Men should be even more aware of their age than women

[HaleyBaron]

Neither side really wants to be around the other. Serial monogamist men can be invited to some couples stuff with married and long term couples. That's a best case scenario. Unattached men find gatherings where it's all couples to be very uncomfortable and the couples don't really want the unattached men around in most cases either.

What happens if you're around a group with open relationships however? That one is probably an outlier. Very interesting dynamics then. From personal experience.

 

[Stanley]

I think OP makes a couple of wrong assumptions:
1. that guys purposefully avoid a serious relationship up until their mid 30s. I don't think that's true for most cases, certainly not for me. Firstly, masculinity is about going out and exploring the world, gaining experience, accumulate resources, become a leader. Secondly, some guys do find a good girl in high-school or college. But for the many that don't it's a combination of lack of good girls with their lack of interest in settling down (which is natural).

2. that guys reach their mid 30s, have explored and conquered the world and now that they are ready to get married, they're too dumb to differentiate between true love and transactional arrangement. I don't think that's true in the majority of cases....they're aware of what's going on, but will just settle for mediocrity, just as many who marry in their 20s do...they don't do it out of true love but because of pressure from family/social circle or fear they won't find anyone better.

This. At 25 my priorities are elsewhere, I have no interest in tying myself to someone when I want to explore all my options and life paths. I am actively avoiding committed relationships and have only considered them when I find a girl worth pursuing and putting a effort into. If they come along at the right time and right place, cool. If they don't? Oh well

 

[bat soup]

If I'm going to put money in, i'd prefer a wet hole.

 

[DreamAgain]

I think OP makes a couple of wrong assumptions:
1. that guys purposefully avoid a serious relationship up until their mid 30s. I don't think that's true for most cases, certainly not for me. Firstly, masculinity is about going out and exploring the world, gaining experience, accumulate resources, become a leader. Secondly, some guys do find a good girl in high-school or college. But for the many that don't it's a combination of lack of good girls with their lack of interest in settling down (which is natural).

2. that guys reach their mid 30s, have explored and conquered the world and now that they are ready to get married, they're too dumb to differentiate between true love and transactional arrangement. I don't think that's true in the majority of cases....they're aware of what's going on, but will just settle for mediocrity, just as many who marry in their 20s do...they don't do it out of true love but because of pressure from family/social circle or fear they won't find anyone better.

I'm confused regarding point (1).

If guys do not purposely avoid serious relationships until their mid 30s, how can it also be true that they don't have interest in settling down earlier when they are younger?

Further, if you had a good enough girl that met your criteria for settling down, what would your reason be for not settling down with her and playing the field? Thinking you can do better? That is a valid enough reason if the pool of candidates was good enough to be so picky. Unfortunately it is not and I think a lot of guys are aware of this. I think still most guys think they would rather plate girls and try as many as possible before settling down, thus purposely avoiding serious relationships.

Only low value men or men who look bad will be quick to lock down a girl, because they don't have other options.

My point still stands that good looking men and men with more options have less options than they think for serious relationships, and should capitalize on the few chances they have to grab a good one before she is off the market.

Further though, many beta men are perfectly happy with transactional relationships because that is all they can get in today's market.

 

[Kotaix]

There is a lot of dialogue propagated out there that guys should use their twenties to accumulate resources, develop their careers, date around, basically postpone looking for a serious relationship until their 30s.

I want to dispel this as a dangerous and outright wrong idea if you are serious about finding a good wife and future mother of your children.

Simply put, the longer you wait to find a good woman, the chances are lower you will find one, simply because there aren't too many around. So, you may counter with the point: But DreamAgain, I'll just date younger, with more resources vs. the younger guys I'm at a competitive advantage, my SMV is higher, what is the problem with this?

The problem with this is precisely because the relationship becomes transactional: You are dangling the carrot of resources to a younger woman, and she is trading her youthful best years to secure those resources.

This is quite different from any notion of love and romanticism one should hopefully believe if they are choosing a woman to be his wife and mother of his children. Quite different from a plate, yes your 30s are an ideal time for acquiring plates, perhaps that is the whole purpose of this website and this post will fall on deaf ears.

The ideal time you should look for a wife is actually right around college or immediately after, 1-3 years as you start your professional career.

Here, you are still providing the hope of being a successful provider for the family, assuming you are well employed, have good grades with a promising chosen major. However, the onus is on the girl to take a leap of faith and believe you will have the sufficient resources down the road to do it. Because she cannot be sure of this, she still has to stake the majority of her decision to be with you on more fundamental parts of attraction: Does she like how you look, does she find you funny, does she enjoy your company, etc. This is the most natural way that bonding happens and the most healthy as well. I also argue it will bring you the most happiness, because you know most genuinely the girl likes you, well, for you.

In essence, the longer you postpone your decision to settle down and pick the "winner" so to speak, the smaller your pool of earnest candidates is you can trust, and of those earnest candidates, they are even smaller for girls that are actually worth choosing for the long haul.

How foolish would a man feel, toiling all these years, enduring crap in the workplace, studying so hard, only to give these resources away to a girl who tricked him into his affection?

Sure, detractors may say well never get married, never have kids.

I fundamentally believe a wife and family play an integral part in a man's life, and finding fulfillment professionally and through hobbies can only take his happiness so far. The same with plates. They will provide temporary physical pleasure but can never replace the love of a loyal wife and seeing your children flourish in the world.

This is exactly why I think flaunting resources or wealth is one of the worst things a guy can do when looking for a wife. It's fine to snag hoes, but very dangerous if she sticks around and starts to pretend that she loves you. The father of one of my closest friends ended up swearing that a gold digging wh0re (a literal escort that he hired), loved him , and he was about to sign off most of he considerable fortune over to her, my friend and his brothers had to intervene legally because there was no talking their dad out of his delusion.

As long as you don't divulge your net worth, you should be ok to trust a woman if you live in a minimalist fashion.

Also, most guys who appear to have wealth are actually financing most of their extravagant penis extensions, so when an unscrupulous woman latches her fangs into him, he's doubly fvcked.

 

[Thebestthereeveris]

There is a lot of dialogue propagated out there that guys should use their twenties to accumulate resources, develop their careers, date around, basically postpone looking for a serious relationship until their 30s.

I want to dispel this as a dangerous and outright wrong idea if you are serious about finding a good wife and future mother of your children.

Simply put, the longer you wait to find a good woman, the chances are lower you will find one, simply because there aren't too many around. So, you may counter with the point: But DreamAgain, I'll just date younger, with more resources vs. the younger guys I'm at a competitive advantage, my SMV is higher, what is the problem with this?

The problem with this is precisely because the relationship becomes transactional: You are dangling the carrot of resources to a younger woman, and she is trading her youthful best years to secure those resources.

This is quite different from any notion of love and romanticism one should hopefully believe if they are choosing a woman to be his wife and mother of his children. Quite different from a plate, yes your 30s are an ideal time for acquiring plates, perhaps that is the whole purpose of this website and this post will fall on deaf ears.

The ideal time you should look for a wife is actually right around college or immediately after, 1-3 years as you start your professional career.

Here, you are still providing the hope of being a successful provider for the family, assuming you are well employed, have good grades with a promising chosen major. However, the onus is on the girl to take a leap of faith and believe you will have the sufficient resources down the road to do it. Because she cannot be sure of this, she still has to stake the majority of her decision to be with you on more fundamental parts of attraction: Does she like how you look, does she find you funny, does she enjoy your company, etc. This is the most natural way that bonding happens and the most healthy as well. I also argue it will bring you the most happiness, because you know most genuinely the girl likes you, well, for you.

In essence, the longer you postpone your decision to settle down and pick the "winner" so to speak, the smaller your pool of earnest candidates is you can trust, and of those earnest candidates, they are even smaller for girls that are actually worth choosing for the long haul.

How foolish would a man feel, toiling all these years, enduring crap in the workplace, studying so hard, only to give these resources away to a girl who tricked him into his affection?

Sure, detractors may say well never get married, never have kids.

I fundamentally believe a wife and family play an integral part in a man's life, and finding fulfillment professionally and through hobbies can only take his happiness so far. The same with plates. They will provide temporary physical pleasure but can never replace the love of a loyal wife and seeing your children flourish in the world.

i think most dudes in redpill get happy withh the saying mens value rise as they age as womens value decline and yes its true but if you dont put in the work youll still be ass lmao

 

[DreamAgain]

i think most dudes in redpill get happy withh the saying mens value rise as they age as womens value decline and yes its true but if you dont put in the work youll still be ass lmao

It's a convenient line of thinking for red pill marketing.

Red pill "gurus" are pointless because all guys should be improving themselves as much as they can anyway. Putting a label to that and calling it a "movement" or an ideology or whatever is stupid.

But nevertheless, it is useful for pumping and dumping women I will admit that. You will attract hotter women for short term relationships, and more of them.

Guys like that alpha male strategies guy are overt about it. You sell the girl a dream (commitment with a man with a lot of resources), bang her, and at some point toss her to the side of the road when she is no longer useful to you.

 

[SW15]

Neither side really wants to be around the other. Serial monogamist men can be invited to some couples stuff with married and long term couples. That's a best case scenario. Unattached men find gatherings where it's all couples to be very uncomfortable and the couples don't really want the unattached men around in most cases either.

What happens if you're around a group with open relationships however? That one is probably an outlier. Very interesting dynamics then. From personal experience.

I don't have any personal experience with open relationship or swinger couples.

I would think swinger couples would want to swing with other swinger couples. That's what tends to happen in swinger clubs.

 

[HaleyBaron]

I don't have any personal experience with open relationship or swinger couples.

I would think swinger couples would want to swing with other swinger couples. That's what tends to happen in swinger clubs.

Well I can tell you from at least my experience, the women are usually down to f*ck. And some of the men are fine with it. Some of them are not.

 

[Jake_Gyllenhaal69]

I don't have any personal experience with open relationship or swinger couples.

I would think swinger couples would want to swing with other swinger couples. That's what tends to happen in swinger clubs.

They do because it’s less of a liability since both parties are putting skin in the game. A single desperate guy has a lot less to lose and can potentially wreck up the whole thing. Plus, the married guy loses the most in the exchange. I think most women especially in the swingers club are open to hooking up with other women.

 

[SW15]

They do because it’s less of a liability since both parties are putting skin in the game. A single desperate guy has a lot less to lose and can potentially wreck up the whole thing. Plus, the married guy loses the most in the exchange. I think most women especially in the swingers club are open to hooking up with other women.

Swinging and open relationships are not the same.

The swingers club environment is a subset of swinging. At swingers clubs, no one wants unattached men but unattached women are desired.

There can be couples in open relationships who don't actively swing with other couples but pursue relationships. Open relationship, non-swinging women might be interested in an unattached male.

 

[patb]

Men deteriorate relatively less than women with age. In absolute terms, in this toxic pit of a dating market, they'll still almost always come out ahead.

 

[CyrusTheGreat]

@DreamAgain you've got a point here. As you grow older, it gets harder to find attractive women who like you more because of you instead of you money, status, etc.

But one thing you seem to be oblivious of is that most men who are single post 30 haven't chosen to be so. Most single men I know, myself included, have been thrown to the curb like a piece of trash in their teens and twenties by women they were dating. They have learned through experience that they are disposable and will not receive respect or any semi-consistent love unless they become something. It's not the red pill or society telling men to be like this.

 

[patb]

@DreamAgain you've got a point here. As you grow older, it gets harder to find attractive women who like you more because of you instead of you money, status, etc.

But one thing you seem to be oblivious of is that most men who are single post 30 haven't chosen to be so. Most single men I know, myself included, have been thrown to the curb like a piece of trash in their teens and twenties by women they were dating. They have learned through experience that they are disposable and will not receive respect or any semi-consistent love unless they become something. It's not the red pill or society telling men to be like this.

The red pill is obviously a reaction to this experience rather than the cause of it. It's similar to how women/simps will accuse you of being single because you're "bitter," rather than, idk, the other way around. Society loves to self-servingly reverse the arrow of causation. It makes them feel very righteous, or something.

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

Really it comes down to a value equation. What do you value for your life?

Some men value pleasure & solitude, those men are perhaps better suited to STRs and plates and cycling through women.

Here’s the eventual problem. You get old. You don’t have the looks or the energy any more. And that solitude devolves into loneliness in many cases.

Case in point. Sixty year old ex pro hockey player I know. Ruggedly handsome, millionaire etc. who owns his own global company.

He’s got no tribe. No family still alive, no wife, no kids or grand kids. He looks around and sees his friends surrounded by family, by a legacy; by intimate partners who love them & have built a life together. He has immense regret now (his words) that he chased fame & money & women instead, but he was like Haley when he was young & hot & sought after.

Now he yearns for something, someone real. Real is scarce at his age. He wants a companion, someone to share life with. He’s inherently selfish, he knows that, and wonders if he is companion material. He’s done all the flashy crap & is over it.

And what do most of the women he meets want? Yup. The flashy crap. But he had it going on in his youth, but his youth is gone.

Men who value partnership and family earlier in life don’t end up in the same place.

My son is almost 21. Handsome, fit, stylish & great with people. Good grades and on a trajectory toward a successful life. He will probably propose to his GF of 4 years when he graduates college next spring. He has buddies doing the player thing. His father owned a nightclub. He’s seen flashy all his life. He is over it. Flashy and pleasure are not what he values. He values family. His girl is loyal. Cute, not hot, but she loves him & I expect will be a solid partner for him. My fiancé thinks my son can get a hotter girl…he can I’m sure. Ok then what? Is the hotter girl a better potential life partner?

And it all come back to what your values are. Values drive choices. The problem comes when your values change but the choices are no longer there.

Things to consider for sure.

 

[jaymbrs]

There have been times when I look back and think "I should've stuck with Kelley or Amanda, or Alicia". But I would’ve had to give up a lot then to keep them. Looking back I wouldn't trade it. I may be unmarried and kidless at 36, but I've built a foundation for myself that will make it easier for me to raise a kid. My friends who married in their 20s are ALL struggling with money issues, time and lack of good careers. Some are also greying and losing their hair. They're also not getting out experiencing things. Moral of this is you can't have your cake and eat it too. At least not the middle to low classes.

 

[patb]

Droll of you to think most of us had a choice in the matter. Personally, I regret not chasing fame and money. I chased "meaning" and "heritage," and what did it get me? I could be retired in SE Asia by now

 

[forcerecon01]

There have been times when I look back and think "I should've stuck with Kelley or Amanda, or Alicia". But I had to give up a lot that I don't have right now. Looking back I wouldn't trade it. I may be unmarried and kidless at 36, but I've built a foundation for myself that will make it easier for me to raise a kid. My friends who married in their 20s are ALL struggling with money issues, time and lack of good careers. They're also not getting out experiencing things. Moral of this is you can't have your cake and eat it too. At least not the middle to low classes.

Good observation

 

[BeExcellent]

Not everyone has the same choices in life. That is true. I find it rather poignant that a handsome ex pro athlete who is also a successful businessman laments exactly the thing that @DreamAgain says in his OP.

And look, having values is harder when you have wealth and fame & fortune. Sure. But in the end my friend is still human and really wishes he had a human connection and a great relationship.

So it’s not a show off thread to be jealous that you don’t have the same opportunities around fame etc. Fame has an underbelly that isn’t so great.

It’s about the truth posted by OP.

Your life will reflect your values, whatever those are. The red pill versus blue pill mantras are just talking points from differing ways of living and both can be applied in the context of your value system. My son, who values family, has quite a red pill approach, for example.

 

[Stanley]

Everyone is different and leads a different life, but I feel this 100%

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