Gaining Weight

[Rubato]

I have been following a slightly tweaked version of the diet EFFORT suggested about 90% of the time since before Christmas. It's about 3100 kcals, about 40% protein, and 30% fat and carbs 6 meals a day. I've also been diligently lifting heavy 3 times a week using the routine you guys said was good.

I had gained about 10lbs in this time, but somehow have lost 2 pounds. I'm at about 169 right now. I don't have a quantitative way to measure my muscle mass. My scale allegedly gives a fat percentage reading and I have no idea how accurate it is, but it says I've gone down from 7.6 to 5.8. And I have been losing fat.

It is also important to note I take rx'd 15-20mg Adderall/Dexedrine or 30-40mg Ritalin daily. This may be the biggest reasons why I'm not gaining much weight.

My lifts are all increasing. I feel sore after I'm done exercising. I'm not doing any cardio at all, unless you count going to the rock climbing gym... but I don't think that's aerobic as much as it is anaerobic.

So, maybe I'm just being impatient. I don't know. I've never eaten this much before in my life and thought I would be getting a little bit more than an 8 pound increase in about 5 weeks. That's just a bit more than half a pound a week.

So what should I do here? Eat even more? Or is this just the level of progress I should expect? It would be hard to find more time to spend in the gym, and I'm not sure that's necessary. I'm there about 3 hours a week. I don't want to run any gear right now since I'm on the stims.

 

[wait_out]

Always get your advice from experts

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain

We live in an instant gratification society and are constantly bombarded with amazing claims; while this is probably most true in the world of weight loss, it’s not much different when it comes to muscle gain.

Magazines advertise 20 pounds or rock hard muscle in a mere 8-10 weeks, a supplement promises 5 lbs of muscle in 3 days or whatever; all around we see claims of rapid gains in muscle mass. Sadly, this is all basically bull****. Yeah, with glycogen loading or creatine you can increase lean body mass (not the same as muscle mass) fairly rapidly but beyond that, skeletal muscle actually grows fairly slowly....

How slowly?

On average, a natural male doing everything right will be doing very well to gain 1/2 of pound muscle per week. A female might gain half that or about 1/2 pound muscle every 2 weeks.

Let’s put that in perspective: over a full year of training, assuming the trainee is doing everything right, that’s 26 pounds of the good stuff for men (13 pounds for women). Which, if you think about it, actually isn’t that awful. It’s simply awful compared to what people think they are going to get based on the false promises in the magazines (or the claims of drug using bodybuilders).

That assumes that half-pound is gained week-in, week-out for the entire year. Oddly, and somewhat tangentially, it usually doesn’t work that way. Trainees may go a long time with no measurable gains and then wake up several pounds heavier seemingly overnight. I have no idea why, that’s just how it usually works.

I’d note that, under the right conditions (usually underweight high school kids), much faster rates of gain are often seen or reported. But these tend to be exceptions to the rule more than the norm and since I’m usually writing for the average male trainee who’s not 15 years old with raging hormones, I don’t consider those values very illustrative. And, occasionally, when the stars are right, and everything clicks, a true one pound per week of muscle mass gain may be seen for short periods. But again, that tends to be the exception.

Let me reiterate: the average male trainee is doing well to gain about 1/2 pound muscle per week, 2 pounds per month or about 24-26 pounds per year. I’d note that that will generally only happen in the first year of training and things slow down after that. A female may be gaining about half that much, 1 pound per month of actual muscle tissue or 10-12 pounds per year. I know it sucks but that’s reality.

Lots more on that website if you're after answers.

 

[Rubato]

Thank you, both of you.

Espi, when I look in the mirror, I do notice that I'm getting bigger, but it's a very subtle thing. I guess I'm expecting too much too fast.

The one thing that's bothering me though is that when I wake up in the morning, I generally look like I always do. But I eat such a large amount of food that it distends my abdomen to the point that I look like I'm about pregnant by about 1 in the afternoon! It's actually pretty funny looking because nothing else on me looks fat, I've just got this big protrusion from my mid section. It's like the rest of my body hasn't caught up with the size of my stomach.

I'm assuming that's something normal and that I'll just have to develop a bigger chest in order for it not to be such an issue.

On another note, I couldn't see my abs when I first posted here last November, and since I have gained some fat, I still can't see them. The website Waitout suggest cycling periods of bulking and cutting so that you don't get too fat. Since this is going to take a long time anyways, I don't see why that would be an issue.

EFFORT may be the guy to ask this to since he gave me the bulking diet, but what is a good cutting diet and how often should you cycle between a bulk and a cut? I was thinking 3 months bulking, 1 month cutting. You guys would know better than me though. What do you think?

 

[Fuglydude]

I have been following a slightly tweaked version of the diet EFFORT suggested about 90% of the time since before Christmas. It's about 3100 kcals, about 40% protein, and 30% fat and carbs 6 meals a day. I've also been diligently lifting heavy 3 times a week using the routine you guys said was good.

I had gained about 10lbs in this time, but somehow have lost 2 pounds. I'm at about 169 right now. I don't have a quantitative way to measure my muscle mass. My scale allegedly gives a fat percentage reading and I have no idea how accurate it is, but it says I've gone down from 7.6 to 5.8. And I have been losing fat.

It is also important to note I take rx'd 15-20mg Adderall/Dexedrine or 30-40mg Ritalin daily. This may be the biggest reasons why I'm not gaining much weight.

My lifts are all increasing. I feel sore after I'm done exercising. I'm not doing any cardio at all, unless you count going to the rock climbing gym... but I don't think that's aerobic as much as it is anaerobic.

So, maybe I'm just being impatient. I don't know. I've never eaten this much before in my life and thought I would be getting a little bit more than an 8 pound increase in about 5 weeks. That's just a bit more than half a pound a week.

So what should I do here? Eat even more? Or is this just the level of progress I should expect? It would be hard to find more time to spend in the gym, and I'm not sure that's necessary. I'm there about 3 hours a week. I don't want to run any gear right now since I'm on the stims.

Quite frankly you shouldn't even think about gear unless you've been training consistently for 3-5 years and have made substantial progress... I gained 50 lbs naturally before I used.

As someone who's been lifting for over 13 years now, I can tell you that 5 lbs in 8 weeks is reasonably good progress for someone with your lifestyle. YOu have a pretty high level of stress w/ academics... and you're also on quite a bit of stims for sure.

Remember Rome wasn't built in a day, and as Espi said as long as you stay consistent you'll be amazed at how much progress you can make 1, 2 or 5 years down the line. I know its hard to be patient for gains, but trust me you'll get there... just focus on staying consistent.

I suspect that your calories may be inadequate for growth. To be brutally honest 3100 calories is CUTTING calories for me... I would actually lose weight on that many calories if I kept up my current work out regimen. I had one of our dieticians do an indirect calorimetry assay on me where they measure BMR (basal metabolic rate) based on quantifying amounts of oxygen consumed and CO2 eliminated. They put sort of like a bubble thing around your head. Apparently I burn 2400 calories just lying around on my ass not doing anything! With an exercise program and day-to-day living, my maintainance calories are easily at 3500! You're 169 at around the same height as me... I'm around 20 lbs heavier, and yet, I KNOW that I'd need over 4000 calories to grow.

Also the bodyfat thing on your scale is totally inaccurate. 5-6% bodyfat is what bodybuilders have 4-6 weeks out from competition when they're shredded w/ vascularity in their lower abs, thighs, etc. If you're that lean then that's some crazy stuff!!!

You may need to train one more day/week... I dunno. Sometimes the body takes more of a push to grow than we realise. Again, don't be disheartened as you've made substantial progress in the last couple of months. To give you an idea, I've gained 20-25 lbs in the last 1.5 years, and I'm not a beginner. As the guys are saying, stay consistent, and think about increasing your calories or maybe adding one more training day, or perhaps changing around somethings in your program that don't "feel" right. Hypertrophy is about really feeling a muscle working and pumping blood into it. As a beginner its crucial to lift heavy and be strong as well, but don't neglect this aspect of hypertrophy.

I personally don't think you should think about cutting at this point. If you're worried about your conditioning pick up a sport or do interval cardio. I think you should do at least a year or what I call "grunt" work to build up a good muscular base before you try and cut down. Remember, you'll only look good cut down if you have a substantial amount of muscle underneath. Now is the time to build that muscle. Don't worry about the abdominal distention... I know the feeling, but unfortunately its a part of the game for those who wanna put on muscle mass.

 

[Rubato]

YOu have a pretty high level of stress w/ academics... and you're also on quite a bit of stims for sure.

There's nothing I can do about either of those. I take the stims for quality of life reasons. The long and the short of it is that I have an REM sleep disorder that causes me to get about 10% of the REM sleep I should be getting. My neurologist says there's not an effective way to treat the underlying issue and I've tried a laundry list of anti-depressants, benzo's, Z-drugs, and less controlled stims. That's something I'm really regretful of because I don't want to take them. It makes me nervous to take such stimulatory medication that has killed people and screws with a very important neural pathway. But when I think about what I feel like without them and on drug holidays (after the withdrawal is over), from a quality of life standpoint it's not worth it.

Are there any therapeutic measures you might suggest that would correct the root problem? My dad is a Dr. and could get a copy of the sleep study the guy did and refresh me as to the ultimate pathophysiology of the problem... I think the way the dr. said it was something like that my brain is too active and accidentally brings my brain to a slight arousal once every 2 minutes while I sleep. A psychologist told me a technology called a QEEG might work correct the problem, but that is a very new and untested technology that I'm not sure qualifies as a "science" with the lack of academic research behind. The only clinician in the area who does those said it would cost about $2500 to do it, and I can't justify that on a therapy the guy couldn't even provide an academic study on or even a scientifically proposed mechanism of action to explain or prove how it would help me.

But, I'm always willing to consider something else besides stims. As I said, they make me nervous.

I suspect that your calories may be inadequate for growth.

If you're right, you're right. I know I'm getting minimal results. I had lifted pretty consistently in the past, but before I posted here I had been consistent for about 6 months. From maybe 2009 until last November, I increased my bench from a measly... man I don't know, 75 lbs maybe 3x10? I think it was less than that. To 3x8 175ish. Keep in mind, I was not consistent throughout that whole time. I did not start doing deadlifts until you guys told me to and I didn't start squatting or any other lower body work until maybe this past fall. That was all on a very inconsistent diet that could range from 1600 to 2500 calories depending on what I ate. I didn't keep track of it.

On my current plan I do feel like I am getting better results. However, first, unless I incorporated a food with a very high GI, I can't envision myself being able to eat another 900 calories! If that's what I have to do, so be it, but my food bill is already pretty expensive. I'm going through eggs, oats, rice, and protein like it's my job. Are my ratio's of protein, carbs, and fat good? Would you just up the caloric intake or change up the ratio's too? And how much? 3500 kcals or 4000 kcals?

The only thing here is I don't want to get fat! I know some dudes go for the GFH approach when it comes to bulking and don't want to turn in to a big guy because I got really fat, even if there's muscle beneath it.

Also the bodyfat thing on your scale is totally inaccurate. 5-6% bodyfat is what bodybuilders have 4-6 weeks out from competition when they're shredded w/ vascularity in their lower abs, thighs, etc. If you're that lean then that's some crazy stuff!!!

I'm not that lean. But I'm still pretty lean. I have suspected the scale is not accurate.

You may need to train one more day/week... I dunno. Sometimes the body takes more of a push to grow than we realise. Again, don't be disheartened as you've made substantial progress in the last couple of months. To give you an idea, I've gained 20-25 lbs in the last 1.5 years, and I'm not a beginner. As the guys are saying, stay consistent, and think about increasing your calories or maybe adding one more training day, or perhaps changing around somethings in your program that don't "feel" right. Hypertrophy is about really feeling a muscle working and pumping blood into it. As a beginner its crucial to lift heavy and be strong as well, but don't neglect this aspect of hypertrophy.

My routine is a 3 day split as follows:

Day 1 Chest and Triceps, all sets 3x8
Bench
Alternate Incline/Decline bench weekly
Skulls
I am planning to add dumbbell flys also and possibly dips

Day 2 Back and Biceps
Dead lifts
Military Press
Wide Grip Pullups
Alternate preacher and dumbbell curls weekly
I am planning to add wrist curls as well

Day 3 Legs and Core
Squats
Decline situps with weight
Leg lifts
Alternate leg extensions and curls weekly
I am planning to add calf raises as well.

These are usually Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, respectively. If I was going to add anything or change anything, what would you change? I am lifting heavy right now. Lately, I have not been getting 8 full reps in each set, sometimes just 6, because the weight is too heavy. When I did dead lifts yesterday in front of the mirror, was doing 265 lbs (a new record) and could only do 6 reps. When I finished each set, my body was red, my veins were popping out of my neck, and it was obvious that it was placing my system under substantial physical stress. When I lift like that, I get in this zone where I literally am not aware of anything else except for the weight and my lifting buddy and I call that beast mode.

It sounds like you're a proponent of strong lifts. Would you change the set and rep pattern to something heavier and lower, like 4 sets of 5... or.

My buddy who is an exercise science major said the above method will increase strength and GH effectively. He said lifting lighter weights (still heavy weights mind you) that are light enough for you to bring down slowly and then explode up with... I can't remember the terms he used, not isotonic, but another word with the suffix tonight. But he said that would be a more effective lifting technique to increase muscle mass and boost test levels.

I don't know. I just want a plan I can apply consistently. Is there a good reason to change what I'm currently doing? I don't really have time for any extra days, but if it's really necessary, I can see what I can do.

Thank you for the thoughtful and detail response man!

You had also posted a response in my journal. Based on those pics you sent me, I'd say I'm between 8% and 10%, closer to 8%, believe it or not. I really think it's the stims. My definition is pretty good for all of my muscle groups, except my abs, and my vascularity is also pretty visible.

As far as the deadlift vs bench difference goes, I have only been deadlifting for 2-3 months and benching for 2-3 years. My deadlift is going up, as I said I did 265lbs yesterday. I have been weary of going really heavy with it though because I have not found anyone who I feel really knows what they're talking about who can critique my form. This is something I've taught myself how to do from watching youtube videos and do not want to end up as one of those dudes who gets shut down from lifting for months (or longer) because they f*'d up their back. I think my form is at least okay, but I don't know whether or not it's good. 265lbs is actually probably where I should be there. I was pretty blown out after that. I know that my lats and the rest of my back and legs have always been under worked. Until recently, I always thought that if you wanted to look good on the beach, all you need to do was curl and bench a few times a week in the gym. My bench is somewhere around 195lbs right now.

 

[Rubato]

I've increased the diet a bit. 1 extra egg, an extra ounce of oats and brown rice, and instead of 21 ounces of meat a day, 24. I've also added some sort of fruit to my first meal, like an apple, orange, blueberries, whatever I have at the house. I haven't done the math to figure out what sort of an increase that will be calorie wise and with the percentages of fat, protein, and carbs... I didn't make up my excel spreadsheet very clearly and I think I'm just gonna have to make it up again. If you don't think that's enough of an increase, let me know what else I can add.

 

[EvilAgenda]

Rubato, keep it up. You gonna be the next Pook.

 

[Kerpal]

Stop making things complicated, read Starting Strength, switch to the beginner's program, and start drinking a gallon of whole milk a day.

And don't even THINK about steroids until you've added about 300 lbs to your deadlift.

 

[marmel75]

Thank you, both of you.

Espi, when I look in the mirror, I do notice that I'm getting bigger, but it's a very subtle thing. I guess I'm expecting too much too fast.

The one thing that's bothering me though is that when I wake up in the morning, I generally look like I always do. But I eat such a large amount of food that it distends my abdomen to the point that I look like I'm about pregnant by about 1 in the afternoon! It's actually pretty funny looking because nothing else on me looks fat, I've just got this big protrusion from my mid section. It's like the rest of my body hasn't caught up with the size of my stomach.

I'm assuming that's something normal and that I'll just have to develop a bigger chest in order for it not to be such an issue.

On another note, I couldn't see my abs when I first posted here last November, and since I have gained some fat, I still can't see them. The website Waitout suggest cycling periods of bulking and cutting so that you don't get too fat. Since this is going to take a long time anyways, I don't see why that would be an issue.

EFFORT may be the guy to ask this to since he gave me the bulking diet, but what is a good cutting diet and how often should you cycle between a bulk and a cut? I was thinking 3 months bulking, 1 month cutting. You guys would know better than me though. What do you think?

Bulking and Cutting are popular, but IMHO they are not optimal methods. t is NOT good to be playing yo-yo with your body in that manner. You CAN build muscle and get leaner at the same time by properly cycling nutrients and following the right lifting program. Elliott Hulse of Lean Hybrid Muscle is a big proponent of this, and Rob Regish of "The Blueprint" is also. I mainly utilize the Blueprint, which is pretty amazing in both size and strength gains and mix in some stuff from LHM...

If you are strictly looking to gain muscle mass, and you are lifting heavy, you may actually want to cut it down to twice a week. Why? Because your body grows muscle when it is resting, not while working out. If you are lifting heavy, your body will need more time to recover and it maqy be counterproductive to add a 3rd day in. With lifting weights, many times less is more. It is counterintuitive in a lot of ways, much like dealing with women. Also, cut out the isolation exercises and focus on compounds. Those are whtat will make a difference the quickest as they work every muscle group in your body or most of them. Compound exercises are things like Bench Press/Decline(I can't flat bench because I tear/strain my pec very often, I have to decline---which in some ways is a better lift), Clean & Press, Deadlifts, Squats, Weighted Chins/Pullups...

People are so focused on isolation exercises like bicep curls and tricep kickbacks, but fail to realize that you could do those til the cows come home and not gain as much muscle size by doing deads and weighted pullups. Deads will also give you massive traps and front delts.

So for instance, Day 1 you would do Bench Presses and then you could follow those with weighted dips which will work both chest and triceps, or close grip bench and then some weighted chins/pullups.

Day 2 Squats supersetted with Hamstring Curls and then followed by deadlifts. Prepare to puke after the first time doing this...

Currently I run a 5 day split focusing on working out no longer than 45 minutes at a time(to blunt the release of cortisol that occurs after you hit the 1 hour mark) and do 1 compound lift followed by a timed 20 minute EDT block. EDT stands for Escalated Density Training and involves doing more work and/or with heavier weights in the same amount of time. You pick 2 exercises and then do as many alternating sets as possible in 20 minutes trying to do 5 reps each set. You keep "score" by counting how many sets of 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 reps you have done in the 20 minutes, then you tally it up and calculate the reps and weight lifted. You then try to beat the score next week. It is grueling and will really up your conditioning level fast.

Here is what I do(my start of the week is Wednesday due to my schedule)

Wednesday: Decline Bench then 20 min EDT Block of Weighted Dips(40 lb DB)/1 Arm Rows(80 lb DB)

Thursday: Squats followed by 20 min EDT Block of DB Squat/Push/Presses(40 lb DB) and DB Swings(70 lb DB)

Friday: 30 minute Farmers Walks with DBs carrying them as long as possible before having to drop them. This is literally one of the worst things I have ever done. I am up to walking with 40 lb DBs now and have gotten up to 6 minutes before having to put them down. Forearms, Front Delts and Arms feel like jello after finishing. Builds serious forearm strength and is a functional conditioning exercise also. The body was not meant to do wrist curls, it was meant to pick up and carry things...this is a tremendous way to build forearm size/strength

Saturday: OFF

Sunday: Clean/Presses(155 lbs) followed by 20 min EDT Block of Weighted Chins/Pulls and Decline Pushups(feet on a bench hands on ground...makes them harder)

Monday: High Rep Deadlifts(5 sets of 12 reps) with minimal rest. This turns into a cardio workout REAL fast when you are repping 335 lbs 60 times in under 30 minutes...

EDT blocks allow you to build muscle while shredding fat MUCH more effectively than cardio, because you are combining both an anaerobic state in the body(lifting weights) with an aerobic state(increased heart rate) from non-stop reps. It is also called "Hybrid" cardio because it gets the heart rate up(actually higher in many cases) like cardio does, but you are also lifting weights as well.

Make sure you are ingesting Carbs/Protein immediately after working out in roughly a 8:5 ratio...ie 80g Carbs to 50g Protein...no fat in your post workout shake...

Stats for me just for comparison sake:
5' 8" tall 205 lbs, 13% BF Fat Track Gold calipers(down from 31% when I started 1.5 years ago)
1RM: Decline 335 lbs, Squat 525 lbs, Dead 450 lbs
Chest 50", Waist 34.5", Arms 17.5", Quads 28", Calves 18"

 

[marmel75]

You can also try adding in static contraction holds(SCT) which Pete Prisco is a huge proponent of. In his research he claims the optimal range of motion for muscle growth is between very little and none at all, and that heavier weights will cause muscle growth much quicker than doing more reps/sets at lower weights.

I can tell you from personal experience that these DEFINITELY should have a place in virtually everyone's lifting arsenal, as they give you a muscle denseness/hardness that is virtually impossible to get otherwise. They also tend to "explode" the muscles in a short amount of time, ie very quick noticeable size gains.

Basically all you do is press and hold the most amount of weight you can for between 5-15 seconds. I usually utilize a power rack and set the stopper just below my full arm extension, then do Bench and Close Grip Bench holds(585 lbs on Bench and 475 lbs on Close Grip are my maxes so far) focusing on doing the heaviest amount of weight possible for 5 seconds. If you are able to hold for 15 seconds, you are using too light a weight and should increase and try again. Do 2 or 3 sets of these and you will get a feeling that you never have had before...feels like every muscle fiber just got exhausted, yet you can still do other exercises after this(dips, etc).

You can utilize this with Bench, Close Grip Bench, Military Presses and Leg Presses. Excellent, excellent way to gain denseness and size...it has also been shown after doing these, the body releases huge amounts of growth hormone in response to the massive weight being handled. What is cool is you should be able to increase the weight each week about 15-20% as the body adapts pretty quickly to this...

 

[Kerpal]

Squat 525 lbs, Dead 450 lbs

Squat deeper.

 

[marmel75]

Squat deeper.

If I go any deeper my ass will hit the ground...

 

[Kerpal]

Then why is your deadlift so low? With a 525 full squat, you should be pulling around 600... assuming these are unequipped numbers.

 

[marmel75]

Then why is your deadlift so low? With a 525 full squat, you should be pulling around 600... assuming these are unequipped numbers.

I honestly don't know and that has often perplexed me too, because I should be lifting more...Currently with my deads, I am doing high reps with little rest in between(5 sets of 12 at 335 lbs in about 15-20 minutes). I hammer these reps out with little issue until the last few reps on sets 4 and 5, which by that time it feels like my heart is getting ready to jump out of my chest. For whatever reason, once I get up to 450, its like I get stuck and can't get past it, although I haven't really attempted a 1RM on Deads in a few months...

Dealing with a neck strain right now that has had me being really careful with my lifting so as not to aggravate it, but once that passes I am going to probably try another 1RM and see where I am at...I have been doing a lot of grip work lately with Farmers Walks, Weighted Hang Cleans and Weighted Chins/Pullups so perhaps that will give me some extra boost in the Dead department...