Missing pieces from my game

[MisterAl]

Something is messing up my game and I haven't found it, shot it and killed it yet.

For the past three weeks I've been spinning 3 to 6 plates at a time, dating a load of women. My schedule is jammed full, almost beyond my capacity to manage it. Unfortunately, I'm getting friendzoned a lot.

My biggest enemy seems to be the "nice guy" image. I'm still coming off like a mr. nice guy even though I take action against it. I do not compliment or supplicate. I use c+f and I rag on my date and keep her laughing at herself. I've improved my posture. I tell her when we're going out on a date and what we'll do. I do not ask, "can we?" or "will you?" I don't get clingy and I limit touching to kino and sometimes touching of hands. I use eye contact, probably too much. Convo is light and funny, but this may be a weak point for me. I keep it to feel good stuff and aim for 60/40 her/me. I'm well put-together with good clothes and I'm tall and thin, no problems here. Dammit it looks like my game still sucks though. Generating attraction is the hardest thing in the world.

I'm big-hearted and chivalrous, so I open doors and stuff and probably smile too much. I don't think it's bad, but it probably contributes to my nice guy image. This shouldn't be rocket science. I've been in ltrs and right now is part of my latest ltr recovery. What's missing is an element that tells her that I am more than just a friendly guy but a sexual man and that she should be attracted to me.

I have 2 or 3 new first dates coming up in the next week or so in addition to two third dates and a second date maybe with the chick I saw last night, but probably not. I need ideas and maybe a new aggressive direction. I am so burned out on first dates. I'm losing my energy. I'd like to build up energy with the women I have.

Typically I start off with a first date of ice cream and mini-golf at the local dairy (a famous one). This is New England, ice cream is tradition here so this isn't as corny as it might sound. This place is mobbed with hundreds of people every night in the summers. Eat ice cream, then visit the cows. Maybe my one-liners about the cows are starting to sound canned. Then I kick her ass at mini-golf. Next date, if I get one, is usually a week later, a walk somewhere touristy on the water and some drinks.

My goal is aiming for an ltr, though I see only short-term physical fun value with 2 or 3 of these girls right now while I'm aiming for ltr with two others. I realize I have no idea how to move quickly or excite these women. I've read The Bible, I practice DYD, but the "powerful, sexual man" element is missing and I don't know how to create it.

 

[WestCoaster]

Not sure how old you are, but mini-golf is for college students and younger, IMO. I don't see many professionals out at the mini-golf course. I know, Pook and others mention it ... it's for kids, or people with kids. Action dates can sometimes be overrated, also ice cream afterwards screams friends, too.

Why do I say this? Because I lead the country in being put in the friendzone and I DID THE EXACT SAME DATES YOU DID!

Concerts, fine dinners, plays, food with some booze mixed in, something a little deeper. I know, I know, we're supposed to go mini-golfing and ice creaming to keep it light ... bullsh-t.

Since you said you typically start off your dates with ice cream and mini-golf and they're not working, you have to change. The dairy thing -- no matter how popular by the locals -- is hokey.

Take her to a minor league baseball game and drink plenty of beer and yell at the umpire, show her a different side. After the baseball game, go to a brew pub.

Trust me, I've made every mistake you're doing -- all while thinking my intentions were great. Women want a little more edgy dates.

 

[Vulpine]

For the past three weeks I've been spinning 3 to 6 plates at a time, dating a load of women. My schedule is jammed full, almost beyond my capacity to manage it. Unfortunately, I'm getting friendzoned a lot.

The missing piece is... (drumroll)

An interested woman.


Some people just aren't interested. Next. Don't take it personal and don't read too much into it. (Sure, you can attempt to build interest if you want. But, don't beat yourself up if the interest doesn't increase.)

Do things that YOU want to do on dates. Don't go on dates to "impress" or anything else besides please yourself. If the chick is interested in you, she'll want to be with you regardless of what it is you're doing.

Relax. It's not necessarily your "game" that's faulty.

This should smooth it out for you:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39729

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

The missing piece is... (drumroll)

An interested woman...

Very good call! MisterAl, how do you go about qualifying these women? Are you just going out with them because they want to go out? Don't get me wrong, it's good to hear that a guy has a full schedule with a good rotation, but if these women aren't fitting into what you are looking for you're basically wasting your time.

 

[ER!C L!VE]

Typically I start off with a first date of ice cream and mini-golf at the local dairy (a famous one). Next date, if I get one, is usually a week later, a walk somewhere touristy on the water and some drinks..

Man, get those girls back to your pad ASAP. Screw all that other stuff - maybe do that after you bang them? I dunno.. I don't do any of that type of chit, unless she begs me to go.

I screen them with the back to my house test and kiss test first, then progress from there. I don't waste time on 'dates' (unless I know in advance she's down with putting out quick eg. a girl I've met on the web and had phone sex with).

Here's how I do it. Let the girl know you wanna hang out. Tell her to meet you at your place and you'll go from there. She'll come over, you hug, sit her down, talk and make her comfy, maybe some booze for her to loose up, then when the convo is good and/or you're talking about sex, just plant a kiss on her. Watch her reaction from there. If she's loving it, you're good. If she looks at you like you just killed her cat, then you know she's not really down with your program. You turn on the light, watch tv and your date will usually start yawning and go home within an hour after that.


Hope this helps, man.

 

[Tom Juan]

What's wrong with complimenting? Politeness is the missing key from your game.

 

[MisterAl]

I'm qualifying them as I date them, but I date only the ones I have some initial interest in. This comes from having met them in person or after exchanging some emails.

Half of them come from singles events like 8minutedating. Sometimes I meet them by approaching, and the rest come from online sources, but not Match or Yahoo. I'm done wasting my time with that.

I just re-read the Anti-Dump's Machine thread. I relate to it, but isn't it really just "be yourself" which is crap? I put a lot of effort into bettering myself, including looks, personality and self-esteem. I recognize this as key to attracting women. I keep focus on the ILs of the women I'm seeing. I don't bother trying to influence it with games because I haven't got time to worry about it or see anyone more than once a week. This in itself should be attractive.

I do have a chick that seems to have much higher IL than the others. Her phone behavior irritates me but is consistently bad (I'm waiting for her call back, again). My Reality Factor was initially thrown by this but she's consistently had other high IL behaviors. I hope to see her again Sunday. I see other women because I like the attention and it gets my mind off of the potential oneitis.

I wish it was as simple as just, "come on over to my place and talk about sex" on the first date. I'd do it if it would work. Most of the time I can't even pick them up at their house! It goes like this most of the time:

Al: "We'll go to Richardson's on Wednesday. I'll pick you up at 7:30. Where do you live?"
Her: "No, we should meet there."
Al: "It's ten miles away, I'll pick you up."
Her: "No, we'll meet there."

I figure there's a part of my early game that's already broken if they don't even want me to pick them up at their door. Getting them to my place? Yeah, right. That takes three or four dates.

I'm MisterPolite too. I'm all about chivalry and manners. I might just be a little too polite. But I do not compliment. Please don't get me wrong on this.

Maybe I need a new first date idea. What's "edgy?" I've done this ice cream thing so many times I feel like I'm in Groundhog Day where Bill Murray is rushing through all the same lines because he's lived it over and over again while trying to work out the puzzle. I think the cashiers are starting to recognize me. "Who is this guy that comes here like twice a week with a different chick? WTF?"

I want to understand the anti-date. Getting a chick to hang out and just fool around without the bull****. It happened a few months ago. Chatted online, then a few hours later I drove into the city to meet her at a bar that evening. She was 21 (I'm 32) and pretty hot. We went to her apartment and we fooled around. While it was fun it was neurotic and a little twisted. I only saw her once again. I wouldn't be able to recreate that because I don't know what I did right to twist what sad insecurities she had to cause her to do that. She just wanted some fun.

 

[resilient]

I've done this ice cream thing so many times I feel like I'm in Groundhog Day where Bill Murray is rushing through all the same lines because he's lived it over and over again while trying to work out the puzzle. I think the cashiers are starting to recognize me. "Who is this guy that comes here like twice a week with a different chick? WTF?"

:crackup:LOL!!

 

[Vulpine]

Al: "We'll go to Richardson's on Wednesday. I'll pick you up at 7:30. Where do you live?"
Her: "No, we should meet there."
Al: "It's ten miles away, I'll pick you up."
Her: "No, we'll meet there."

You should come to expect that from women met through "online sources". In the case of those, they aren't even "first dates", they are "approaches". All the online interaction essentially goes out the window and it's a cold approach attraction wise. You aren't getting those chicks back to your place on the first meeting (unless...). With all the internet dating horror stories flying around, it's pretty much the norm for a woman met online to be "cautious".

If you are treating those meetings as "first dates", that is the missing piece in your game. Those initial encounters shouldn't last more than 20-40 mintutes. Anything longer, and you are being creepy and probably come off as desperate. How's that? You don't even know if you like these women, and vice versa. So, you hang out through a round of mini-golf and an ice cream with a stranger? Waaay to heavy and too much pressure too soon.

I think some of this first meeting pressure/expectation has helped to turn a lot of guys here against internet dating. I also firmly believe that those "cautious" women have issues with men.

But, you say you have other sources? Have those dates went better?

I have an idea for you: don't plan out the dates. If she doesn't agree to let you pick her up, meet up somewhere and go about it like an insta-date. Set it up something like "I'll tell you what then, let's meet up somewhere so you can see I'm not some sort of freak, and we'll make plans from there." Just making plans with the woman on the spot makes for good rapport building as well as relating common interests and likes/dislikes. Have a couple of things ready to offer as options.

This approach can be altered for picking up women at their place also. I'll have 2 or 3 options for the evening, but I'll lead off the options with "back to my place". If that doesn't fly, then present options 2 or 3. If she doesn't agree to do either of those, then ask her to get out of your car.

The first dates are better kept light. Save the formal dress dinner dates for 3rd or 4th. I know the "lack of plans" thing goes against some popular ideas around here, but give it a try just for the sake of doing something different.

 

[ER!C L!VE]

I wish it was as simple as just, "come on over to my place and talk about sex" on the first date. I'd do it if it would work.

You don't say, "...and talk about sex" lol

Say something like, "Let's meet at my place and we'll go from there" if she say's no, then meet her at a public place, talk, get comfy, then suggest that you go back to your place. If she says no again, then usually she's not interested and you should end the date and place her on the way back burner.

Most of the time I can't even pick them up at their house!

I rarely ever pick girls up at their house. The ones who I picked up at their house never turned into anything.

I've found the best way to meet up somewhere then suggest going to your place. "hey I live just down the street, you up for hanging out?" *said confidently & friendly and as if she'll say yes - not in a stammering hemming and hawing way* Like you'd ask a friend over to see your place b/c they've never seen it. When you get her there, make out with her or bang her. Either way get sexual to some degree or come across as "mr. nice guy"

It goes like this most of the time:
Al: "We'll go to Richardson's on Wednesday. I'll pick you up at 7:30. Where do you live?"
Her: "No, we should meet there."
Al: "It's ten miles away, I'll pick you up."
Her: "No, we'll meet there."

She doesn't want to get roped into anything solid. They seem to hate that. Instead, say you'll meet up with her on Wednesday evening. call her around 5. If she's down she'll answer her phone and meet you somewhere. If not, she'll find some BS excuse and you won't meet that night. No biggie - maybe she'll call you and ask to meet up another day. Chicks flake. Alot. Just act like it doesn't phase you, then put her on the backburner until she decides she wants to meet up. With practice, you get it.

I figure there's a part of my early game that's already broken if they don't even want me to pick them up at their door. Getting them to my place? Yeah, right. That takes three or four dates.

Naw, not all girls like being picked up. Most hooks ups I've had are where the girls come to my place.

I'm MisterPolite too. I'm all about chivalry and manners. I might just be a little too polite. But I do not compliment. Please don't get me wrong on this.

Do you have any player guy friends who can show you what you're doing wrong? Maybe you can watch them and copy their mannerisms.

Maybe I need a new first date idea. What's "edgy?" I've done this ice cream thing so many times I feel like I'm in Groundhog Day

Yea, so fix your date plan. Fcuk the ice cream and get the b!tch to your place, fast. The most I'll do is take a b!tch to Dairy Queen, get her a blizzard and it's off to my place to "hang out". Get it?

Man, I was like you. I did everything I saw the guys do in the movies for a date and none of it worked. I don't know any player guys who really go on "dates". They tell me the less they spend on a girl the more likely she is to put out. Maybe you should just skip the dinner and have her meet at your place. Guage her interest and go from there.

**get them to your place to guage interest. If none is there, end the date quickly and watch some internet porn or something lol.

 

[MisterAl]

Thanks, good ideas. Agreed about the internet dating pressures.

Just to clarify, I have only one internet chick right now and I'll see her for a third date next week. No problems with her. Everyone else, including my high IL chick and my friendzone chicks, came from in-person meetings like 8minute and cold approaches at bars. I met them before the first dates.

I have yet another ice cream first date tonight. Moo.

 

[Vulpine]

Right on, Er!c.

What we are both getting at is, if you play the "set up a date" game, you are setting yourself up to fail - you are playing the women's game. Frame it as hanging out. That way, there are no expectations, there is no pressure, and the door is open for fun.

That's the essence of the "anti-date". No plans. No fancy schmancy restaurants. Just plain being around the other person and vibing. Once you get that vibe reading, and it's good, then you can get silly with the mini-golf or skee-ball.

 

[MisterAl]

Er!c, good stuff. I expect to have Miss High IL over at
my place Sunday after a hike, we'll see.

I don't have a flake out problem right now. I usually set up a time and place about a week ahead of time and then don't call her again at all. Just show up at the agreed time and place. Why invite the chance for a flake out by calling to confirm?

The internet chick is a hang-out girl though. I'm going to blow it with her with this dating sh!t. I actually told her a couple days ago that I'm so busy right now that if I don't put you in for next Tuesday then we'll miss out. She said OK and we'll hang out then. She had told me before that she doesn't plan ahead for anything. His eyes, they open.

No player friends, unfortunately. I do go out sometimes with an edgy, loud Italian guy who tells me to "do, not think" all the time.

 

[NewMan]

Many good points here. I'm just going to throw some things out to add to the mix - if I've repeasted something - sorry.

- 'Canned' dates are not the way to go. What I mean is, they can just be to smooth - almost like you do this all the time - red flag right there. Sure, have a few ideas ready but don't repeat the same date all the time. To smooth, to easy, to creapy.

- non alcohol dates should be done after you've seen her naked. That should be the rule you live by.

- first time meeting - no. 1 priority should be to get her to the bar. Tell her let's meet for drinks - it's the way to go for a number of reasons - but you want to get her relaxed and comfortable. Meeting at a bar is the best way you do this. You can play darts, pool, some bars have video games - you can also go bowling (most have bars if not all) - but the deal is to go get some drinks and then see what happens. Your more likely to back to het place after she's had some drinks in her.

- Personally I don't like women coming to my place. I don't know her that well - and she could turn into miss Physco. I usually pick a place close to hers - and aim at getting back to her place. I don't want her turning up at 2AM one Friday night out of the blue - never happened to me personally, but I've had friends that this has happened to.

 

[MaddXMan]

Yup, I agree 100% with above. My interactions with women have mostly been too rote, too traditional.....boring. I want to fukkin blow that paradigm out of the water. I have a first date this Friday night, I told her we are going to meet up at this pub, split an appetizer, then go bar hopping at this fun nightclub district - she said that sounds great!

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Thanks, good ideas. Agreed about the internet dating pressures.

Just to clarify, I have only one internet chick right now and I'll see her for a third date next week. No problems with her. Everyone else, including my high IL chick and my friendzone chicks, came from in-person meetings like 8minute and cold approaches at bars. I met them before the first dates.

I have yet another ice cream first date tonight. Moo.

I don't get it with you guys and meeting (or not meeting) women from the net. No, actually I think I do. The one thing that is common through all these threads about either not being able to move things forward with women or qualifying issues is the lack of rapport. Specifically, the lack of sexual rapport (women call it "chemistry").

Here's an example. Last weekend I spent my time with a woman I met on the net. It was our first date and it lasted until almost AM because we had "chemistry." Out face to face meeting started with me coming up behind her and spinning her around with my hands around her waist. She looks at me and says "Hi" with a huge grin. I put my fingers on the side of her cheek, pull her close and give her a kiss on the corner of her mouth. Chemistry, right from the get go.

The key to getting to that point is to make her feel familiar with you even if you've just met. Act as if you're old friends, that you've known each other for years. Not only does that ease the nervousness but it's a great way to use kino to its full extent.

Let's put a new twist on the old saying "Familiarity breeds contempt" and change it to "Familiarity breeds consent!" By the way, I ended up spending the night at her house two nights in a row.

 

[Phyzzle]

Originally Posted by MisterAl
I think the cashiers are starting to recognize me. "Who is this guy that comes here like twice a week with a different chick? WTF?"

DUDE! Are any of those cashiers hot? THERE'S YOUR ANSWER!

They've gotta be goin' nuts by now!!! "WTF does that guy have?""

But seriously, Doc Love calls this the Mini-date. Invite her to coffee, half hour tops. Starbucks is freakin huge for a reason. The 1st date should be a Mini-date (chat).

If you really seem to hit it off at the cafe, "are you hungry? we can grab some famous ice cream, thai food, (whatever)."

 

[john_1234]

i know you mentioned posture, but how much emphasis do you place on body language and especially voice tone? how well do you keep your cool/composure? for me, these were missing pieces that i overlooked for some time. david d. once said that everything would be ten times easier if you get body language/voice improved. from my personal experiences, i agree 100% w/ him. while you're chatting on the phone w/ a friend/chick/whoevers, videotape yourself. i discovered so much about myself when i did this and i was aware of what to work on

 

[MisterAl]

$Fd: I used to be huge into internet dating. I got a lot of dates and met a girlfriend doing it. Something's changed for the worse about it lately so I don't bother with the formal pay sites anymore. That doesn't stop me from chatting online or using craigslist to my advantage.

Voice tone and body language is something I must work on constantly. I don't have a problem with composure but I used to slouch forward when I walked. I make the effort now to straighten out and lean back which looks better. I also lean back now while sitting instead of leaning forward. Unfortunately my hearing isn't very good so I often have to lean forward to hear what she's saying. It's awful and can't figure a way around it in noisy bars.

My voice needs work. I have no resonance. When I lean back and relax I can get some resonance but my voice is weak and wears out quickly during conversation so that it gets dry and raspy. It's not horrible or squeaky, just average. I usually sound great on the phone when I just relax, sit straight up and speak slowly. I wish I knew how to reliably create vocal resonance. I've always been jealous of people who could get their voices to carry or sound loud. I actually have to preserve and rest my voice before dates so it sounds better for conversation. My voice is still all worn out from last night.

Last night was OK and fun. Nice woman who I'll go out with again. No kiss though, IL can't be very high. She was clueless about how to play mini-golf so I had to show her a few times how to putt. Good kino opportunities for standing behind her and wrapping my arms around her to adjust her hips and her legs and arms. She seemed to enjoy it. She kept telling me how much she liked the mini-golf idea. She was really into the flowery scenery, a very visual woman.

Rapport is easy. Chemistry is not. I feel like it's too easy to get friendly and end up "friends." $Fd, I'm interested in your opener. I've never snuck up behind a date like that. Usually I approach them from the front and as we meet I hold out my right hand for a handshake. I say, "how are you?" As we grasp I gently pull us together and give her a peck on the right cheek, possibly with my left hand on her shoulder. She'll usually follow my lead and do the exact same thing. It's friendly and physical and real easy to do. I'm not saying it's gotten me anywhere other than more dates but it seems to create rapport.

 

[d9930380]

ER!C L!VE - Is right on the money, You're not looking to **** her. You're looking to be her friend. That's why you're putting yourself in the zone.

You said it all when you had cause to say "I read the bible". Your morality is stopping you from using them for sex, you want to get to know them first before you get physical - Today's women will see this as being nice and boring. Get over it and remember that a date isn't just about getting to know them but also about getting them into bed. If she refuses, that's OK, she will like the fact you have tried. It shows you're a man. She might make YOU wait but you should never make HER wait. Don't be sleazy or overly obvious - just a few hints here and there. Be more sexual.