Male Orbiters: To Keep or Eliminate

[Desdinova]

This is such a debatable topic, but the subject of orbiters comes up quite frequently. Orbiters will never going away as long as a woman has value. In the dating world, we will always have to deal with them either in vast quantities, or one at a time.

Male orbiters are a double-edged sword. It is against our nature to allow the woman to keep male orbiters. Men are naturally protective of their investments, and a woman certainly qualifies as one. A lot of guys will view male orbiters as a "threat" or as a woman's backburner prospects. We have two options when it comes to orbiters:

1) Make the girl get rid of the orbiter(s).

This immediately satisfies our need to protect our investment. There's three problems with this scenario. First, it's unacceptable socially. If she's forced to get rid of the orbiter, then it becomes an issue of "trust", "control" and "the sex of the friend should be irrelevant in the name of true equality!" She will get feeback like this from her friends and family.

The second problem with doing this is we appear insecure and less confident. Secure, confident men are attractive, and we can effectively give our power to the orbiter if he KNOWS he's pissing us off.

The third problem with eliminating the orbiter is his value will go up. In the sense of female attraction, male friends are low value and women will not fvck their friends. Once you eliminate the orbiter as a friend, he becomes a potential prospect. Women naturally want what they can't have. When she comes into contact with this male friend a year later, he is now a prospect. But he's not just any prospect, he's got value. Her emotions will quickly jump to the positive end of the scale when she quickly reconnects with him. Women react to and analyze their emotional transitions. Suddenly, she's thinking about him a lot. When a woman's constantly thinking about a man, she becomes attracted. He has now become higher value than YOU.

2) Befriend the orbiter(s)

There's two potential outcomes here. First, you can end up with a really good friend. There's no problem here because she's fvcking YOU and you have gained respect from this guy, both as a friend and as a couple.

The second outcome is the orbiter becomes jealous. He begins acting insecure and attempts to protect his investment in her, even though he's not fvcking her. Insecurity is unattractive and annoying to the woman, and this will cause her to eventually dismiss the orbiter as a friend. This in turn raises our value and assures her she's with the correct man. When she runs into him a year later, he will ask "So, are you still with HIM?" The jealousy never goes away, and she will be reminded of how insecure he was. His value will remain low and she will not wish to pursue him as a prospect.

 

[dasein]

Problem with 2 is that I already have my quota of AFC friends. I don't want to befriend more men who hang around in the orbiter role, but get rid of more of the ones I have now. I find that these types of men are generally not running their lives in the way I want to run mine and have more bad habits and attitudes than just the orbiter thing. Maybe it's just bad luck, but women I've dated tend to have really really weak male friends.

As far as 1 goes, for me it's part of the tradeoff for my exclusivity. It's really easy to tell real opposite sex friends from attention supply orbiters, and the latter all have to go or it's not time to be in an exclusive relationship. Real friends are NEVER recent exes, can be "ancient" exes (at least 5 years ago, preferably 10... with no reunions in the interim), have never been FWBs, never just guys who do nothing but drink and socialize with her, never just guys who are making all the effort and doing everything in the relationship, never "work husband" type deals. If she wants that, then we aren't exclusive.

If the favors of friendship run both ways and relatively equal, he's probably an actual friend, as in she does solid favors for him too. If they grew up, went to HS or college together and never got romantically involved, he's probably a real friend. If they have a history of being involved in each others' day to day lives, not just night, parties or social life, he's probably a real friend. Anyway, you get the picture. Real friends can stay. All others -must- go -right now- if they want me to commit to exclusivity, and the presumption is always against any guy in her life other than family being a real friend, but rather an orbiter/attention supply until proven otherwise.

The first time that text buzz wakes you up in the middle of the night, you ask "what's that?" and she's like "oh just a friend seeing what I'm up to." 99% chance that's not a -real friend-. The second time it happens, we aren't exclusive any more. I make sure to explain this very very clearly on the front end.

 

[Desdinova]

Good points all around.

I view the whole ex-bf turned orbiter/friend as a red flag. There is NO REASON to hold onto an ex unless he's the father of her child. I don't hold onto my ex-gfs, and I don't expect her to either. There's women out there who hold onto their ex because he does favors for her, and we know he's doing it solely because he wants to get back into her vagina. It's disrespectful to you on BOTH their parts. Truly unacceptable.

 

[zekko]

First off, if she's just a regular plate, if she's just a pump and dump, or a FWB, or a FB, or just a casual date, it doesn't matter. She can do what she wants.

But for a more serious girlfriend (or even wife, not that I would ever marry), I prefer a third option. If she insists on hanging on to her orbiters, then I would next her and get a more suitable woman.

Regarding befriending the orbiters, there is no way I am having dinner with some dude my girlfirend brings over. No thanks, not happening. I'll choose my own friends, thanks.

 

[guru1000]

I have dated 500+ women, had roughly 100 plates, 12+ LTRs including one marriage—all HB 7 - 9.5s Most of my plates and no LTRS have had male friends/orbiters that they were in contact with while with me. Granted, I had to sieve through hundreds.

My philosophy is rudimentary: In a male-female dynamic, one party-at one point--has wanted to f*ck the other. Thus, I perceive an exclusive contender’s continued communications with a male orbiter/friend as direct disrespect to me. Thus, no negotiations, no boundaries, no restrictions, no discussions, no compromise, nothing. I’m gone. She has a 0% shot at exclusivity with me. I will keep such a specimen as a plate, but that’s the extent.

For exclusivity, find one with core compatibility traits (a/k/a no male orbiters), and shape the incidentals with boundaries (a/k/a ancillary expectations).

 

[soden]

Problem with 2 is that I already have my quota of AFC friends. I don't want to befriend more men who hang around in the orbiter role, but get rid of more of the ones I have now. I find that these types of men are generally not running their lives in the way I want to run mine and have more bad habits and attitudes than just the orbiter thing. Maybe it's just bad luck, but women I've dated tend to have really really weak male friends.

As far as 1 goes, for me it's part of the tradeoff for my exclusivity. It's really easy to tell real opposite sex friends from attention supply orbiters, and the latter all have to go or it's not time to be in an exclusive relationship. Real friends are NEVER recent exes, can be "ancient" exes (at least 5 years ago, preferably 10... with no reunions in the interim), have never been FWBs, never just guys who do nothing but drink and socialize with her, never just guys who are making all the effort and doing everything in the relationship, never "work husband" type deals. If she wants that, then we aren't exclusive.

If the favors of friendship run both ways and relatively equal, he's probably an actual friend, as in she does solid favors for him too. If they grew up, went to HS or college together and never got romantically involved, he's probably a real friend. If they have a history of being involved in each others' day to day lives, not just night, parties or social life, he's probably a real friend. Anyway, you get the picture. Real friends can stay. All others -must- go -right now- if they want me to commit to exclusivity, and the presumption is always against any guy in her life other than family being a real friend, but rather an orbiter/attention supply until proven otherwise.

The first time that text buzz wakes you up in the middle of the night, you ask "what's that?" and she's like "oh just a friend seeing what I'm up to." 99% chance that's not a -real friend-. The second time it happens, we aren't exclusive any more. I make sure to explain this very very clearly on the front end.

May you please explain to me, how and when you do this?

Lets say she asks for an exlusive relationship and thats fine for you. Its that the moment you start to ask something like "was there something romantic between you and your highschool friend john?" "and whats about jimmy?"

I really share your opinion that all sexual (?) friends have to go as fast as possible, but I don't know how to get the information I need from her about them first and then how to start this conversation...

 

[GS750]

Good points all around.

I view the whole ex-bf turned orbiter/friend as a red flag. There is NO REASON to hold onto an ex unless he's the father of her child. I don't hold onto my ex-gfs, and I don't expect her to either. There's women out there who hold onto their ex because he does favors for her, and we know he's doing it solely because he wants to get back into her vagina. It's disrespectful to you on BOTH their parts. Truly unacceptable.

I always found this to be a HUGE red flag. She's keeping him in her life for a reason and its disrespectful to the guy she's dating.

 

[dasein]

May you please explain to me, how and when you do this?

Lets say she asks for an exlusive relationship and thats fine for you. Its that the moment you start to ask something like "was there something romantic between you and your highschool friend john?" "and whats about jimmy?"

I really share your opinion that all sexual (?) friends have to go as fast as possible, but I don't know how to get the information I need from her about them first and then how to start this conversation...

No specifics like that, but rather get her talking. Make her express her desire for exclusivity in a reasonably direct way with pointed "what exactly are you saying?" type questions. Then, you ask, "OK, what does that mean to you? to be a couple?" Then you sit back and listen, let her go on and on. She may even have some of your same POV (or will pay lip service to it). Do not interrupt her, let her go until she asks you or is plainly done. Feedback from you is "I respect that. Those are important." Then after a pause, here's what I think being a couple is, and then I'll deal with the following:

Overall people change their lives when they are a couple. It is not just an accessory on one's preexisting social life, but a different kind of social life. They do most of their socializing together and socializing becomes much tamer and down to earth. Fewer surprises, some spontaneity is good, but much less flying by the seat of the pants, more planning, putting the other person at the top of priorities. Couples are actively trying to be calm and happy rather than dramatic and in conflict. Couples are sexually exclusive unless being otherwise is their thing, that isn't my thing, and won't be ours if we are a couple because that would mean we aren't compatible. Being exclusive sexually doesn't just include the sex act itself, but applies to all sexual activity other than the lightest, most casual flirting. When people are a couple, they don't have "hangers around" in their lives that they try to pass off as friends, but who are really just drinking/party buddies. Real friends are easy to tell, and couples do have real opposite sex friends, but they aren't "plan bs" or "options."

That's enough to get the gist. You don't just rattle off a script at her, but pause and allow feedback after each part. You don't have a numbered list, or at least I never tried that, seems a bit too much. Be sure to leave yourself a catchall "respect" boundary in there... OVERALL, couples always treat each other with respect. I'm huge on respect, and if you EVER feel disrespected by me or ever feel I'm disrespecting the relationship, I want to hear about it. I promise to be just as clear and open with you. I don't tolerate disrespect that is repeated, and what is disrespectful is mostly a matter of common sense, not legalistic terms. Then also give her outs. "As an experienced man who has been around the block my share, I am a complete and total hardass on these things because I don't like to waste time and energy on things that should be very plain and simple. Are you sure you want to changeup all the fun we are having and try the couple thing? Or should we circle back a piece down the road?" Hoping she says no. When they ask you what you want, tell them you want them, and for the times you've been having to continue.

There's more but that's a start.

 

[soden]

No specifics like that, but rather get her talking. Make her express her desire for exclusivity in a reasonably direct way with pointed "what exactly are you saying?" type questions. Then, you ask, "OK, what does that mean to you? to be a couple?" Then you sit back and listen, let her go on and on. She may even have some of your same POV (or will pay lip service to it). Do not interrupt her, let her go until she asks you or is plainly done. Feedback from you is "I respect that. Those are important." Then after a pause, here's what I think being a couple is, and then I'll deal with the following:

Overall people change their lives when they are a couple. It is not just an accessory on one's preexisting social life, but a different kind of social life. They do most of their socializing together and socializing becomes much tamer and down to earth. Fewer surprises, some spontaneity is good, but much less flying by the seat of the pants, more planning, putting the other person at the top of priorities. Couples are actively trying to be calm and happy rather than dramatic and in conflict. Couples are sexually exclusive unless being otherwise is their thing, that isn't my thing, and won't be ours if we are a couple because that would mean we aren't compatible. Being exclusive sexually doesn't just include the sex act itself, but applies to all sexual activity other than the lightest, most casual flirting. When people are a couple, they don't have "hangers around" in their lives that they try to pass off as friends, but who are really just drinking/party buddies. Real friends are easy to tell, and couples do have real opposite sex friends, but they aren't "plan bs" or "options."

That's enough to get the gist. You don't just rattle off a script at her, but pause and allow feedback after each part. You don't have a numbered list, or at least I never tried that, seems a bit too much. Be sure to leave yourself a catchall "respect" boundary in there... OVERALL, couples always treat each other with respect. I'm huge on respect, and if you EVER feel disrespected by me or ever feel I'm disrespecting the relationship, I want to hear about it. I promise to be just as clear and open with you. I don't tolerate disrespect that is repeated, and what is disrespectful is mostly a matter of common sense, not legalistic terms. Then also give her outs. "As an experienced man who has been around the block my share, I am a complete and total hardass on these things because I don't like to waste time and energy on things that should be very plain and simple. Are you sure you want to changeup all the fun we are having and try the couple thing? Or should we circle back a piece down the road?" Hoping she says no. When they ask you what you want, tell them you want them, and for the times you've been having to continue.

There's more but that's a start.

Thats great. Thank you!

 

[zekko]

The second problem with doing this is we appear insecure and less confident.

Actually, I disagree with this because it depends on your frame. However, if some chick thinks I am insecure, I should care why exactly? I thought SoSuave and seduction theory in general teaches to do what you want to and not care what people think of you. Go for what you want and let the pieces fall where they may.

 

[isasda66]

2) Befriend the orbiter(s)

Didnt want to start a new thread but I have plate/fwb who always hangs out with these 2-3 orbiters of hers. I am friends with these orbiters and hang out with them once ot twice a month.

It seems these orbiters cant get enough of her and they literally call her everyday to chill. Its not like they dont have other friends. Sometimes she calls me to chill with them, I did but then since orbiters ****blocked me by making everyone stay late. I started declining and made it clear to her if she wants to chill with me its gonna be two of us alone.

I remember 1 time when I was over at her place these guys literally went past her place and saw her car and started messaging/calling her to come out for a drive/smoke. Note it was like midnight and she looked at me asking what to do. I smiled and told her she is an adult Im sure she can handle it.

On one hand its amusing that these guys literally have no one else to spend time with and are so available. On the other its frustrating when Im with her and they bombard her phone.

She still tries to get me to chill with them but as I mentioned I dont since they end up at 2am and then she gets tired and I have to get up for work. And since I dont get to fvck it doesnt interest me to stay out that late.

So im curious to know why she still invites me out with them when she got it pretty clear "Only 2 of us alone and not with her orbiters".

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

This is such a debatable topic, but the subject of orbiters comes up quite frequently. Orbiters will never going away as long as a woman has value. In the dating world, we will always have to deal with them either in vast quantities, or one at a time.

Male orbiters are a double-edged sword. It is against our nature to allow the woman to keep male orbiters. Men are naturally protective of their investments, and a woman certainly qualifies as one. A lot of guys will view male orbiters as a "threat" or as a woman's backburner prospects. We have two options when it comes to orbiters:

1) Make the girl get rid of the orbiter(s).

This immediately satisfies our need to protect our investment. There's three problems with this scenario. First, it's unacceptable socially. If she's forced to get rid of the orbiter, then it becomes an issue of "trust", "control" and "the sex of the friend should be irrelevant in the name of true equality!" She will get feeback like this from her friends and family.

The second problem with doing this is we appear insecure and less confident. Secure, confident men are attractive, and we can effectively give our power to the orbiter if he KNOWS he's pissing us off.

The third problem with eliminating the orbiter is his value will go up. In the sense of female attraction, male friends are low value and women will not fvck their friends. Once you eliminate the orbiter as a friend, he becomes a potential prospect. Women naturally want what they can't have. When she comes into contact with this male friend a year later, he is now a prospect. But he's not just any prospect, he's got value. Her emotions will quickly jump to the positive end of the scale when she quickly reconnects with him. Women react to and analyze their emotional transitions. Suddenly, she's thinking about him a lot. When a woman's constantly thinking about a man, she becomes attracted. He has now become higher value than YOU.

2) Befriend the orbiter(s)

There's two potential outcomes here. First, you can end up with a really good friend. There's no problem here because she's fvcking YOU and you have gained respect from this guy, both as a friend and as a couple.

The second outcome is the orbiter becomes jealous. He begins acting insecure and attempts to protect his investment in her, even though he's not fvcking her. Insecurity is unattractive and annoying to the woman, and this will cause her to eventually dismiss the orbiter as a friend. This in turn raises our value and assures her she's with the correct man. When she runs into him a year later, he will ask "So, are you still with HIM?" The jealousy never goes away, and she will be reminded of how insecure he was. His value will remain low and she will not wish to pursue him as a prospect.

If a girl has orbitors, I downgrade to booty call. I take cobra tates approach. Fall in line or **** off. Guy friends means downgrade to booty call. Fwb. Not upgrade to house wife. Guys who tolerate it deserve to get cuckoldry.

 

[Robert28]

If a woman has orbiters what makes you think she won’t make you one? She did it to many other guys, you won’t be different. It’s the reddest of red flags.

 

[AttackFormation]

I choose neither of the options in the OP.

- If someone wants to cheat, they'll find a way to cheat
- For my own mental sake I neither want to live in paranoia over whether someone is cheating, nor exercise totalitarian control to make an alleged "relationship" "work"

So I would ask myself two questions: What does my gut say about her? Do I like the behavior from her that I do know about? If both of those questions have positive answers, I wouldn't occupy my mind with worry, I'd just surf with it. If the answers are negative, then I wouldn't want to stay and try to control someone I don't feel I can trust because that defeats the point of a relationship, I would rather simply leave or demote her. In either case I make two judgements about her but only control myself.

I want to emphasize that this is an approach I take not because I think it will or won't "do something" externally, but purely for my own internal peace of mind's sake. I don't want to spend my life in paranoia and mistrust.

 

[isasda66]

If a girl has orbitors, I downgrade to booty call. I take cobra tates approach. Fall in line or **** off. Guy friends means downgrade to booty call. Fwb. Not upgrade to house wife. Guys who tolerate it deserve to get cuckoldry.

Not too bothered about the orbiters since I dont see this going anywhere. Its just they take up far too much of her time. Currently only 1 other plate.

If a woman has orbiters what makes you think she won’t make you one? She did it to many other guys, you won’t be different. It’s the reddest of red flags.

She can. She tried to but I decline every opportunity to hang out with her and the other orbiters.

I choose neither of the options in the OP.
.....
I want to emphasize that this is an approach I take not because I think it will or won't "do something" externally, but purely for my own internal peace of mind's sake. I don't want to spend my life in paranoia and mistrust.

What gets me is that she spends so much time with those guys that it becomes difficult to schedule something without them disturbing. Especially since my current project is demanding and I only know last minute about my night plans. If I call her she says yeah orbiters also asked me why dont we chill. Or she says to give her an excuse for the orbiters and flakes on them. As I mentioned even when we plan these guys are like vultures hovering around her area or call/text her and she doesnt like to be honest with them.


Just wondering why she continues to want me to chill with them all together when she already knows I prefer being alone with her.

 

[AttackFormation]

Just wondering why she continues to want me to chill with them all together when she already knows I prefer being alone with her.

I can see two reasons off the top of my head:

1) She doesn't take the relationship seriously being so young (I assume she's even younger than you) in the phase of exploring/finding herself/living her best life, and she also feels comfortable having her cake and eating it too so why would she care.

2) She genuinely thinks it's a better idea for you all to hang out together. Maybe she invites you precisely because she doesn't want to make it look like she is hanging out flirting with other guys, but she still wants to interact with other people too, and this is how she solves that issue.

You'll have to decide for yourself, I don't know who she is or what your relationship is like.

 

[isasda66]

Weirdly enough she will double text or other **** for attention. Our last date she initiated and 10 days later before our next one she ask if orbiters can watch abc with us. I told her she can watch it with them since I already saw it and we can meet up another time. She replied party pooper.

My frame is its sexual or no point in meeting. She needs to understand that.

 

[AttackFormation]

Weirdly enough she will double text or other **** for attention. Our last date she initiated and 10 days later before our next one she ask if orbiters can watch abc with us. I told her she can watch it with them since I already saw it and we can meet up another time. She replied party pooper.

My frame is its sexual or no point in meeting. She needs to understand that.

Yeah I went over your first post in this thread now (I didn't read the whole thread the first time). I missed that this girl is a fwb, not a girlfriend. In that case you can disregard my last post, and just keep doing what you're doing now with this post.

 

[zekko]

My philosophy is rudimentary: In a male-female dynamic, one party-at one point--has wanted to f*ck the other.

The only time it might not be true is if they're both hideous

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

Not too bothered about the orbiters since I dont see this going anywhere. Its just they take up far too much of her time. Currently only 1 other plate.


She can. She tried to but I decline every opportunity to hang out with her and the other orbiters.



What gets me is that she spends so much time with those guys that it becomes difficult to schedule something without them disturbing. Especially since my current project is demanding and I only know last minute about my night plans. If I call her she says yeah orbiters also asked me why dont we chill. Or she says to give her an excuse for the orbiters and flakes on them. As I mentioned even when we plan these guys are like vultures hovering around her area or call/text her and she doesnt like to be honest with them.


Just wondering why she continues to want me to chill with them all together when she already knows I prefer being alone with her.

Whether or not it goes is irrelevant. The boundaries are as follows, fall in line or **** off. Men and women are not the same nor able to be friends.