Jealousy and the double standard

[Pandora]

So i was talking to a female that i had a summer fling with. We started talking about the double standard. She stated that a girl can only date one guy and have sex 500 times. But if another women has sex only 25 times with 25 different guys, shes more of a ***** than the relationship girl. It got me thinking about this concept of the stigma of the slut and jealousy. It can't be about the number of times that she was penetrated. If it was, we men would look at long term relationship girl as more of a ***** than the other girl.

Is there really any justification of why a guy would get pissed if a women has had many sexual partners (granted you know she is STD free)? All of us know that women have a decent sex drive. They also get many more sexual opportunities than we do. Can we expect a low body count? I am aware of the the obivous evo bio selfish gene/ sperm war explanation. Is it possible to get beyond this evolutionary past? Is there any justification of male sexual competition jealousy besides the obvious evolutionary bio explanation?

I find it hard not to be a little jealous/territorial at the thought of a female that i have a romantic relationships with, having sex with other partners. But its kinda hard to justify the feelings of jealously when you are also playing the field and doing the same thing. That's essentially what "spinning plates" is. By saying that women just can't have as many sexual partners as men do, isn't that just kinda trying to figure out a way to rationalize our jealousy over sexual competition.

I'm not talking about super extreme cases of promiscuity where the female obviously has emotional issues. Im talking about your average garden variety "sex and the city" female promiscuity. I have heard the "bonding mechanism" argument. It states that a female should not be promiscious because this indicates a malfunction in her ability to bond with a long term partner. Sex is a bonding mechanism. I am not sure what to think?

 

[L B]

We got the long end of the stick on this one, so....what's the problem?

 

[Greasy Pig]

I struggle with it too but I'm not overly hung up on how many blokes a girl has been with. I'd be a massive hypocrite if I was.
But then again, I think most men would rather not MARRY the town bike.
In saying that, there's something about walking into a room and knowing she's fvcked three other blokes there that doesn't sit well with me.
I guess if she fvcked 100 blokes I've never met and never WILL meet, then that's ok.

 

[squirrels]

I dunno, dude. Women I've met who are one-man women are women I've found to be pretty boring. Most of them are that way because they're religious zealots, which often automatically indicates a close-minded perspective, or they're rigid followers of the social order, which limits their usefulness to me as companions.

But then the slvtty girls...they DO seem incapable of really caring about anyone.

But then sometimes I think it's selfish to ask that a girl care more about ONE man than anyone else. For me to ask a woman to put ME above all other people in her life...that's a tall order. One, I don't deserve that.

Two...and this is important for understanding my perspective on these kinds of things...a woman who NEEDS to be sexually exclusive with a man to form a deep bond with him isn't really forming a deep bond at all. If you read about all the chemicals released during sexual intercourse, it really is a "bonding agent", and if a woman can't truly become your "significant other" without getting hopped up on oxytocin or endorphins or whatever, then what happens when the "changes of life" hit and there's no longer sexual desire? What happens when she gets sexually BORED with you?

It's not the girl you want to get INTO bed that you should marry. It's the girl you don't want to kick OUT of bed when you're done.

Most people still...STILL...inseparably pair LOVE and SEX. And this is a stumbling block, because as I've pointed out, love is a human psychological experience, whereas sex is an animal urge. We can direct sex to serve love, but love cannot and does not control sex.

Lots of women were SHOCKED after I slept with them at how I didn't seem to fall madly in love at that point. And the women I HAVE fallen hard for...I never even got to f**k many of them.

Most people in this world are trained how to repress sex...never how to truly handle it. Because of its animal unpredictability, and how that unknown interferes with the ability to plan a rigid future, it's often rejected out-of-turn, tucked inside a little box in the back of one's existence and trapped there until you find "someone special".

Why do you need someone special? Because people aren't willing to let other people know JUST how out-of-control they ARE when it comes to natural human impulses. Once they find that "special someone", in the sharing of that madness, they are laid bare to each other and a deep psychological bond is formed.

I've compared it before to war or hazing...you see your "brothers" around you in their most primal, helpless states, and between you, that fosters a private sense of TRUST that two people who have never seen that side of each other could ever have. You know, once you show this person how much of an animal you really are, and they show you the same, that the two of you could never JUDGE each other for essentially what amounts to "being human".

I've been judged all my life...I spent the greater part of my life hiding aspects of myself that I found "embarassing", that people would eventually come to find out and judge me about anyway. It took a while for me to realize that everyone suffered from the same aspects...it's part of being human.

I don't know what I think of "sexuality" any more. I really don't. I hate it as much as I love it...and the only time I can really enjoy it is in times of compromised judgement. Sex in the name of "order" doesn't appeal to me any more...only "chaos". Only to show self-ordained emperors and empresses how "naked" they really are.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

ANDREW DICE CLAY: Hey, is that your chick there?

GUY IN THE AUDIENCE: Yeah!

DICE: Damn, she's pretty hot!

GUY: Yeah,..

DICE: You been together a while?

GUY: About 6 months.

DICE: Nice. She faithful to you?

GUY: Oh yeah.

DICE: She good in bed?

GUY: *nods head enthusiastically*

DICE: She suck a good d!ck?

GUY: (laughing) Oooh yeah,..heheh,..

DICE: I suppose the next question would be, "How do you suppose she got that way?"



Every man wants a slut, he just wants her to be HIS slut.

 

[zekko]

a woman who NEEDS to be sexually exclusive with a man to form a deep bond with him isn't really forming a deep bond at all.

I tend to think that the exclusivity comes out of respect for the other person, the bond doesn't come from the exclusivity.

if a woman can't truly become your "significant other" without getting hopped up on oxytocin or endorphins or whatever, then what happens when the "changes of life" hit and there's no longer sexual desire? What happens when she gets sexually BORED with you?

Then you break up. At least in this day and age you do.
In times past there were incentives to stay married, and consequences to getting divorced. Now there are incentives for the woman to get the divorce.
Anyway, I do agree with you that most relationships have a shelf life. That's why even though I'm in a LTR of seven years now, I am prepared for it to end at any time. I'm not hoping it will end, but I know what can happen and I won't be caught flat footed.

Lots of women were SHOCKED after I slept with them at how I didn't seem to fall madly in love at that point.

I wonder why? Isn't that the stereotype, that they guy will just want sex and then be gone as soon as he gets it?

I don't know what I think of "sexuality" any more. I really don't. I hate it as much as I love it...

That's a little surprising, since you are (I gather) someone who doesn't want to be in a relationship, but wants to be free so he can pursue the sexuality. I can't say I have any hatred of sexuality, so I'm not sure I know what you mean.

 

[squirrels]

I tend to think that the exclusivity comes out of respect for the other person, the bond doesn't come from the exclusivity.

I tend to think that you're right that the bond doesn't come from exclusivity. But exclusivity should be something that's DESIRED by both people, not something that's IMPOSED by a sense of "respect".

Staying faithful when you don't WANT to is no different than cheating. One who is not faithful in their desires is as "dirty" as one who is unfaithful in their actions...they're just dishonest in addition to being unfaithful. Which is even WORSE in my eyes.

That's a little surprising, since you are (I gather) someone who doesn't want to be in a relationship, but wants to be free so he can pursue the sexuality. I can't say I have any hatred of sexuality, so I'm not sure I know what you mean.

I'd LOVE to find someone I can share my life with. The thing is...I just don't meet that many people who are interested in "sharing a life" more than they are in just "having someone". I don't need "someone". I need a person that I connect with on more than a romantic level.

One of the wiser women I've met in my life (no, not a romantic interest) once told me that love comes and love goes...marry someone you LIKE. That lasts.

The reason I hate sexuality is because it gets in the way...it clouds the issue and most people just plain can't handle it. People can't accept sex as a physical experience, so when they physically copulate, it sets off a swirling maelstrom of thoughts in their heads...they have to try to figure out "what it means". They have to analyze every little detail of what's going on in their heads, and they make up some unfathomable weirdness.

But then...it's possible to be married to someone...and still have sexual feelings about someone else. If you aren't mature enough to handle that possibility, then you start thinking, "What does THIS mean??" In a liberated, free-minded society, the typical person will think that it means that they don't love the person they're with any more and now "love" someone else, because they confused sex with true companionship in the first place and now they're confusing it AGAIN.

Sex, to me, is a wonderful physical experience that's wasted on rational creatures who try to make it out to be more than it is.

In nature, it's a mechanic to draw creatures to procreate.

We, as humans, have learned to separate procreation from "the act" and enjoy it as a mechanism of pure pleasure, much like other mind-altering experiences. Yet in doing so, we have the annoying trait that we try to ascribe "meaning" to it, because we ego-driven beings assign much more importance to ourselves and to each other than we deserve.

Sex is measured, controlled, and marketed now. It's restrained by the bonds of logic and corrupted to the point where it has no meaning any more. "Sex", in the typical "relationship", is really dumbed down.

It used to be the last thing that the social order couldn't touch...that's what made it so powerful...but now it demands conformity. Sex can be enjoyed, but only via socially acceptable "outlets", that is, in a socially sanctioned "relationship", at certain times, at a certain frequency, with certain acts, and they even control what emotions you are SUPPOSED to feel when you have it.

The ONLY truly FREE sex is that which is forbidden or unsanctioned by society. That's why I can appreciate a so-called "slvt" much more than I can appreciate a woman who's having sex in a relationship because it's "what couples are supposed to do". The latter is doing it as an obligation. The former is doing it because she GETS OFF on it.

If that makes sense.

But knowing that, I know that the random nature of "free" sexuality makes it impossible to form a pair-bond based on "romance", as eventually, I will be tempted, and my "girlfriend/wife" will be tempted. I therefore HATE sexuality as much as I LOVE it. Because I know that it will eventually destroy lesser human beings.

And looking for a woman who is capable of affection on a "higher level" is going to be a long quest...one which may not have an end.

I'm not even sure if I can reach "that level" myself.

By the way...I know a lot of these thoughts sound incomplete. I'm not trying to pontificate...I'm working a lot of these things out in my head as I post them. So I do appreciate being challenged by varying viewpoints...even when Iqqi comes in and plays the perennial buzzkill.

 

[Pandora]

But then again, I think most men would rather not MARRY the town bike.
In saying that, there's something about walking into a room and knowing she's fvcked three other blokes there that doesn't sit well with me.

This is exactly my point. Why does this bother us. It is very difficult to rationally justify why we feel this way. If the sex did not have any permanent effect on her body, what business is it of ours? Since this aversion to being in a LTR with a who** is so common among men, it must be a primal emotion.


Knowing that sex is so primal, do you guys think that jealousy is a useful emotion. I am trying to get rid of being jealous at all. This emotional just seems to defy all reason. Its a residual emotion from our primate nature. I mean who cares if a girl you are seeing in a long distance relationship is hooking up with other dudes. If she is still happy to see you and it doesn't effect the relationship, why do we care?

Pimps wield enormous power over certain women. They are also able to remove themselves from being jealous over the sexual exploits of their women. They are also able to still have sex with their women even though they are with dozens of men daily. Yes i know pimps are a deviant anomaly. I am just saying this is an ultimate expression of inner game. I'm starting to think that jealousy is an AFC emotion. All jealousy is based on insecurities. No guy is jealous when their ex girl is dating a non sexual super geek. We are jealous when they are dating a star football player.

How we view female sexuality is going to have a direct effect on how much control she can manipulate us with jealousy. It also has a direct effect on how we feel about her past lovers. If we view women in an egalitarian light when it comes to the amount of sex partners then in theory we would have no problem with jealousy and sexual competition.

woman who NEEDS to be sexually exclusive with a man to form a deep bond with him isn't really forming a deep bond at all.

Interesting point btw.

 

[Pandora]

The only reason i am bringing this thread up is that the girl i had a summer fling with is talking about starting a long term relationship. Shes still in college, first year actually (shes 18) and im 25. I'm seeing a couple more women on the side in my area (all around my age). She's goin to school like 7 states away. I tried explaining to her that it wouldn't work out because in a LDR you are constantly worrying about who is sleeping with your girl/guy when your not around (The age difference is kinda big too). I am trying to use my reason to asses whether this should even matter (as long as i don't know). If it doesn't effect the relationship why should i care right? What you don't know cant hurt you type of thing? Need advice?

 

[zekko]

I tend to think that you're right that the bond doesn't come from exclusivity. But exclusivity should be something that's DESIRED by both people, not something that's IMPOSED by a sense of "respect".

I don't see anything wrong with respect. If it is sincere respect, I wouldn't characterize it as imposing anything.

I don't think any guy is ever going to stop looking at other girls and thinking about what it would be like to bang them. I don't care how involved they are with their wife, girlfriend, or whatever. The question is, does what you get from the LTR outweigh the pleasures of running around? I don't cheat on my girl because that would be hurtful to her, and disrespectful. And that overrides whatever fleeting physical pleasure I might receive from messing around.

So you could say I desire the exclusivity because I am going with what is more important to me, the priority. But if you are saying that you should never look at or want another girl just because you are in a relationship, I don't think that's realistic.

One of the wiser women I've met in my life (no, not a romantic interest) once told me that love comes and love goes...marry someone you LIKE. That lasts.

Totally agree with that, very smart.

 

[scorpio1138]

This is a fascinating topic and hopefully many more will chime in with thoughts and experiences.

I had an odd one recently.

a recently divorced women I've been seeing on and off for the last year, was also having an affair with a guy a few states away. they would hook up every couple of months. they "planned" on moving in together some day soon but they keep going back and forth fighting from time to time.

she was in this affair before we started hooking up. I've known her a very long time (since high school) and she never promised me anything. no commitment or future....we're just fvck buddies and booty calls to each other.

thats the understanding we have.

I get very mild to zero jealousy when I hear stories about them. I've even seen video of the two of them going at it.

yet last friday she told me she went out with this other dude who is local in town here. I know she slept with him once or twice before, so I'm sure she banged him last friday.

After I found out about it I was livid!
then I had to remind myself that we are not committed and just doing it for fun. I'm fine now, but damn did that piss me off initially. I guess I wanted to be the only "local dik" for her. Part of it may have been that she and I have spent the last 4 weekends together.

I'm not looking for a reply or analysis just sharing a story.

 

[Greasy Pig]

Interesting, Scorpio.
I was in a similar situation on Friday night. I banged this girl about two months ago. She went overseas, came back, has blown me twice (as an aside, it was fvcking amazing) and keeps dragging me away to make out whenever we run into each other.

I keep her at arm's length because I can see she's a potential BPD but then on Friday night, we duck out of the pub, make out and then return to keep drinking with the group.

Then she starts hooking up with this other guy and brings him back to the house party we were all invited to.
I was thinking I should be p1ssed off at her but then I thought, I don't have any attachment to her apart from the fact I can't wait till her lips are wrapped around my d1ck again.
She's not my girlfriend so I just shrugged it off and hit on her friend. That didn't work out but I think it was the right reaction.

 

[iqqi]

I tend to think that you're right that the bond doesn't come from exclusivity. But exclusivity should be something that's DESIRED by both people, not something that's IMPOSED by a sense of "respect".

Staying faithful when you don't WANT to is no different than cheating. One who is not faithful in their desires is as "dirty" as one who is unfaithful in their actions...they're just dishonest in addition to being unfaithful. Which is even WORSE in my eyes.



I'd LOVE to find someone I can share my life with. The thing is...I just don't meet that many people who are interested in "sharing a life" more than they are in just "having someone". I don't need "someone". I need a person that I connect with on more than a romantic level.

One of the wiser women I've met in my life (no, not a romantic interest) once told me that love comes and love goes...marry someone you LIKE. That lasts.

The reason I hate sexuality is because it gets in the way...it clouds the issue and most people just plain can't handle it. People can't accept sex as a physical experience, so when they physically copulate, it sets off a swirling maelstrom of thoughts in their heads...they have to try to figure out "what it means". They have to analyze every little detail of what's going on in their heads, and they make up some unfathomable weirdness.

But then...it's possible to be married to someone...and still have sexual feelings about someone else. If you aren't mature enough to handle that possibility, then you start thinking, "What does THIS mean??" In a liberated, free-minded society, the typical person will think that it means that they don't love the person they're with any more and now "love" someone else, because they confused sex with true companionship in the first place and now they're confusing it AGAIN.

Sex, to me, is a wonderful physical experience that's wasted on rational creatures who try to make it out to be more than it is.

In nature, it's a mechanic to draw creatures to procreate.

We, as humans, have learned to separate procreation from "the act" and enjoy it as a mechanism of pure pleasure, much like other mind-altering experiences. Yet in doing so, we have the annoying trait that we try to ascribe "meaning" to it, because we ego-driven beings assign much more importance to ourselves and to each other than we deserve.

Sex is measured, controlled, and marketed now. It's restrained by the bonds of logic and corrupted to the point where it has no meaning any more. "Sex", in the typical "relationship", is really dumbed down.

It used to be the last thing that the social order couldn't touch...that's what made it so powerful...but now it demands conformity. Sex can be enjoyed, but only via socially acceptable "outlets", that is, in a socially sanctioned "relationship", at certain times, at a certain frequency, with certain acts, and they even control what emotions you are SUPPOSED to feel when you have it.

The ONLY truly FREE sex is that which is forbidden or unsanctioned by society. That's why I can appreciate a so-called "slvt" much more than I can appreciate a woman who's having sex in a relationship because it's "what couples are supposed to do". The latter is doing it as an obligation. The former is doing it because she GETS OFF on it.

If that makes sense.

But knowing that, I know that the random nature of "free" sexuality makes it impossible to form a pair-bond based on "romance", as eventually, I will be tempted, and my "girlfriend/wife" will be tempted. I therefore HATE sexuality as much as I LOVE it. Because I know that it will eventually destroy lesser human beings.

And looking for a woman who is capable of affection on a "higher level" is going to be a long quest...one which may not have an end.

I'm not even sure if I can reach "that level" myself.

By the way...I know a lot of these thoughts sound incomplete. I'm not trying to pontificate...I'm working a lot of these things out in my head as I post them. So I do appreciate being challenged by varying viewpoints...even when Iqqi comes in and plays the perennial buzzkill.

Yes squirrelly-poo, you impressed me. Had to go back up and reread the poster name to make sure it was you.

I am a romantic though. I think affairs are romantic. I think jealousy is romantic. Romance is impractical. But without impractical romance you just have practical sex and that's just not as much fun.

 

[jophil28]

I am a romantic though. I think affairs are romantic. I think jealousy is romantic. Romance is impractical. But without impractical romance you just have practical sex and that's just not as much fun.

The "romance" that you revere is merely a swirling brain chemical buzz.
Your adrenals are fukking with you.

Eat more chocolate instead - no condom or Kleenex required.

 

[boomerick]

I'm paraphrasing or ripping someone off but here goes.....

What's more valuable a key that opens many locks or a lock that can be opened with many keys?

Over and Out.