I just figured out the deadlift form

[spesmilitis]

Ok, i'm gonna sound stupid(considering i've been doing deadlifts since june), but: I just got the deadlift form down. But guys, hear me out!

'technically' I've been doing it right the whole time. I followed these rules of form:
-keep nuetral arch
-chest out, shoulders back
-hips down
-bar slides up body
-vertical distance between hips and shoulder only increases, not decreases (Not the total distance between the hips and shoulders, but the verticle distance straight from the floor).

The Last one was giving me the most difficulty. It was very hard not to 'cheat' on the last rule. The cause of this was, misinterpreting the second to last rule. I found out: The bar does not just slide up the shins, it digs deep and scrapes against them on the way up. That is because you are not only pulling the bar up, but pulling it back (veritically) too.

What lead to me to the shins principle was figuring out how to follow the last rule of the lift of rules of form above. "vertical distance been hips and shoulder on increases, not decreases". I then came up with this principle:

Right from the start of the deadlift, try to get your upperbody completly verticle as soon as possible

This forces your shoulders go to up faster than your hips. This is because when your upperbody is completly verticle, the distance from the hips to your shoulders is the greatest. BTW, your upper body won't become completly verticle untill the end of the deadlift, but trying to do it will make your form right. Doing it this way makes your shoulders rise faster than your hips, and also pulls the bar close to you.

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Doing deadlifts this way also puts alot more pressure on your shins. Forcing your body verticle right from the start of the deadlift adds a verticle force to the lift, and the bar scrapes up against the shins. The first time I did deadlifts the right way, my shins were a little bloody. BTW, Don't worry about your shins, there are susposed to get banged up. Thats how muy thai pple develop shins of steel.

I remember WBA reccomended that the shins are susposed get banged up a while ago:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=105526&highlight=deadlift

I was like, 'hmmm, I don't get banged up shins, I must have special porportions'. Boy, I was off.
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BTW, I'm sure im not the only one who was doing these imperfectly. No one pointed out that his guy was doing em imperfectly either.

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114809&highlight=deadlift

You'll notice at the beggining of the deadlift, he raises his hips first before lifting the bar. The cuases him to put alittle 'good morning' into the exersice since his upperbody still had distance to travel by the time his legs were near straight. The distance verticle (not actual distance) between the hips and shoulders only increases during the deadlift. I'm sure if WBA had seen the video, he would've pointed it out.
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Back to putting 'good morning' into the exersice. DO NOT 'good morning' the weight on the deadlift or squat. Look at the link below:

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=507148

Good mornings are done with weight much lighter than the deadlift or squat. Good mornings with weight as heavy as your squat or deadlift will mess up your nuetral arche and consequently your lower back.
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Remember Right from the start of the deadlift, try to get your upperbody completly verticle as soon as possible. The weight has become lighter since I've been doing it this way. I also never have to worry about form anymore. I used to think about form all the time. By following this princple, I automattically do everything right.
Look at my workout journal in the next weeks, you'll definatly see some major PR's for DL's

 

[simon]

You can't good morning a deadlift but you can stiff-leg it. I don't start getting my back verticle until the bar has met my knees.

Mark Rippetoe would also say you don't need to keep your shoulders back. Read http://www.crossfit.com/journal/2006/11/a_new_rather_long_analysis_of.html for more info. I switched to deadlifting from the position outlined in Rippetoe's article, and it feels much more comfortable + allows me to deadlift more.

Other than that...good info.

 

[mrRuckus]

The bar does not just slide up the shins, it digs deep and scrapes against them on the way up.

It most certainly does not.

 

[6-heads lewis]

i find deadlift form to be dependant on physique moreso than others.

The exrx site and Ellis book has them pretty much squatting the bar up, I tried that and had lower back pain and awful lifts.

the way I do it is pretty much exactly all the things you said one shouldnt do. bar in front of shins not scraping, hips high, almost like a stiff legged. I saw a video of a MASSIVE guy with a long unpronounacble name lifting an insane amount of weight using my form (make no mistakes he copied me!).

you have to find your own niche with the deadlift, it depends on your build.

 

[6-heads lewis]

mrruckus,

am i crazy or do you go out of your way to be disagreeable in just about every thread? im not being insulting, i actually enjoy reading your posts for that exact reason.

 

[spesmilitis]

It most certainly does not.

"you have to find your own niche with the deadlift, it depends on your build."

Yes, I did not consider that at all. My legs are long compared to my body, see my shins/knee do stick out more.

I feel that the deadlift form should revolve around maintaining the neutral arch in the back. The neutral arch is easiest to maintain when the upper body is verticle. When your upperbody is relativly verticle when in the position where you squat down to hold the bar, the shoulder blades are going to be behind the shins, and thus the bar will dig into your shins.

Before I did it this way, I felt that I could lift more weight by keeping my hips high as lewis suggested. That is not the case when I do it my way. I highly reccomend your try it before knocking it.

 

[Hockey Playa]

ok i just realized i have been doing deads wrong for about 7 months.......do u think ive done some serious damage to my back?? or just worked different muscles?

 

[spesmilitis]

ok i just realized i have been doing deads wrong for about 7 months.......do u think ive done some serious damage to my back?? or just worked different muscles?

Im not the best expert on this, but I think as long as your back feels fine, nothing too bad happened. I certainly hope this is the case, cuz i've been doing em 'wrong' for a while now. The only problem with me was more of a tension problem. The day after dl's I felt the need to strech my lower back a lot. The tension has been reduced since I've been doing it this way.

The different muscels you worked are probably some of the muscels emphasized in the stiff-legged deadlift. The stiff-legged dl is susposed to be done at a lighter weight than the regular dl because its hard to keep the neutral arche since you lean over.

 

[spesmilitis]

Here, this adresses all the arguments made in this thread (me, MrRuckus, 6-head, simon).

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459744

"Mistake #5: Not pulling the bar back

The deadlift is all about leverage and positioning. Visualize a teeter totter. What happens when the weight on one end is coming down? The other end goes up. So if your body is falling backward, what happens to the bar? It goes up! If your weight is falling forward the bar will want to stay down. So if you weigh 250 pounds and you can get your bodyweight to work for you, it would be much like taking 250 pounds off the bar. For many natural deadlifters this is a very instinctive action. For others it has to be trained.

Proper positioning is important here. If you're standing too close to the bar it'll have to come over the knee before you can pull back, thus going forward before it goes backward. If your shoulders are in front of the bar at the start of the pull, then the bar will want to go forward, not backward. If your back isn't arched the bar will also want to drift forward. "


"Mistake #6: Keeping the shins too close to the bar

I'm not too sure where this started but I have a pretty good idea. Many times the taller, thinner lifters are the best pullers and they do start with the bar very close to their shins. But if you look at them from the sides they still have their shoulders behind the bar when they pull. This is just not possible to achieve with a thicker lifter.

If a thicker lifter with a large amount of body mass — be it muscle or fat — were to line the bar up with his shins, you'd see he would have an impossible time getting the shoulders behind the bar. Remember you need to pull the bar back toward you, not out and away from you."

My legs are very long compared to my body, so my shins will be very close and thats why I have to scrape. MrRuckus probably doesn't have the leg:height ratio I have, so his proper deadlift form keeps more distance from the shins

" I see it all the time. Someone will say, "Did you see his deadlift?" Then the other guy will comment, "Yeah, and he stiff-legged the thing." Am I telling you to stiff leg all your deadlifts? No, not at all.

All I want you to do is look at your hip position at the start of the lift when you pull and watch how much your hips move up before the weight begins to break the floor. This is wasted movement and does nothing except wear you out before the pull. The closer you can keep your hips to the bar when you pull, the better the leverages are going to be. "

 

[simon]

Here, this adresses all the arguments made in this thread (me, MrRuckus, 6-head, simon).

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459744

"Mistake #5: Not pulling the bar back

The deadlift is all about leverage and positioning. Visualize a teeter totter. What happens when the weight on one end is coming down? The other end goes up. So if your body is falling backward, what happens to the bar? It goes up! If your weight is falling forward the bar will want to stay down. So if you weigh 250 pounds and you can get your bodyweight to work for you, it would be much like taking 250 pounds off the bar. For many natural deadlifters this is a very instinctive action. For others it has to be trained.

Proper positioning is important here. If you're standing too close to the bar it'll have to come over the knee before you can pull back, thus going forward before it goes backward. If your shoulders are in front of the bar at the start of the pull, then the bar will want to go forward, not backward. If your back isn't arched the bar will also want to drift forward. "


"Mistake #6: Keeping the shins too close to the bar

I'm not too sure where this started but I have a pretty good idea. Many times the taller, thinner lifters are the best pullers and they do start with the bar very close to their shins. But if you look at them from the sides they still have their shoulders behind the bar when they pull. This is just not possible to achieve with a thicker lifter.

If a thicker lifter with a large amount of body mass — be it muscle or fat — were to line the bar up with his shins, you'd see he would have an impossible time getting the shoulders behind the bar. Remember you need to pull the bar back toward you, not out and away from you."

My legs are very long compared to my body, so my shins will be very close and thats why I have to scrape. MrRuckus probably doesn't have the leg:height ratio I have, so his proper deadlift form keeps more distance from the shins

" I see it all the time. Someone will say, "Did you see his deadlift?" Then the other guy will comment, "Yeah, and he stiff-legged the thing." Am I telling you to stiff leg all your deadlifts? No, not at all.

All I want you to do is look at your hip position at the start of the lift when you pull and watch how much your hips move up before the weight begins to break the floor. This is wasted movement and does nothing except wear you out before the pull. The closer you can keep your hips to the bar when you pull, the better the leverages are going to be. "

In the comments section of the link I posted, Mark Rippetoe is told of this article by Dave Tate. Rippetoe rings up Tate and talks to him about his deadlifting article. Result:

"The comments from Westside regarding "shoulders behind the bar" were intended to be cues for coaching, not a biomechanical analysis of the lift. Dave Tate explained this to me in our conversation. He agrees with me about scapula position off the floor, and anyone can look at videos of heavy deadlifts and make this observation themselves. I feel that a good understanding of the mechanics of the movement allows you to form your own cues, and is the most useful tool for developing correct technique." - Mark Rippetoe

 

[bud_2005]

My lower back always hurts when I deadlift I just can't get the form down.

 

[Chillisauce]

Something which helped my deadlift was this bud_2005:

Make sure you are pushing through the heel of your feet, not the toes.

 

[Throttle]

deadlifts are so glorious that i advise anyone who struggles with them to do whatever it takes -- find an expert (or 3) to fix your form, try lifting a much lower weight, videotape yourself & post it online so others can make fun of you -- anything to get them down right.

 

[mrRuckus]

Don't let your hip angle change until the bar reaches your knees. You're stiff legging it otherwise. And you use your glutes/hamstrings to get the bar to go up past your knees, not your lower back. You don't pull back; you bring your hips forward. Your lower back does nothing but protect the spine and provide stability. Squeeze your glutes and hump the bar.

mrruckus,

am i crazy or do you go out of your way to be disagreeable in just about every thread? im not being insulting, i actually enjoy reading your posts for that exact reason.

I hardly have to go out of my way when people say such ridiculous things. Not in this thread, but usually.

My legs are very long compared to my body, so my shins will be very close and thats why I have to scrape. MrRuckus probably doesn't have the leg:height ratio I have, so his proper deadlift form keeps more distance from the shins

Nah, it rolls up my shins. It just doesn't gouge and whatever else the quote i was replying to said. For it to gouge i'd think you'd have to purposely be pulling the bar into your shin.

 

[DarthJuan]

I think my deadlift form has been off too.

I just figured out yesterday why my chin ups and bent over rows weren't having much effect also. I've mostly been using my arms and shoulders to do the lifting.

 

[Drum&Bass]

I usually guage deadlifting by the angle's a persons body makes.

For myself with light weight I pull back and have the weight drag up my shins and legs.
Heavier weights bang against my knee (which hurts alot) so the bar is directly beneath my shoulder blades.

Pulling back on the bar allows you to use more of your legs.
Having your shoulders above the bar (pulling out and up) puts more stress on the back when lifting (which is not harmful as long as you keep the natural curve of your spine).

Both ways are correct, I think you just have to do what feels the most comfortable at that moment in time to get the weight up. (I could be wrong but thats what I notice when I lift).

 

[spesmilitis]

Nah, it rolls up my shins. It just doesn't gouge and whatever else the quote i was replying to said. For it to gouge i'd think you'd have to purposely be pulling the bar into your shin.

Now that I'm older and wiser, I agree with you.