Keep teh Marriage Fresh. Qustions For The Great ROLLO!

[ThunderMaverick]

You see there are two elements to infidelity - an opportunity and a reason. Your opportunity here is obvious, but what's the reason? In my line of work I've had plenty of opportunity to cheat in 11 years, but no reason. My wife satisfies my appetites and is a good companion.

That was a quote from you, Rollo, in another topic. My ears just perked up after reading this. I have a few questions for you.

I'd like to hear you main reasons as to why people cheat during a long term marriage.

How does your wife keep you happy sexually after 11 years?

How do you keep your wife happy?

Has she ever cheated or have you both ever seriously talked about the idea of "swinging"?

I imagine your marriage is very mature, both of you having an excellent sense of reality.

So...how do you keep things...fresh?

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

heheh,..no swinging any time soon,..and no cheating either.

Mrs. Tomassi and I have very mature marriage, but by no means a boring or routine one. I like to think that we're a good match because we both had the benefit of maturing in our 20s prior to getting married and we're accepting of that. It's this experience that made us who we are now.

We're together, yet we have our own identities. This is very important because I see far too many AFCs - especially the most responsible, ethical, dependable ones - utterly lose themselves by this endless effort to identify themselves more with their wives over the course of a marriage. And this is only compounded by the lack of experiecne necessary to develop a strong sense of self needed to be a good Man, husband and father.

I can't give anyone a blueprint for a good marriage, I can only tell you what's worked for me. My marriage is strong because it's effortless. Mrs. Tomassi and I play on the same team and we have common purpose (particularly with our daughter). We're a good fit because we don't have to work at it, we don't need to keep it fresh because it never gets dull. I'm not saying it's a party all the time, but we have the ability to roll with circumstance. People wont believe this, but I've never had a fight with my wife that's lasted longer than half a day. And in 11 years this has happened maybe 3-4 times. This is important to me because in the LTR I was in just prior to meeting my wife I had what amounted to a 4.5 year struggle with an abject BPD woman. This time was spent in the pit of misery for me, however, there are things I learned in that LTR that I knew I could (would) never endure in a marriage.

I knew before I ever met Mrs. Tomassi that I could never be faithful to a woman who was less than what was necessary for my personal satisfaction. Does this sound "shallow" or "selfish"? Yeah, well, come to me after 11 years being married and see if it's not. I know myself, I've seen me do it. I've been the cheater and the cheated in my past. I could not be faithful to a woman who'd let herself go physically or one who would not be sexually available (based on real desire) in the long term. This is firmly established in my marriage. People are inclined to think it's "shallow", but when you're betting your future happiness, and the happiness of any children you'll have, in the long term this is in no way "shallow." For the same amount of effort and as much importance that women place on the characteristics that make a man "marriage material", men need to hold any potential wife up to the absolute highest standard for their own satisfaction.

I've posted on many a thread stating that, other than child rearing, there is no advantage for a man in marriage that he couldn't otherwise get outside of it. He sacrifices all of his potential opportunity by committing to her terms, exclusively for her own security. If this is the trade, and a Man does in fact want to be married in spite of fully understanding this (most men don't or refuse to) then she HAS to meet the highest set of criteria. Far too many children are the result of bait & switch marriages and ultimately spawn the next generation of like minded individuals.

Mrs. Tomassi is no push-over and she most certainly gives me sh!t tests even to this day. In fact I've described marriage as one life long sh!t test and I still hold to that mark, but try to see past this as being a negative. From the begining she's EXPECTED me to be positively masculine - to be the decision maker, to be the initiator, to have the ideas and to confidently execute them. Even in my worst failures, the fact that I attempted was more important than the outcome. This may not have been the case in the short term, but in the long term is where you can see the appreciation in the behavior. We compliment each other in our understanding of our gender roles.

When we met my wife was dating 2 very rich men (we were non-exclusive, remember?), I had 2 nickels and a beat up pickup truck to my name. Mrs. Tomassi is a medical professional and the men she'd dated prior were E.R. doctors and radiologists; guys making well over $300K annual. They had boats, cars, large homes, status, dispoasable wealth, and yet despite all of that I'm the one she pursued and locked in with (her Mom thought she was insane to marry me at the time). They had it made, but for all that wealth they were still clueless when it came to being Men - they were uncomfortable in their own masculinity. A lot of guys mistakenly believe that having a large bank account is the key to getting women, and while that might be true in the short term, in the long term it's to your own detriment (she'll end up with half after the divorce) if you don't ultimately kill the inner AFC and fearlessly embrace the postiveness of your own masculinity.

There are so many aspects I can detail about what makes for a good marriage, but all of these really boil down to 2 things, genuine desire and mutual respect. Too many couples become complacent and comfortable in their marriages and this leads to a decline in both of these areas. A certain degree of subtle anxiety and constructive discontent is necessary for a good marriage. That comes off as negative, but it's really what makes each partner want to be better for themselves and each other. Taken too far it becomes abusive, but none at all and the marriage becomes stagnant which is equally dangerous. But, in the right proportion, this anxiety makes for a marriage that retains it's mutual desire (which is really IL) and mutual respect.

So how does this anxiety manifest itself? The easiest example is staying in shape together. I can honestly say my wife is as hot (if not more so since the boob job) as the day i married her. I WANT to bang my wife as often as humanly possible, how many men married for 11 years can make that statement? My wife is a piece of ass and I see guys eye her all the time. Likewise I'm a bodybuilder and keep myself in peak condition. In my line of work, I get women in their 20's flirting with me often enough, and this confirms for her and myself that we are both desirable people - this is one example of this anxiety, and we both recognize it and respect each other for it. We even joke about it.

There are other ways this anxiety can be applied, for instance C&F goes a long way in marriage. Mrs. Tomassi loves just enough C&F attitude from me to reaffirm her perception of my confidence. As I said early, marriage is a life long set of sh!t tests and carefully used C&F is a tool that can be used to diffuse a lot of these before they even happen. Confidence is still the thing that makes a woman want a man, even in marriage. Generally a sh!t test IS a test of confidence. Prior to marriage, it's latent purpose is to help a woman determine whether a guy can provide for her long term security. After marriage, a sh!t test is used to reassure a woman that she married the right guy.

I have a lot of rules I pop off with about LTRs & marriage on this forum. I emphasize that a man not even become monogamous until he's 28-30 and that he shouldn't consider marriage until his mid 30s. Again, I state this not because I did so myself, but from my side of the fence I can see the huge advantages to doing so now. Marriage should be a last resort, something to be forestalled until a Man, by virtue of years of experience, has the ability to recognize with measurable accuracy, a woman who deserves what he provides her. The PRIZE mentality is essential. A man must be a Prince first, before he can be a King when he marries. After 11 years of marriage I can honestly say there are no appreciable advantages (outside of raising children) that a man cannot enjoy single that he can married. That's not meant to be pessimistic, but rather a caution to emphasize how important it is to disabuse yourselves of this AFC, romanticized, marriage-as-goal mentality. It's also not to say marriage is never worth it - remember I have a great marriage - just that marriage is complete advantage for women with negligible benefit for men. Marriage will either make a man's life or destroy his life; enter into thinking about it like this and you'll do well - is this person deserving of what I provide? Women will NEVER, even in the best of marriages, fully appreciate the sacrifices a man has to make in order to fulfill his commitment of marriage. This is why you have put your head into thinking whether she's deserving of your provisioning, security, confidence, attention, and that whole laundry list of prerequiste characteristics you have to meet for her acceptance, even when it goes against what you think is your kind and good-hearted nature. You must be as self-concerned about marriage as you would be in saving your own life.

 

[jonwon]

heheh,..no swinging any time soon,..and no cheating either.

Mrs. Tomassi and I have very mature marriage, but by no means a boring or routine one. I like to think that we're a good match because we both had the benefit of maturing in our 20s prior to getting married and we're accepting of that. It's this experience that made us who we are now.

We're together, yet we have our own identities. This is very important because I see far too many AFCs - especially the most responsible, ethical, dependable ones - utterly lose themselves by this endless effort to identify themselves more with their wives over the course of a marriage. And this is only compounded by the lack of experiecne necessary to develop a strong sense of self needed to be a good Man, husband and father.

I can't give anyone a blueprint for a good marriage, I can only tell you what's worked for me. My marriage is strong because it's effortless. Mrs. Tomassi and I play on the same team and we have common purpose (particularly with our daughter). We're a good fit because we don't have to work at it, we don't need to keep it fresh because it never gets dull. I'm not saying it's a party all the time, but we have the ability to roll with circumstance. People wont believe this, but I've never had a fight with my wife that's lasted longer than half a day. And in 11 years this has happened maybe 3-4 times. This is important to me because in the LTR I was in just prior to meeting my wife I had what amounted to a 4.5 year struggle with an abject BPD woman. This time was spent in the pit of misery for me, however, there are things I learned in that LTR that I knew I could (would) never endure in a marriage.

I knew before I ever met Mrs. Tomassi that I could never be faithful to a woman who was less than what was necessary for my personal satisfaction. Does this sound "shallow" or "selfish"? Yeah, well, come to me after 11 years being married and see if it's not. I know myself, I've seen me do it. I've been the cheater and the cheated in my past. I could not be faithful to a woman who'd let herself go physically or one who would not be sexually available (based on real desire) in the long term. This is firmly established in my marriage. People are inclined to think it's "shallow", but when you're betting your future happiness, and the happiness of any children you'll have, in the long term this is in no way "shallow." For the same amount of effort and as much importance that women place on the characteristics that make a man "marriage material", men need to hold any potential wife up to the absolute highest standard for their own satisfaction.

I've posted on many a thread stating that, other than child rearing, there is no advantage for a man in marriage that he couldn't otherwise get outside of it. He sacrifices all of his potential opportunity by committing to her terms, exclusively for her own security. If this is the trade, and a Man does in fact want to be married in spite of fully understanding this (most men don't or refuse to) then she HAS to meet the highest set of criteria. Far too many children are the result of bait & switch marriages and ultimately spawn the next generation of like minded individuals.

Mrs. Tomassi is no push-over and she most certainly gives me sh!t tests even to this day. In fact I've described marriage as one life long sh!t test and I still hold to that mark, but try to see past this as being a negative. From the begining she's EXPECTED me to be positively masculine - to be the decision maker, to be the initiator, to have the ideas and to confidently execute them. Even in my worst failures, the fact that I attempted was more important than the outcome. This may not have been the case in the short term, but in the long term is where you can see the appreciation in the behavior. We compliment each other in our understanding of our gender roles.

When we met my wife was dating 2 very rich men (we were non-exclusive, remember?), I had 2 nickels and a beat up pickup truck to my name. Mrs. Tomassi is a medical professional and the men she'd dated prior were E.R. doctors and radiologists; guys making well over $300K annual. They had boats, cars, large homes, status, dispoasable wealth, and yet despite all of that I'm the one she pursued and locked in with (her Mom thought she was insane to marry me at the time). They had it made, but for all that wealth they were still clueless when it came to being Men - they were uncomfortable in their own masculinity. A lot of guys mistakenly believe that having a large bank account is the key to getting women, and while that might be true in the short term, in the long term it's to your own detriment (she'll end up with half after the divorce) if you don't ultimately kill the inner AFC and fearlessly embrace the postiveness of your own masculinity.

There are so many aspects I can detail about what makes for a good marriage, but all of these really boil down to 2 things, genuine desire and mutual respect. Too many couples become complacent and comfortable in their marriages and this leads to a decline in both of these areas. A certain degree of subtle anxiety and constructive discontent is necessary for a good marriage. That comes off as negative, but it's really what makes each partner want to be better for themselves and each other. Taken too far it becomes abusive, but none at all and the marriage becomes stagnant which is equally dangerous. But, in the right proportion, this anxiety makes for a marriage that retains it's mutual desire (which is really IL) and mutual respect.

So how does this anxiety manifest itself? The easiest example is staying in shape together. I can honestly say my wife is as hot (if not more so since the boob job) as the day i married her. I WANT to bang my wife as often as humanly possible, how many men married for 11 years can make that statement? My wife is a piece of ass and I see guys eye her all the time. Likewise I'm a bodybuilder and keep myself in peak condition. In my line of work, I get women in their 20's flirting with me often enough, and this confirms for her and myself that we are both desirable people - this is one example of this anxiety, and we both recognize it and respect each other for it. We even joke about it.

There are other ways this anxiety can be applied, for instance C&F goes a long way in marriage. Mrs. Tomassi loves just enough C&F attitude from me to reaffirm her perception of my confidence. As I said early, marriage is a life long set of sh!t tests and carefully used C&F is a tool that can be used to diffuse a lot of these before they even happen. Confidence is still the thing that makes a woman want a man, even in marriage. Generally a sh!t test IS a test of confidence. Prior to marriage, it's latent purpose is to help a woman determine whether a guy can provide for her long term security. After marriage, a sh!t test is used to reassure a woman that she married the right guy.

I have a lot of rules I pop off with about LTRs & marriage on this forum. I emphasize that a man not even become monogamous until he's 28-30 and that he shouldn't consider marriage until his mid 30s. Again, I state this not because I did so myself, but from my side of the fence I can see the huge advantages to doing so now. Marriage should be a last resort, something to be forestalled until a Man, by virtue of years of experience, has the ability to recognize with measurable accuracy, a woman who deserves what he provides her. The PRIZE mentality is essential. A man must be a Prince first, before he can be a King when he marries. After 11 years of marriage I can honestly say there are no appreciable advantages (outside of raising children) that a man cannot enjoy single that he can married. That's not meant to be pessimistic, but rather a caution to emphasize how important it is to disabuse yourselves of this AFC, romanticized, marriage-as-goal mentality. It's also not to say marriage is never worth it - remember I have a great marriage - just that marriage is complete advantage for women with negligible benefit for men. Marriage will either make a man's life or destroy his life; enter into thinking about it like this and you'll do well - is this person deserving of what I provide? Women will NEVER, even in the best of marriages, fully appreciate the sacrifices a man has to make in order to fulfill his commitment of marriage. This is why you have put your head into thinking whether she's deserving of your provisioning, security, confidence, attention, and that whole laundry list of prerequiste characteristics you have to meet for her acceptance, even when it goes against what you think is your kind and good-hearted nature. You must be as self-concerned about marriage as you would be in saving your own life.

That was a good read, thanks for sharing, i have read this once already, but this is an extended version.

I like the thing about money, especcially considering the many money topics that seem to be occuring on here, i hope those guys take the time to read what you wrote, but some people will not see what's infront of them.

 

[ThunderMaverick]

I can, more than ever see what you're saying about a marriage being one big sh!t test. Would you agree that why a lot of long term relationships fail is because of a deterioration of a man's confidence when the union becomes stagnant? I definitely see that as being a huge reason my LTR failed. The more comfortable I got, the more jealous and insecure I became. It was like I let all of my walls down because, well, I COULD!

I didn't realize how much stronger I was in the beginning of the relationship until she told me I changed over the course it. When she told me that, guess what I did? RIGHT! I got incredibly defensive! Many of my AFC friends told me it wasn't fair of her to say something like that and she should just "accept me for who I am."

In many ways I felt like I should just stop improving myself and be content with this other person. She wasn't having it, and dumped my ass when she couldn't take anymore. That won't be happening again.

Never realized how much control over myself I needed to have.

Edit!: You were pretty poor when you got with Mrs. Tomassi, however you're saying your good connection, good vibes, and masculine sexuality is what hooked her in, other than wealth? Do you believe (since many here say most women are looking for money and status and not a genuinely good man) she might be an anomaly in the matrix? Do you think most women are like Mrs. Tomassi or opposite? What was different about her than other women?

 

[ketostix]

This a great read Rollo. It would be impossible to disagree with much of it. I would say though that being single and picking up and dating women is one big sh!t test too. As evident by your LTR that you weren't married to. I slightly disagree that a man who chooses to marry should wait until he's at least late 20's to early 30's to begin to think about getting married. I would put that at the upper limit not the beginning, because by that age you pretty much eliminated most of the quality women as an opportunity. I think the criteria should be a guy who wants to marry should marry when he's matured enough and found the right girl, not any preset age.

While I agree it shouldn't be a man's goal to get married or have children and there's risks involved, I have a question about this that you said:

It's also not to say marriage is never worth it - remember I have a great marriage - just that marriage is complete advantage for women with negligible benefit for men.

Then why did you do it Rollo? There must be some benefit to you over being single. You have to remember Rollo you've been married 11 years and haven't been single since you were 28. A lot's changed in 11 years on the singles market. Add to that you said you were in LTR for what was it 4.5 years. While technically single it wasn't all good then. I mean you'd have to go back to your early 20's before it seems like you were single and having a good time. That was a long time ago, you were younger and the single market in many ways has worsen since the early 90's. I'm just saying a lot of married men no matter how happy they are with their marriage long for their single days in a grass is greener type thing. No disrespect at all, I'm just saying it's beyond any person's ability to know what 2 alternative life choices would have brought them, and it's natural to assume the path not taken was as good or better than the one taken.

 

[Colossus]

This should be stickied.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

You were pretty poor when you got with Mrs. Tomassi, however you're saying your good connection, good vibes, and masculine sexuality is what hooked her in, other than wealth? Do you believe (since many here say most women are looking for money and status and not a genuinely good man) she might be an anomaly in the matrix? Do you think most women are like Mrs. Tomassi or opposite? What was different about her than other women?

Oh absolutely not, Mrs. T is an anomally in some respects, but she's also very predictable in others. She definitely follows many standard behaviors and reasonings women will in order to meet security needs, adjust priorities, sh!t tests, etc. If she's an anomally in any way it's due to her being self-aware for the most part about them. She could have very easily settled down with a guy who was (at the time) a much better catch financially than myself, but a rich AFC is still an AFC. I often point out that women's primary drive is one of sustainable security, but you have to understand that this security comes in many different forms. Our tendency is to make the word "security" synonymous with "money", but I think this is a common mistake. Security can have roots in the emotional, intellectual, empathetic, etc. that aren't mitigated by money. Women for whom money has never been an object still have security needs, they're just expressed in different realms. The best security a Man can offer a woman is his ability to be respected as a Man, in a positive masculine sense which is based in his own self-confidence. Money may solve a lot of problems, but it's confident, masculine resourcefullness that provides a woman with security should the money dissappear.

You have to understand that my wife has always had traditional gender role expectations with regards to men (and women incidentally). From day one I was expected to be the Man. She would insist I drive her car if we were to take it somewhere on a date. This kind of set the frame for our marriage. I'd fill that masculine role or I'd be yesterday's news, and this is how we are today. Up to then I'd never experienced a woman like her. Most of my dating, ONSs, LTRs and just random women had more or less been stereotypical post-feminism, attitude about men. Here was a good looking woman who basically knew what she wanted in a guy, and without hesitation for fear of being percieved as "submissive" expected me to take the masculine role. In this sense she's an exception to the rule.

I slightly disagree that a man who chooses to marry should wait until he's at least late 20's to early 30's to begin to think about getting married. I would put that at the upper limit not the beginning, because by that age you pretty much eliminated most of the quality women as an opportunity. I think the criteria should be a guy who wants to marry should marry when he's matured enough and found the right girl, not any preset age.

The problem with this logic is that, honestly, guys don't even become Men until they're 30. Poke your browser in the Discussions or High School forums, or *shudder* spend a little time over at Love Shack.org. Ask any 16 to 26 year old if they "know what they're looking for in a woman" for an LTR and every last one will tell you yes before they parot back to you a laundry list of absolute AFC-Matrix reasonings that only prove they'd rather identify themselves wholesale with what any woman has ever shamed them into believing they "should" want. I've had boys as young as 11 give me similar responses.

I realize my advising this ruffles a lot of guy's feathers because they desperately want that permanent sexual connection they've be told is the only way to a woman's intimacy. Too much maturation takes place between adolescence and 30 years of age. A lot of guys take the binary approach and assume I mean for them to ƒuck any and every woman they humanly can until 30, this is NOT the reason. There are necessary experiences a man needs to go through in order to mature that are only available to him outside a monogamous relationship. The uninitiated think I exclusively mean sexual experiences, I don't. There are too many opportunities for a guy in developing himself personally, professionally, educationally, familially, artistically, etc. that directly preclude being wrapped up in the liabilities, accountabilities and responsibilities that a monogamous relationship necessitates. Women are dream-killers. Not because they have some universally recognized conspiratorial plot to destroy men, but because men will only too readily, voluntarily, kill their own dreams, deny their own passions, to force an effort to satisfy a woman. This is why you stay single until 30 (or later). There are opportunities for you that are only avialable in these years when you are not committed to a woman's security needs.

Then why did you do it Rollo?

Heheh,..just for the record, I was hardly faithful in my 4.5 year LTR prior to Mrs. Tomassi - thus my revelation about needing someone I could be faithful to.

You can certainly make the argument that at 39 and having removed myself from single life for a dozen years puts me out of that experience. OK. I wont fight that one, but living with a woman (successfully) for that time and raising a daughter from infancy to 9 y.o. gives me a lot of insight. I will say this, that in doing so I've gained more perspective on being single, how women operate, what it is to be positively masculine, etc. One parodox of the game is that to really understand it you have to remove yourself from it. Honestly, I proposed to my wife for the same reason any other AFC thinks marriage is a good idea. I wasn't the same guy then who I am today. I didn't set out to prove that I could have a great marriage and be a role model for guys everywhere, it just happened that I married who I did and things evolved from there. But understand, the reason I say there is no advantage a guy can experience (outside of bringing up kids) inside marriage as outside is because I'm married. I can tell you about women's security needs, sh!t tests, gender role observations, communication methods, and the vast majority of what I post about here because I'm not personally involved in the game now.

 

[Colossus]

The problem with this logic is that, honestly, guys don't even become Men until they're 30. Poke your browser in the Discussions or High School forums, or *shudder* spend a little time over at Love Shack.org. Ask any 16 to 26 year old if they "know what they're looking for in a woman" for an LTR and every last one will tell you yes before they parot back to you a laundry list of absolute AFC-Matrix reasonings that only prove they'd rather identify themselves wholesale with what any woman has ever shamed them into believing they "should" want. I've had boys as young as 11 give me similar responses.

I see what youre saying, but since im on the tail end of your age spectrum I have to pipe in.

I feel like Im one of the FEW guys my age would could, with 90-95% mature objectivity, describe the qualites I want in a wife. Not parroted, AFC-coated socialized concepts, but things that i KNOW i want based on my own experiences and wisdom. I also consider myself more mature than many guys my age, at least in terms of introspection and self-actualization. And i honestly couldnt have done this even a year or two ago...so i think about how much i could still mature between now and 30.

So I also understand I still have a good deal of maturing to do before I am ready to get married, should I choose to. Im glad I have gotten past the implicit 'need' to get married in life, but from time to time I am confronted with that desire, and i have to take an honest look at my life and behavior and ask myself, almost as if i am asking a friend, if i am ready for that commitment. And thus far the answer has been no.

Marriage is serious business, and it can be the best descision you have ever made or the worst. It can be very easy to get impetuous with the desire to get married and make an ill-sighted choice. It's easy to project your ideal qualities onto your current gf because being honest about her fitness for you is even harder than being honest about your fitness for marriage (I use the term 'your' for illustration).

 

[azanon]

I slightly disagree that a man who chooses to marry should wait until he's at least late 20's to early 30's to begin to think about getting married. I would put that at the upper limit not the beginning, because by that age you pretty much eliminated most of the quality women as an opportunity. I think the criteria should be a guy who wants to marry should marry when he's matured enough and found the right girl, not any preset age.

Good for you! The right answer is choice C; it depends and its case-by-case, depends on your maturity, and when you meet that outstanding, lights out woman. You just can't fit this one in a box, and anyone that does so is being short-sighted.

I'm just saying a lot of married men no matter how happy they are with their marriage long for their single days in a grass is greener type thing. No disrespect at all, I'm just saying it's beyond any person's ability to know what 2 alternative life choices would have brought them, and it's natural to assume the path not taken was as good or better than the one taken.

Bingo!; two (multi) dimensional thinking! RT's way of doing it worked for him and he has no major regrets in any stage of his life. Neither do I though I married at 21.

Would I have liked to have more sex with more women? Like duh, most men would! In the same respect, would I rather have 8 awesome years of marriage at this point, or 14? I'm gonna go with 14. (I'd be 8 had I married at 28).

 

[ketostix]

Good for you! The right answer is choice C; it depends and its case-by-case, depends on your maturity, and when you meet that outstanding, lights out woman. You just can't fit this one in a box, and anyone that does so is being short-sighted.



Bingo!; two (multi) dimensional thinking! RT's way of doing it worked for him and he has no major regrets in any stage of his life. Neither do I though I married at 21.

Would I have liked to have more sex with more women? Like duh, most men would! In the same respect, would I rather have 8 awesome years of marriage at this point, or 14? I'm gonna go with 14. (I'd be 8 had I married at 28).

Totally agree, you have weigh it case by case and be more fluid like water not rigid. I pretty much knew what I wanted by the time I was 13 and it hasn't really changed that much. I find it totally plausable a guy say 20-25 could be mature enough and find the right opportunity.

In the same respect, would I rather have 8 awesome years of marriage at this point, or 14? I'm gonna go with 14. (I'd be 8 had I married at 28).

Yeah, and who's to say had you waited you would have ended up marrying a girl as good as the one you have or even got married and would've been better off? It's not knowable if an alternative path would've been better or even as good. I'm just saying you have to take good opportunities as they come and you can't be locked into a plan. Life doesn't follow everyone's plans. You married at 21 and Rollo married at 28 and your both happy with it. It just follows my belief that most guys who want to get married will likely find the best opportunity sometime in their 20's.

 

[azanon]

Yeah, and who's to say had you waited you would have ended up marrying a girl as good as the one you have or even got married and would've been better off? It's not knowable if an alternative path would've been better or even as good. I'm just saying you have to take good opportunities as they come and you can't be locked into a plan. Life doesn't follow everyone's plans. You married at 21 and Rollo married at 28 and your both happy with it. It just follows my belief that most guys who want to get married will likely find the best opportunity sometime in their 20's.

My wife is just an outstanding, incredible person. Is she hot? Oh I think so; great body, very good looks. But looks ain't even the start. I have had so many people, including women, come and tell me unsolicted what a great person she seems to be. I have a lot going for me, make no mistake, but as to who's the better person there's no contest; it would be her. She's not a complete person though. It just so happens her weaknesses are my strengths (financial management, toughness/ability to get nasty, a few others).

I wish RT would visit LR sometime so he could meet her. I'm pretty sure after doing so he would agree I did not make a mistake by marrying this woman. Bottom line, I met her at age 19 1/2. What am I supposed to do? Tell her lets part our ways and meet back up in 10 years????

I knew I would want to live a married life for as long as I can remember. I knew the unknown factor was when would I meet the woman that was worthy. You don't just pick an age (like 28), then say ok its time to go pick up my wife this weekend! Look, I believe quality women are out there, but it could take many years before you meet her.

My wife had one sexual partner prior to my marriage, not many. I know of this guy too (seen pictures), but I have never personally met him. Speaking only for myself, I like the idea that there was only one other guy. Personally, it would probably bother me if she had had many conquests prior. The reason for this was that she was (and still is) very religious.

 

[CGE333]

I agree w/ Rollo completely here. I got married earlier this year and would not have considered it if it were not for each of us having the ability to have our own identities and lives inside the marriage and the only way I see that happening for anyone is with experience. I think ideally you go into it not really needing the other person for anything. You of course like having them around but you are not needy in relationships like you were when you were younger (at least I was and so was the women I dated). We don't need each other emotionally as we are both stable and do not depend on the other for happiness. We don't need each other financially- she is a doctor who of course makes very good money, I make even more than she does. When it is right it should happen almost effortlessly. We just enjoy having each other around and being together. We definately have disagreements every now and then but like Rollo said these never carry on for days on end, at the worst we wait for a cooling off period, discuss and move on. There is no hang over effect. I know that no matter what I face in this world, my wife is going to have my back and when you really think about it there are not that many women out there that you can say that about. Not many women or men these days take their wedding vows seriously. We did.

You have to judge everyone individually of course but I think that a lot of the way people are have to do with their upbringing. I was married before (my current wife was not) when I was 22 (big mistake). This woman was gorgeous w/no self esteem, harsh to say but not the sharpest tool in the shed, and came from a family where her dad was a former drug addict and her mom a big time cheater (her mom got knocked up by another man while married to her dad). Of course her older sister had cheated on her husband and eventually my first wife cheated on me. At the beginning of that relationship I thought I could get her out of all that. Now I see that most people cannot rise above what they are and that you are better off letting those people alone. They are just trash. It was the hardest thing I ever went through at the time, but now I am glad that I am no longer w/ my ex wife. The difference between my ex and my current wife is like night and day. Plus any kids I would have had with my ex would probably just complete the cycle.

My current wife comes from a very good family with good values and a good upbringing. She is a doctor, one brother is literally a rocket scientist having worked on the design for part of the space shuttle and other rockets, her other brother is a lawyer. Both of her brothers have been happily married for years and her parents have been married for over 40 years. I know that any kids I have with my current wife will be given the best possibility to have successful, productive lives. Everyone in their extended family is supportive and wants the best for everyone.

 

[Colossus]

I agree w/ Rollo completely here. I got married earlier this year and would not have considered it if it were not for each of us having the ability to have our own identities and lives inside the marriage and the only way I see that happening for anyone is with experience. I think ideally you go into it not really needing the other person for anything. You of course like having them around but you are not needy in relationships like you were when you were younger (at least I was and so was the women I dated). We don't need each other emotionally as we are both stable and do not depend on the other for happiness. We don't need each other financially- she is a doctor who of course makes very good money, I make even more than she does. When it is right it should happen almost effortlessly. We just enjoy having each other around and being together. We definately have disagreements every now and then but like Rollo said these never carry on for days on end, at the worst we wait for a cooling off period, discuss and move on. There is no hang over effect. I know that no matter what I face in this world, my wife is going to have my back and when you really think about it there are not that many women out there that you can say that about. Not many women or men these days take their wedding vows seriously. We did.

You have to judge everyone individually of course but I think that a lot of the way people are have to do with their upbringing. I was married before (my current wife was not) when I was 22 (big mistake). This woman was gorgeous w/no self esteem, harsh to say but not the sharpest tool in the shed, and came from a family where her dad was a former drug addict and her mom a big time cheater (her mom got knocked up by another man while married to her dad). Of course her older sister had cheated on her husband and eventually my first wife cheated on me. At the beginning of that relationship I thought I could get her out of all that. Now I see that most people cannot rise above what they are and that you are better off letting those people alone. They are just trash. It was the hardest thing I ever went through at the time, but now I am glad that I am no longer w/ my ex wife. The difference between my ex and my current wife is like night and day. Plus any kids I would have had with my ex would probably just complete the cycle.

My current wife comes from a very good family with good values and a good upbringing. She is a doctor, one brother is literally a rocket scientist having worked on the design for part of the space shuttle and other rockets, her other brother is a lawyer. Both of her brothers have been happily married for years and her parents have been married for over 40 years. I know that any kids I have with my current wife will be given the best possibility to have successful, productive lives. Everyone in their extended family is supportive and wants the best for everyone.

Awesome. Good to hear a success story here.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Got this in a PM from HUMANIST. He's too young to post here, but I thought this would be good to share.

Good Evenning Mr. Tomassi,

I have found your reply to ThunderMaverick very enlightening and I have a question(s) that I would like to ask, though I'm far too young to post.

Anyways, my question is this. You said that a person should not contemplate monogamy to somewhere at least 26 and marriage until the mid's 30's. The reasoning behind it is not for the idea that the person need to "bang as many chicks as possible before 30," but for the unrealized benefit that how much a man need to mature.

I'm 18, obviously far younger than the guideline you advised (and why I can't just post in that thread). I am aware and admit to myself that I am probably still very immature and still have much to learn and grow. I understand what Socrates meant by knowing nothing more than the fact he is ignorant.

Still I must ask, how do I know if I'm mature as a person, not mature for marriage but as a person as well? What is the thing that separate in maturity "the men from the boys" or reaching the line said recently in the forum that "a man must become?" I believe that mature varies very much despite the fact that mature do correlate with age. There are many well into their 30's and 40's and never grew up and there are those in their teen's and 20's who is wise beyond their years.

What is the something that one need to understand that can only gain in their 20's if there is one? Will I "just know" as the years past that I am mature enough? What is the characteristics aside that the one clue you gave is that 18-26 not basing their requirements from their past experiences and understanding of the self and its wants (like you understanding that will cheat unless the woman you choose meets your desires), but only from society instilled conventions. Or is this a thing that I cannot fully know and just hope that being in a certain age that by the correlation of age and maturity that I'll be mature man (and in a marriage, pick a women who also mature enough)?

The first thing to understand is that any committment implies losing options. This applies to women, your personal life, your career, your education and your family. Committment means responsibility of, and accountability for not upholding that committment. Committment halts opportunity and impedes your freedom to manuever in taking advantage of options that conflict with this committment. This isn't to say certain things aren't worth committing to, but there must always be a firm understanding of what is required to meet that committment and weighing the benefits of that committment against the costs. The paradox of this is that you must remain free of committment to understand the factors that make it.

This said, it would be very easy for me to simply say "you'll know when you're mature", but you have to be able to make comparisons with how you would've made decisions in the past with regards to how you make them in the present. As a Man you must define for yourself what is "mature" for you. Women will always call you mature so long as what you do and what you think is in accordance to what their expectations are. Same with work, same with family; so long as you live up to what benefits them they consider you mature - break from their purpose, and you are immature. So it's necessary to have a clear vision of what you think is mature. 90% of what most men think is "mature" comes as a result of just doing what other's have convinced them "should" be the mature thing to do. Thus we have a millions of men marching off to war, marching off to work, marching off to do the things that have been conditioned into them to believe they are confident, mature, adult men, when in fact they are only living up to other's expectations that they've internalized to become their own.

Preserving and protecting your options isn't an idea that's exclusive to Plate Theory. Power and confidence comes from available options. A lot of people think of Power in a negative context, but this is a mistake. Power isn't about controlling other and forcing them to your will, that's just manipulation and exploitation. True Power is the measure to which you have control over your own decisions that affect your life. This is why the vast majority of men feel powerless - because they've allowed someone elses expectations and entitlements to become their own by way of committment.

Often men don't understand their predicament until it's too late. They made a decision to marry their GF at 19 out of an inability to fully understand why they think it should be expected. They follow the GF out of state to a college not of their choosing and completely incompatible with their own passions in order to "do the right thing, all for love." They move into mediocre jobs that better accommodate what is expected of them as a provider. And then at 40 look back on their divorces, their scattered children and wonder how it all went wrong after so many years of doing exactly what's been expected of him in order to be a "mature" man.

You're right about wisdom not being exclusive to age, but this means that the wisdom must be truth to begin with. I personally know 60+ y.o. AFCs who tragically will never escape their own Matrix. I also know 25 y.o.s who have, and are busy creating their own identities unhindered by self-inflicted committments that retard their maturation. Self-love is not so great a sin as self-neglect. I am a firm believer in enlightened self-interest now. I believe that the best way to help others is to first help myself and position myself to be able to do so, as well as have the wisdom to know what's worth my effort to engage in.

 

[Bible_Belt]

great post

They move into mediocre jobs that better accommodate what is expected of them as a provider.

Hey that was my last breakup! She actually said to me, 'You getting a stable job makes me horny.'

 

[reset]

....The problem with this logic is that, honestly, guys don't even become Men until they're 30...Too much maturation takes place between adolescence and 30 years of age.

I agree with this. I'm almost 31 and only now am I "growing up", like the rest of what you said in this thread, I lived most of my life "just because I was supposed to". It's only now at this age, with enough crap in my past, that I'm getting the courage to go after my dreams, and that only comes from developing genuine self-love.

I also have to add it's encouraging as well, because up until recently, I truly thought a man was defined by how many women he slept with. All the other things I did in my life, like developing my career, developing my art, self-reflection and discovery-- I took very small pleasure in them becasue I wasn't in the perfect hollywood romance. And I see a lot of guys here on the Mature Forum who are a little younger than me and seem to have women figured out. Crap, at almost 31 I'm just finally deciding that I want to live the rest of my life for ME, and I actually don't know how women fit into that just yet... when previously that was my ONLY desire (and probably why it never happened--because I needed it too much, had no postive identity).

I do want to build up the courage to go out and "sarge", but at the same time I realize how important it is for me to have a clear direction in life and to have my own feelings of self-worth, and to do the things I love to do, be my main priority. So it's good to see someone say I've got a lot to look forward to, when previously I had thought that my best years were behind me.

 

[Interceptor]

True Power is the measure to which you have control over your own decisions that affect your life

 

[Interceptor]

As Rollo alludes, a Mature Masculine Man's Greatest Resource is his EMOTIONAL STRENGTH.

The ability to be resilient in spiti of adversity and obstacles and challenges..........

Your ability to "get things done" and not whine, b*tch, or moan about "doing what a Man's gotta do" is your GREATEST resource.


"stepping up to the plate"

"manning up"

"nothing I can't handle"

"I don't sweat the small stuff. It's all small stuff."



IF you review the main four traits I see as being criticial to a MM man:

Lover
Hunter
Warrior
Provider

ALL of them require tremendous strength to be the underpinning, the foundation for ultimate self realization, that is, your Optimal Masculine Self, and the realization of yout TRUE, INNER Potential. Not someone else's vsion of who you are "supposed" to be or "should" be.


Discipline, Confidence, Self Esteem, and Positive Outlook and your Inner Emotional Strength (unflinching, nerves of steel, resolve and determination)are by far IMO your greatest goals MM should be striving for.