTRACTS a woman.
And her most basic NEEDS to STAY in a long term relationship, if that's what YOU want.
Yes, you MUST have resources.

But all these RESOURCES have nothing to do with her whims and moods. In that, they are not superficial desires.

They are all about YOU.
Your resources.
She wants them.


If you review the most basic Masculine traits, and develop them to YOUR liking, then you have a stable platform to launch your life, and to live in peace, and fulfillment,.

They are:

Lover
Hunter
Provider
Warrior

Leadership springs from all thes traits.
Confidence in SELF, and more importantly, a LACK OF INSECURITY...are MUST HAVES in a man's character.

Posess these traits, and much of "what do WOMEN want?" is trivial.

You know why?
The answer will be simple.

THEY WILL "WANT" YOU



Remember, Men do NOT 'follow" women.
They only FOLLOW their own internal compass......
Think about this.

 

[jophil28]

makes sense to a degree

however this is still a bit confusing to me...

in terms of VALUE, my gf always notices that other women check me out. Other women flirting and hitting on me. Which in turn relates to giving me VALUE. ...but this is only "percieved" value.

This is interesting because the Seduction Community is in love with the idea of creating "perceived " value over creating real value. I guess that if all you want is a series of ONS then creating "perceived" value will do just fine.
I know that some here will argue that all value is perceived but lets not do that here.
Sure your social proof is rocketing if your G/f sees that other women check you out BUT would that motivate her to treat you will admiration and respect ? Or would she most likely just keep a closer eye on you in the company of other women to protect her investment.?

 

[DavenJuan]

Value is subjective.

Get a guy that looks like Brad Pitt.

BUT...
He doesn'thave a lot of money.


Willl women value him?

Imagine him again.

BUT...

this time he is a mama's boy.

Value?


Imagine him again.

BUT...
He is lousy in bed.

Value?


Imagine him again.

BUT...
he's a chicken sh*t who runs away from conflict and challenge.

Value?


What do women value?

If you have a strong internal compass, and a strong masculine compass....it doesn't really matter what SHE "values".

This does not mean a man should not care about a woman's needs.
What that means is that he does not deal or dwell in a woman's periphery,or superficiality, in the sense, that he only deals in the heart of the matter for her, and for HIMSELF.

Some women value money highly , meaning, you have to have a LOT of it to be with her.
Is that the woman you want in your life?

Some women want you to worshsip her, and put her on the pedastle.
Is that the woman you want?

Ultimately what we may be looking at everything from what SHE wants.
What about what YOU want?
A woman can give you a list iof what she WANTS.
BUt rarely can she give you a list oif what she NEEDS.
Rarely can she describe EXACTLY what is it that awakens her desires and attraction for a man.

Ultimately, THIS is the ONLY thing we are to be concerned with.

What ATTRACTS a woman.
And her most basic NEEDS to STAY in a long term relationship, if that's what YOU want.
Yes, you MUST have resources.

But all these RESOURCES have nothing to do with her whims and moods. In that, they are not superficial desires.

They are all about YOU.
Your resources.
She wants them.


If you review the most basic Masculine traits, and develop them to YOUR liking, then you have a stable platform to launch your life, and to live in peace, and fulfillment,.

They are:

Lover
Hunter
Provider
Warrior

Leadership springs from all thes traits.
Confidence in SELF, and more importantly, a LACK OF INSECURITY...are MUST HAVES in a man's character.

Posess these traits, and much of "what do WOMEN want?" is trivial.

You know why?
The answer will be simple.

THEY WILL "WANT" YOU



Remember, Men do NOT 'follow" women.
They only FOLLOW their own internal compass......
Think about this.

good point...based on your post we know women all VALUE different things. and we DONT want to get lost in trying to give/show/percieve VALUE based on her needs.

Women all value different things and is considered subjective to each one, however this equation is simply based on HIGH IL. i guess the bottom line is who cares on keeping HIGH IL if there values dont ecquate to our own ? very tricky subject.

the thing is we ALL value different things. so we all HAVE a sense of VALUE. but that doesnt mean everyone if anyone will always SEE the VALUE.

 

[DavenJuan]

This is interesting because the Seduction Community is in love with the idea of creating "perceived " value over creating real value. I guess that if all you want is a series of ONS then creating "perceived" value will do just fine.
I know that some here will argue that all value is perceived but lets not do that here.
Sure your social proof is rocketing if your G/f sees that other women check you out BUT would that motivate her to treat you will admiration and respect ? Or would she most likely just keep a closer eye on you in the company of other women to protect her investment.?

EXACTLY! thats just it. the onlyVALUE that seems to come easy is what is perceived. and not just with the gf.

based on the way i dress, PERCEIVED value

based on the way i carry myself PERCEIVED value

and i also dont want to get into all value is perceived, however i think that is the real issue here.

 

[Interceptor]

About "projecting" Value.

First we star off visually.
This means Body Language.

What is YOU R Body Language saying about YOU?

This includes Eye Contact.
Tone of Voice.
Measure, and control of body movements.
Facial expression that display confidence, yet, approachability.

Second, what do you say to people?
Meaning, what do you project verbally? SUbjects? Topics?
DO you know how to converse? Effectively?

Flirting.
Do you know hopw to flirt with a woman?
Can you recognie and explotyui the opportunities?
Are you coming across as exual, and conmfident, and most important leading?

What are you making the woman FEEL??
Do you have dynamics in tone of voice, eye contact, posture, etc?
Do you know the right time to be sexual, or in rapport, or to break rapport, or to DHV, or even to show vulnerability?
Are you too heavy on the "negs"? OR C+F?
Are you so inside your head thatyoua re actually hesitating for a split second before you speak?

IS it all coming from inside? Or from a BOOK?


How are you touching her?
Softly, sensually, sexually, dominantly...and tenderly?
Do you know a woman's body well enoughto know WHERE and HOW to touch her?
Or are you crude, unsure, and vulgar in your touch with her?

DO you have spiritual side to you?Do you value spirituality?
Do you have standards? Or will you take scraps and bread crumbs?
Do you have such a strong inner wisdom that you actually elevate other people's consciousness when they're with you?
Are you a natural leader? Do they come to you for guidance and leadership?

Material Wealth:
Job: Are you enjoying your job? Or do you hate it? Is it a transition? Are you moving to another career? is it paying your bills? Are you supplementing income? Are you looing for ways to increase income???? Are you doing what you LOVE, career wise? If not, WHY not? If not, then WHEN?

Home: Is it comfortable? Do you have privacy? Is it clean? Well stocked?

Car: Is it well running? Clean? Comfortable?

Bank: Are you saving? Investing? Looking toward the future? Focused on paying down debts? Or if none, not getting into debt? Are you watching you spending? Paying your bills on time? Responsible and conscious on your expenses?

Hobbies: Do you have any? Martial Arts, gardening, boxing, body building, poetry, literature, movies, flowers, animals, horse back riding, surfing,philosophy, sky diving, etc...

Outlook: POSITIVE. Period.
Nothing else exists. Period.

 

[Interceptor]

Two thumbs up for Daven Juan!

 

[Juando]

This is great stuff, guys.

Most insights ring true with me, and I actually think I'm on the right track with consolidating my own value to myself, with my own life, which is where I was when I attracted my last LTR.

Part of it is feeling impatient- great dates where everything seems to go right,
women literally hanging with me for hours and hours and me thinking afterwards: "I in!!" and then..... calls not returned, lukewarm responses,
flakiness.... to the point where I'm thinking, wait, that that great date really happen? Was I imagining things that she was all over me, following me around,
saying yes to whatever I wanted to do....

Maybe I just need to keep doing what I'm doing, shedding AFC, and the tide will turn but I'm wanting more tangible results, more sex, not especially looking for LTR or gf just having coming out of that- just want to have sustained results...

Want to say more, will join in later...

 

[Colossus]

Value is subjective.

Get a guy that looks like Brad Pitt.

BUT...
He doesn'thave a lot of money.


Willl women value him?

Imagine him again.

BUT...

this time he is a mama's boy.

Value?


Imagine him again.

BUT...
He is lousy in bed.

Value?


Imagine him again.

BUT...
he's a chicken sh*t who runs away from conflict and challenge.

Value?


What do women value?

If you have a strong internal compass, and a strong masculine compass....it doesn't really matter what SHE "values".

This does not mean a man should not care about a woman's needs.
What that means is that he does not deal or dwell in a woman's periphery,or superficiality, in the sense, that he only deals in the heart of the matter for her, and for HIMSELF.

Some women value money highly , meaning, you have to have a LOT of it to be with her.
Is that the woman you want in your life?

Some women want you to worshsip her, and put her on the pedastle.
Is that the woman you want?

Ultimately what we may be looking at everything from what SHE wants.
What about what YOU want?
A woman can give you a list iof what she WANTS.
BUt rarely can she give you a list oif what she NEEDS.
Rarely can she describe EXACTLY what is it that awakens her desires and attraction for a man.

Ultimately, THIS is the ONLY thing we are to be concerned with.

What ATTRACTS a woman.
And her most basic NEEDS to STAY in a long term relationship, if that's what YOU want.
Yes, you MUST have resources.

But all these RESOURCES have nothing to do with her whims and moods. In that, they are not superficial desires.

They are all about YOU.
Your resources.
She wants them.


If you review the most basic Masculine traits, and develop them to YOUR liking, then you have a stable platform to launch your life, and to live in peace, and fulfillment,.

They are:

Lover
Hunter
Provider
Warrior

Leadership springs from all thes traits.
Confidence in SELF, and more importantly, a LACK OF INSECURITY...are MUST HAVES in a man's character.

Posess these traits, and much of "what do WOMEN want?" is trivial.

You know why?
The answer will be simple.

THEY WILL "WANT" YOU



Remember, Men do NOT 'follow" women.
They only FOLLOW their own internal compass......
Think about this.

Brilliant post, Interceptor. The only guy who gets it.

Men are missing the boat when they get hung up on "creating" or "projecting" value. Concerns like this spring from the soil of caring too much what THEY think and want, and not what YOU want.

I dont believe God designed men to follow women. I believe he designed them to be our ezer, our companion. Whether you believe in God or not, this truth is universal.

What is a Man if he is always trying to shape, modify, or project himself to be of VALUE to women??
Why should we care?

Every woman is going to value different things. It is not a man's concern what they are. Blaze your own path...the right woman for YOU will see your value and respect your strength when she sees you dont need validation from any woman to be fulfilled.

 

[DavenJuan]

Brilliant post, Interceptor. The only guy who gets it.

Men are missing the boat when they get hung up on "creating" or "projecting" value. Concerns like this spring from the soil of caring too much what THEY think and want, and not what YOU want.

I dont believe God designed men to follow women. I believe he designed them to be our ezer, our companion. Whether you believe in God or not, this truth is universal.

What is a Man if he is always trying to shape, modify, or project himself to be of VALUE to women??
Why should we care?

Every woman is going to value different things. It is not a man's concern what they are. Blaze your own path...the right woman for YOU will see your value and respect your strength when she sees you dont need validation from any woman to be fulfilled.

agreed..but i think we are getting away from the OP. the issue is simply keepin HIGH IL. some ppl lack the soical skills or VALUE to maintain this.

I do think that a lot of ppl want to simply "perceive" and "project" a certain VALUE or fake truth, which is not the right approach or mindset

however...i think the OP was trying to say "how do you maintain HIGH IL when you have little VALUE?" ..and after this thread i think we know now that you cannot. nor should you want to keep HIGH IL if there is no VALUE there.

the issue i believe is worrying about HIGH IL rather than your OWN PERSONAL VALUE

 

[Drum&Bass]

good posts !! my 2 cents

So, how do I project VALUE?
Basically, I'm attractive, professional, well-spoke, thoughtful, good shape,
adventuresome, blah-blah.

By telling women what they want to hear.

The whole objective is to have sex right ? (so do what ever it takes to expedite the process)

If you ever have to convince any woman of your value, THATS A CLEAR INDICATION THAT SHE IS NOT WORTHY OF YOU and you NEED TO GROW A SET OF BALLS (thats only IF you have to TRY and prove yourself).

Remember as a man YOU DON'T NEED WOMEN...but WOMEN NEED YOU.

...and remember no matter how great she is, she's lying through her teeth to get your money, your attention for her ego or your willingness to marry her so she can get your money (at least for most women..and by most I mean 98%)