In Study, Fatherhood Leads to Drop in Testosterone

[MatureDJ]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/health/research/13testosterone.html

This makes sense from an evolutionary biological standpoint.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear MDJ,
I thought that article a bit wafery....In general the likelihood that the tribe could depend on the guys getting a deer or some other large animal was pretty iffy....Tim Flannery,a Modern Anthropologist,studied New Guinea Natives,they seldom killed anything worthwhile... in general the fertile Women and the lucky ones with a mother to help,obtained most of the food....Berries,nuts,seeds,mushrooms,roots and whatever.The Men provided the secure Territory for them to gather food in....Lest we get carried away with the notion that we owe it to the Mums,remember Geoffrey Blayneys research on the Cow Creek Aborigines of Victoria,the constant attrition level amongst the Men in defending the Boundaries,was at a similar level to those experienced by British Soldiers in the 1914-1918 War...Horrific!

 

[Lexington]

There's one big problem with this study. Even the authors acknowledge that the study does not account for stress and fatigue, which are both factors that can reduce testosterone levels. Men who are heavily involved in raising children are likely to have both factors at play.

 

[Lexington]

Gotta love how the authors of the study try to put a politically correct spin on the findings. The methodology is valid and so are the results, but it's quite a leap to infer that men are physiologically wired to help raise the kids. Most anthropological evidence suggests that this was far from the norm in most societies. Historically, it was the role of the man to provide for the women and children (food, shelter, security) while women cared for the household and did most of the child rearing. This is the case in Western, Eastern, Middle Eastern and African societies. It is only quite recently that men have been expected to contribute to household tasks and with changing diapers etc. In more traditional societies, this is still quite rare.

 

[SecondHalf]

This article made me a bit mad.

This...

“Unfortunately,” Dr. Ellison added, “I think American males have been brainwashed” to believe lower testosterone means that “maybe you’re a wimp, that it’s because you’re not really a man.

“My hope would be that this kind of research has an impact on the American male. It would make them realize that we’re meant to be active fathers and participate in the care of our offspring.”

And this...

“This is part of the guy being invested in the marriage,” said Carol Worthman, an anthropologist at Emory University who also was not involved in the study. Lower testosterone, she said, is the father’s way of saying, “ ‘I’m here, I’m not looking around, I’m really toning things down so I can have good relationships.’ What’s great about this study is it lays it on the table that more is not always better. Faster, bigger, stronger — no, not always.”

I would like to print this article, role it up into a tight column and give my ex an enema of enlightenment.

As men play dad and cast the perception of sensitive being, women (qualifier: my sample) salivate for the testosterone oozing meatball around the corner.

SH

 

[Colossus]

As men play dad and cast the perception of sensitive being, women (qualifier: my sample) salivate for the testosterone oozing meatball around the corner.

And therein lies the irony.

I read the abstract and Times article...interesting findings but not altogether shocking. The problem with studies like this is that they can only demonstrate a correlation, not a causation. There are a lot of other variables that can affect testosterone which are virtually impossible to control in a study---sleep, diet, exercise intensity, work influences, wife influences, etc. 624 men is a large enough sample to demonstrate a trend, and I dont think it's unreasonable to expect a man's testosterone will drop a bit within a family life...because there isnt much room for aggression and competition in a (healthy) family.

 

[Strelok]

I'm not a scientist but it doesnt need Einstein to say that living 24/7 at home means:

Taking order from a woman, limit your anger to her and to some bratty kid no matter how stupidly they behave ,being nice to the neightbour even if he still has your screw from last summer, accurately avoid violent movies on tv and stick to the strictest clean language policy all of this amplified when some stupid fat ass friend of your wife comes.
And no you cant say "no" to all this crap, the law think otherwise.

This alone would turn a lion into a sheep, ti those enlighted academic the rest of the talking, I'm sure their wives will let them write something more once they are done cleaning the table.

“Unfortunately,” Dr. Ellison added, “I think American males have been brainwashed” to believe lower testosterone means that “maybe you’re a wimp, that it’s because you’re not really a man.

The only brainwashed one is this idiot, as if taking out power from an engine would be something good so that engine fits better for the traffic.

 

[zekko]

it's quite a leap to infer that men are physiologically wired to help raise the kids. .

I've heard of this drop in testosterone before, it's supposedly part of pair bonding. The explanation I heard previously was that the testosterone dropped to decrease the chances of the male straying and abandoning the mother and child.

Because, as you note, he was supposed to stay to provide food, shelter, and security for his family. As opposed to changing diapers and the like.

If the testosterone drops more when the man is more involved in nurturing the child, maybe it's simply because being close to the child reinforces his urge to stay and provide for the family.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear All,
Seems we are all massively underimpressed maybe as well to remember the Thread we discussed about Women getting the need to change Partners every four years...some even saw in this behaviour,a Genetic advantage to the Tribe....Men nurturing kids?...I put it in the same basket with,Globalisation,multi-culturism,positive discrimination and feminism,all changes that seem to have destroyed the very People who dragged our Society out of the Primeval ooze,and still keep it chugging along,You and Me...To come back to Testosterone,Being of Scots and Irish ancestry,I remember reading with interest,of my ancestors living in little groups of maybe seven or so couples with the Older Women and kids as hangers on...the Fertile Women were held in common,now that actually appeals...might have interesting influence on our Testosterone levels,LOL.

 

[zekko]

Being of Scots and Irish ancestry,I remember reading with interest,of my ancestors living in little groups of maybe seven or so couples with the Older Women and kids as hangers on...the Fertile Women were held in common,now that actually appeals...

Honestly, I'm not so sure I find the idea of banging the same women as the rest of the guys in the circle all that appealing. Especially back in those days when they didn't have condoms *shudder*.

"Angus, go slaughter me a sheep. I need to make another sheath for my penis."

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Oxytocin plays a critical part in regulating a man's testosterone levels. Just post-orgasm, the human body flushes oxytocin into the bloodstream to balance out the endorphin and dopamine high. While this hormone also promotes feelings of trust and comfort, it also serves to 'calm the guy down' sexually. Oxytocin is a testosterone buffer in men, thus resulting in you going limp for a while after busting a nut. From an evolutionary perspective this makes sense in that it ensures the sperm deposited stays in a woman's vagina, thus increasing fertility odds, instead of being shoveled out by a still erect penis. Not only that, but oxytocin serves as a 'pair bonding' hormone in that it fosters feelings of protective trust in men. Oxytocin discharge in humans is also triggered by pheromonal and environmental prompts.

One thing the article isn't addressing is that even low T men still possess 12-17 times the amount of testosterone women do. Even IF fatherhood could be linked directly to low testosterone levels, dad's muscularity is still more significant than mom's, dad's voice is still lower, dad's still got to shave his face, and dad still wants to fight & ƒuck.

 

[Lexington]

I've heard of this drop in testosterone before, it's supposedly part of pair bonding. The explanation I heard previously was that the testosterone dropped to decrease the chances of the male straying and abandoning the mother and child.

Because, as you note, he was supposed to stay to provide food, shelter, and security for his family. As opposed to changing diapers and the like.

If the testosterone drops more when the man is more involved in nurturing the child, maybe it's simply because being close to the child reinforces his urge to stay and provide for the family.

The only thing this study can tell us is that in Cebu, Philippines, in a sample size of about 600 men, there was a statistically significant drop in testosterone levels after men became fathers and this was more pronounced in those who were more directly involved in child rearing. It is probably generalizable to other populations but further studies would be necessary to demonstrate that.

Based on the information at hand, we can't determine the cause of the testosterone drop. There are a number of possible explanations for this. This claim that men drop in testosterone because they are physiologically programmed to help with child rearing is a hypothesis. Studies like this cannot tell us anything about the underlying physiology of a medical phenomenon. They are quite popular because they are relatively cheap and simple to conduct and they can bring in a lot of publicity. But they can only tell us what, they can't tell us why.

Some of the folks quoted are trying to put a politically correct spin on this data. They are saying this means that women were "meant" to get help with child rearing. In one quote, a woman claimed that this study effectively dispelled the notion that women stayed at home while men went hunting. What nonsense! The same data could be used to support the argument for traditional gender roles.