Funny story.. if anyone cares

[backbreaker]

So I'm sitting here... actually this started last night. I was doing my handicapping a race at del mar. I came up with a horse that it just so happens, my GF pretty much trains.. she is the trainers assistant trainer. So she gives me this look like.. "you sure you wanna do that?" I said "why not"... an I showed her why I liked her.. and she laughed.


So about an hour ago, about 30 minutes before the race, she gives me a call, and tells me get on MSN Messanger.. we chat on messanger d urning the day when she's covering at work. She takes the web cam and shows the horse going completely ape**** in the barn. knocking over crap, he was trying to bite my GF when she was putting the saddle on him. I have no idea why he acted like that she ovbiously knew he would.. i don't know if it's a constant thing or what not.. needless to say.. I skipped hte race and I'm glad I did.

I just found out he has a, I think the correct term for it is a dislodged testicale and he needs to be gelded but the owners wont' pay for him to be gelded, and it hurts him when he runs.

 

[spesmilitis]

Poor horse

 

[Last Man Standing]

Isn't this illegal - insider trading, so to speak?

 

[backbreaker]

no because I didn't make a bet. it's no different than if I saw the horse in the post parade and canceled a bet.. whic I have done plenty of times. I just happened to see him 20 mintues before the post parade.

with that said... there is no insider trading in horse racing. the smaller tracks, the trainers make ends meet betting on their own horses, that's why you have to watch the tote closely at tracks like Penn National, Prairie Meadows and espically Suffolk Downs.. if someone told me the mob ran Suffolk downs, I would believe it. **** goes on there I can't even explain.

 

[Last Man Standing]

As you stated, you didn't bet.changed your mind because of your foreknowledge, as provided to you by an insider.

 

[backbreaker]

than I guess it is insider trading, however it's not illegal in betting on horses. Not in the least bit. Morning clockers are on payroll by alot of players who want the inside info on who is doing waht in the morning workouts. Hotwalkers and grooms get tips from guys when they give a winning tip out. There is no SEC in the horse racing industry.. maybe there should be. I could care less because I was making money well before I meet. her.. although she provides an extremely new and interesting point of view on things I couldn't grasp or understand otherwise

 

[Last Man Standing]

So then it is "rigged" by moneyed people having info that the general populace does not have!
Certain horses are in the race with little chance of winning - if you can "weed" thess horses out then your odds of winning are enhanced.

 

[backbreaker]

So then it is "rigged" by moneyed people having info that the general populace does not have!

isn't everything?

As good as I am.. I only win at about a mid 30something percent clip. And there are times when I KNOW I handicapped the race right.

however you have to not be thorwn off by it, but learn to profit in spite of it.. that's the mistake most idots make.. every race isn't rigged.

Certain horses are in the race with little chance of winning - if you can "weed" thess horses out then your odds of winning are enhanced.

every race you should be able to throw out half the field for one reason or antoher. more times than ot in a 10 horse field I can legitly throw out 7 of them. maybe 1 out of 15 times one of thoose will bite me in the ass but I can live with thoose odds. The Kentucky Derby was a 5 horse show with 15 other supcharacters: Curlin, Street Sense, Hard Spun, Nobiz like Shobiz and Scat Daddy. One could say Any Given Saturday but he needed more rest. Becuase I have confidently narrowed the race down to 6 instead of 20.. it's much, mcuh easier for me. Then you go about ranking thoose 6... the ONLY time I make a bet, the ONLY time.. actually the only 2 times I make a bet is when that number 1 horse goes off at high odds for whatever the reason may be, or if I literarly feel that number 1 horse CAN'T loose regardless of odds. that doesnt' happen often but it happens. I had a race like that at Laruel Thursday, the horse was a 6 to 1 morning line and got hammered to 2 to 1 and I still made a nice sized bet.. couldn't see how the horse was going to loose. she was progressing and everything else in the race was going backwards.. plus she was just better.

I don't touch Suffolk Downs with a 10 foot pole anymore. you are better off playing darts blindfolded.

 

[cordoncordon]

I've trained race horses for 18 years, at one point between my bro and I we had about 40 of them. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the amount of betting that goes on by people who own/train their horses is not as high as many think. Don't get me wrong, there were more than a few times that I would bet one of my own horses because I knew if he got a sore knee or hock injected that week, or if he had had a lung infection that had cleared up, or for whatever reason he just trained awesome that week. And some times they won, and many times they still lost lol. Horses are like people, you never really know how they are going to be when it comes to race time. Plus there are so many variables that can occur in a race that can cause a horse to win or lose. DId he get locked in? Blind switch? Parked out? Caught in a speed duel? Or did he sit back and the front end pace was too slow for any closers to win? A million variables go into a horse race.

I can also say that the amount of race fixing that goes on? I could probably count on one hand the number of races I saw fixed in 18 years. It just isn't nearly as prevalent as people think.

As for the horse with the testicle problem, they are called a ridgling when that happens. I've raced a few who had that problem, and most of the time you do want to geld the horse and remove the testicles. THough I've seen a few that have been fine racing with them like that. Odd thing to me is surgery to remove them really isn't that expensive, at most $1000. How can a guy owning race horses not expect to spend a little money to make sure the horse is in the best possible shape?

 

[backbreaker]

I've trained race horses for 18 years, at one point between my bro and I we had about 40 of them. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the amount of betting that goes on by people who own/train their horses is not as high as many think. Don't get me wrong, there were more than a few times that I would bet one of my own horses because I knew if he got a sore knee or hock injected that week, or if he had had a lung infection that had cleared up, or for whatever reason he just trained awesome that week. And some times they won, and many times they still lost lol. Horses are like people, you never really know how they are going to be when it comes to race time. Plus there are so many variables that can occur in a race that can cause a horse to win or lose. DId he get locked in? Blind switch? Parked out? Caught in a speed duel? Or did he sit back and the front end pace was too slow for any closers to win? A million variables go into a horse race.

I can also say that the amount of race fixing that goes on? I could probably count on one hand the number of races I saw fixed in 18 years. It just isn't nearly as prevalent as people think.

As for the horse with the testicle problem, they are called a ridgling when that happens. I've raced a few who had that problem, and most of the time you do want to geld the horse and remove the testicles. THough I've seen a few that have been fine racing with them like that. Odd thing to me is surgery to remove them really isn't that expensive, at most $1000. How can a guy owning race horses not expect to spend a little money to make sure the horse is in the best possible shape?

pretty much nail on the head. It's not like every race is fixed, and all people that work on the back stretch can't wait to bet their horses. a perfect example, PERFECT of why this isn't so was I want to say Feburary 1st when Coco Belle came in 2nd by a head in her first race and came back to the track for the 2nd and when I checked the totet before I left the house to get to Santa Anita park.. and that's an hour drive she was 1/9 with like 15k bet on her to win already.. about 2 hours before the race.

came out and ran a hell of a race and got beat like a red headed stepchild by Magnificance who won with compelete ease.. morale of the storey is even though you might know what you have, you don't know what the other barn has.. Coco Belle just so happened to run into the best filly (under a mile... myabe even over.. who knows) in the country in her first lifetime start.


The woman I'm dating, I won't say which...but she works for a big barn. oen of the better if not one of the best trainers in the country. I've yet to see her make a bet. It's not that prevelent.

Trainers make their money, and assistant trainers for that matter.. not at the betting window.. but the claiming box



Yes the horse is a Ridgeling. Not only that.. the horse is getting overworked.. he's brining home checks.. albeit small ones.. he's a 10x maiden in the lowest possible open level in CA.. and what sucks for him is he 's a VA bred, so unless someone is waiting for Colonial downs to open up, there isn't much value in him... but he's not a BAD horse.. just if the owner had a littl emore patience and would spend a little money he could muster up enough to win one.

 

[cordoncordon]

Back breaker do you want my recommendation?

Buy the ridgling horse. It sounds like he isn't racing the best at the moment and the owner might be willing to get rid of him cheap, especially if he wont spend the money to have the surgery done. So buy him. Have the surgery done. Give him to your girlfriend to train. Not her boss. Her. I'm assuming she has a trainers license? Or she could have her boss go down as trainer. You could own your first horse, and you two could be doing something really fun and interesting...TOGETHER. There is nothing like the excitement of seeing your horse all week in training, getting him ready, and then finally race day arrives and you are nervous as hell. But let me tell you the feeling of watching your horse run across the finish line first is as good as any orgasm you will ever have.

If you don't want the expense of paying a trainer every month (because it is expensive to pay someone to train a race horse) then you buy it, and lease it to her. She pays all the expenses, you pay none, and she gets 80% of the horses winnings, you the the other 20% free and clear.

Back in the day my specialty was buying or claiming horses off of trainers who I knew I could improve upon. One of my firsts ever was a mare named persistance that i claimed for $4800 off of a guy I knew was an idiot. Within a month she was winning the opens and made about $300 k for our stable. I could tell you a million stories like that. Islandecho was a horse I claimed for $6000 when he was a 5 year old. Went on to win over 100 races for me. I miss the little guy.

In Michigan my bro and I were "kinda Important" in the harness racing business in the 90's and early 2000's lol.

 

[backbreaker]

actually.. if you want the whole truth she is his assistant trainer and she operates what goes on at Del mar, as his main base is in Golden Gate/Bay Meadows but he runs horses down at Del mar and the likes as well.. she does actually have her trainers license and used to train on her own but had trouble drumming up clients because she was new to the area.... not a bad win clip either... in the high teens low 20's when she ran em.


If he was my horse I would shorten him up.. he although his pedigree suggests it he's not a 2 turn horse which is what he has been running in. Also.. if they would ship him up north to the fair circuit he would break his maiden in no less than 2 tries.. he's not a BAD horse..


I am starting my own stable.. I'm going ot the keeneland sale in a couple of weeks as a matter of fact and planned on buying my first couple of yearlings there.. i already have some HIP's i'm narrowed down and after Wedsday i'm done betting in preperation for that sale as I need to gather as much info as I possibly can. I'm more interesting in buying fillies as future broodies but there are a couple of yearling colts that intregue me as well.


yeah if you know how to spot a runner and how to spot a bad claimer, there isn't a business more profitable than the claiming game.. You could have bought Laywer Ron 2 years ago for $25k at Turfway... You could have bought Premium Tap once for 80K.. .he has won upwards of 4mil. lava man who is running in the million dollar pacific classic in a couple of hours, and has banked over 4.5 mil, you could have bought for 12k at Stockon I think 4 years ago. i can go on and on..


I'm actually thinking about it, and I will ask my girl when we get back from the track later today what she thinks about him... however one of my first rules to claiming i made was to only purcahse fillies so that if they dont work out I can at least breed them.

 

[cordoncordon]

Breeding is a whole different ballgame. Lots of time, and money is involved. Plus to breed just any old mare to just any old stud is obviously pointless.

For a newbie like you I would stick to the claimers, that includes geldings and studs as well as mare's, and of course buying them privately. Then slowly branch out from there.

Thing with T bred racing compared to harness racing is the harness horses I race could race once a week, up to 40 times a year, so plenty of opportunity to make money. The Tbreds aren't as durable and most only average 15-20 races/year. So for someone new without a lot of financial backing it can be hard at first. Of course on average the purses are higher in T bred racing.

 

[backbreaker]

I've been studying pedigrees and the breeding side of the business, what works and what doesn't for 6 years.. I wouldn't consider myself a newbie in that field. I have a map laid out for what I want to do and what makes fiscal sense and what doesn't. I'm breeding to race not to sale and I know enough about pedigrees not to jump on the hype train of certain stallions.

the money part I'm fine..Again this isn't something that I thought of yesterday.. I was planning this when I left my company.. it's just now coming together and it's "that" time.. it's the sole reason I moved out west.

Thing with T bred racing compared to harness racing is the harness horses I race could race once a week, up to 40 times a year, so plenty of opportunity to make money. The Tbreds aren't as durable and most only average 15-20 races/year. So for someone new without a lot of financial backing it can be hard at first. Of course on average the purses are higher in T bred racing.

you are preaching to the chior my friend.... however it's a little deeper than that. and I will not to take over this forum with our breeding/pedigree talks but the problem, which has increased in the last 20 years, is that talented horses, such as Bold Ruler, Phlaris, Native Dancer, who are considered to be "sires of sires" so to speak (bold ruler is the sire of SEcreteriat, and the Great Sire of Ruffian and Storm Cat), but were unsound.. Ruffian might have been the most unsound filly ever produced... Bold Ruler had his isuses but could be overcame when put with a sound mare... Ruffian's mare was one of the most unsound mares around (But fast as fvck) but to get speed you inbreed to either crosses of the same hrose, or unraced mares which produce talanted but also unsound offspring which go on to produce even more unsound offspring. it's the ultimate trade off..

the problem is, the majority of people aren't shooting for good horses anymore, they are shooting for stallions. Coolmore/tabor didn't pay 16.4 Million dollars for The Green Monkey in hopes he would be a gReat race horse. they could care less if he ever runs. hell at this point he's worth more if he doesn't run. People are looking to catch lighting in a bottle, which is why baby races (2YO races) are more popular than ever.. Saratoga is what it is because of the baby races. How dazzling of a maiden win can your start 2YO have (see Sargent Seattle) to go on and be run 3-4 more times this year, come up with a misterious injury and be sent to the breeding shed in time for the upcoming breeding season.

The AVG T'Bred these days doesn't race 15 times a year...8-9 if is consiered a model of durablity. however, the other part of it is, purses have gotten bigger... Back when... I want to say Citation, won the Triple Crown, he won the Kentucky Derby, won the Preakness.. WENT AND BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF ANOTHER ALLOWNECE FIELD, then a week later won the belmont... he won 4 races in a month. 3 of them classic races.. Because you raced to pay bills. Now if you are good you are racing to pad your Stallion commercial. Unless you are talking The Dubai World Cup, the Bredders Cup, or the Dubai Sheema Class or Duty Free.. the purses for the most part aren't as important when it comes to the big time horses...

Ghostzapper made $22 million at stud last year. He made $3.4 million as a race horse in 3 years. He's only I think 7. Maybe 6.

Giant's Causeway banks over 50 million per year for Coolmore, 200k per live foal (now the fee is private because he's a falure as a sire of sires, but it's over 100k).

Off the top of my head, the only horses to make anywhere i the same ball park of that on the track are Cigar (9.9 million), Invasor (7 million), Makaybe Diva (14ish million)... Tap Dance City (8 plus million)... by the end of the day lava man should be over the 5 and a half million dollar mark. you are hard pressed to find a horse that has banked over 2 million let alone 20.


back to my point. You have to bred for soundness. The pleasant Tap/Pleasant colony line, the Seattle Slew line, the Hail to Reason/Buckpasser line, the Holy Bull/Great Above/Minnesota Mac line, the Northern Dancer, the Mr. Prospector line (for the most part, seeking the gold's dam made seeking the gold on eof the most unsound studs ever) are models of soundness. they throw sound race horses who are correct and can withstand training. Plesant Tap babies don't even hit stride fully until they are about 5 (See premium tap). I'm very interested to see what the new "sensation" of south american bloodlines will bring to the table in invsasor, leroidesanimaux and my fav, Candy Ride.

T' Breds run harder than harness races.. you are right.. I watch harness racing almost every night.. I've seen horses run 2 times a week.. some have like 150 plus starts.. that's unherd of in T'Bred races. But the purses are better as well in T'Breds. For a bottom level maiden claimer in CA, at least SoCal, the winner brings home almost 16k.

 

[backbreaker]

Drinks on me tonight

I just hit my biggest lick in probably 2 years in the Pacific Classic

 

[cordoncordon]

Yeah i hear ya and I'll write more about what you said a little later.

I'm Matt btw and it's nice to meet another horse lover. When you own or train them they almost become like your kids lol.

On another note. I live in Michigan and head out to Santa Monica few weeks to see my gf. (She used to live here with me but got a great job offer to work out there for a couple of years) Anyway, like I said she lives in Santa Monica right by the promenade. I have been itching to go to the Tbred tracks out there but my gf really isnt interested ( and I know there aren't many harness tracks), so next time I come out we should hang out and you can show me some of your Tbred handicapping skillzzz, (and woman skillzz lol)and maybe get a drink.

BTW how are things with your gf and the "problem" you were having?

Here's a couple pics of me and one of my gf.

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/9369/mattmy8.jpg

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6660/newfc7.jpg

Shes third from the right in the green dress.

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/8495/1005170sc1.jpg

 

[Suicide]

Ugh.

Dude, I lost a lot of money on the Classic. I can't believe that Student Council took it. If Migliore hadn't have given him such a fantastic trip and pulled wide on the stretch, it wouldn't have happened.

I think Lava Man is overrated, but would have liked to see a better performance from A.P. Xcellent; he just wasn't in a great post.

 

[cordoncordon]

Did you guys catch Lis Mara in the Canadian Pacing Derby? Now that's racing!

 

[backbreaker]

Yeah i hear ya and I'll write more about what you said a little later.

I'm Matt btw and it's nice to meet another horse lover. When you own or train them they almost become like your kids lol.

On another note. I live in Michigan and head out to Santa Monica few weeks to see my gf. (She used to live here with me but got a great job offer to work out there for a couple of years) Anyway, like I said she lives in Santa Monica right by the promenade. I have been itching to go to the Tbred tracks out there but my gf really isnt interested ( and I know there aren't many harness tracks), so next time I come out we should hang out and you can show me some of your Tbred handicapping skillzzz, (and woman skillzz lol)and maybe get a drink.

BTW how are things with your gf and the "problem" you were having?

Here's a couple pics of me and one of my gf.

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/9369/mattmy8.jpg

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6660/newfc7.jpg

Shes third from the right in the green dress.

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/8495/1005170sc1.jpg

can't complain on the woman front. I really think it was a fluke more than anything. Drugs run rampant in the back stretch as you know... jock's making weight, the hours they work. She puts a little SOMA in her diet coke every now and then but i"m not going to complain about that.

the one thing she lied to me about is how much money she makes... she doesn't do half bad. She gets a grand a week plus 1% of whatever the horse does being an assistant trainer (she lied to me about that... at first at least.. she told me she was an exercise rider.. turns out she's an assistant trainer for a nice sized stable... I wondered... couldn't put the way she dresses/etc together with how much she made)

I actually hit the harness tracks up from time to time.. Cal Expo is the best thing out here. If you want the real harness tracks, as you know, you gotta go to Meadlowands.. Yonkers has came along way.

Nice girl BTW

anohter funny story.. this one is actually pretty funny. She called about 5 hours ago... I asked her, because she has to stay at the track as long as they are running something or if they plan ot claim something. So I asked her where they running anything. She said not there, but they had a horse in the longacers mile up at Emerald downs and she wanted to stay to see the Pac Classic on hand before she came over.. so I ask her did the horse have a shot in the longacers.. that's a pretty big race on the west coast, the biggest outside of Cali.. she said "to win or break down?" I said nuff said..

one of her horses came in 3rd in a big undercard today so she got some extra spending money and is itching to take me out.. I can tell when her horses run home.. she comes here with in the money itis.

I can't believe that Student Council took it. If Migliore hadn't have given him such a fantastic trip and pulled wide on the stretch, it wouldn't have happened.

\
:woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo: :woo:


It seriously took me 10 mintues to handicap that race. My theory was based on this:

The horses in california suck.


that's pretty much it. no extra strategies... no pace talk.. no speeding handicapping.. no bad trips.. naw... just the horses, at least the males, are pathetic.

However, what struck me about Student Councill was the class he had been keeping that no one paid a damn attention to. He lost a half length in the razorback to Magna Graduate... who would demolish the field today.

He threw in a clunker at keeneland.. okay, so did Street Sense before rumping in the derby. still finished 4th

He lost 2 lenths in the muddiest track I have ever seen at churchill to Wonderin Boy and Magna Graduate... Wonderin Boy has won a Grade 1 already in NY, the toughest place in the country to win, and Magna Graduate again has not only a good horse.. he has finished 2nd by literarly a head to Flashy Bull in the Stephen Foster (grade1) and he was 3rd in the Dubai world cup last year, the biggest race in the WORLD.

all that was nice.. but the clincher for me was his last race. he lost by 1length...TO A HORSE THAT BORKE THE DAMN TRACK RECORD


See, the Cal horses have been beating up on each other. it's a reason why lava man goes out of the state, he gets his ass handed to him.. because he has to face real horses.

shoot by the time I got done, **** longhsot.. he's the best horse in the race.. and when Tiago scratched It was like moses parting the red sea for SC. and if THAT wasn't enough, he was privately bought, and scratched out of hte whitney jus FOR this race (per bloodhorse.com). and you mean you are going to give me 23 to 1? He has even won twice over poly!

I made my bet when I woke UP this morning.. thinking he would get bet down to 10 to 1... still a GREAT price. My sign for me that I know I made a good bet is when I feel like I'm stealing money before the race starts.. every tick of the tote my heart just went faster and faster... I knew the race was over when they hit the stretch.

let's just say I might end up buying that horse from earlier, and buying a car to put him in I'm done until pobably after the keeneland sale with that score. I'll take my babe out to eat later tonight.. as she had no idea how much I won (nor am I going to tell her)


Plus... another peice of inside info.. she has been telling me that lava man has looked like crap working out the last two weeks and if he can ever get beat, it's now. he has a hoof injury that isn't 100% heeled from last race.. he had no business running. however I kinda guessed that looking at his workouts.. nothign to gawk at.

but would have liked to see a better performance from A.P. Xcellent

1. all horses from cali suck


2. let's assume they don't. you have to learn to read between the lines. Sherriff's had 2 horses in the race. APE and Tiago. he scratches Tiago, because, his words "he doesn't want to harm the horse and mess up the rest of his 3YO year". Sherriffs' hates the poly track (As do i). He could have ran APE in the San Diego earlier this meet and choose tor un on the ghetto grass at Del mar instead. He has a GREAT 2YO named mr big that no one knows is great because he looked like a bobble head doll on the Del mar track.. you might see 4 or so more starters from him the rest of the meet. Baffert, Sherriff's, Lobo and Headley are all autotoss on this surface. Hell Headley has been autotoss since Santa Anita ended in april.

 

[backbreaker]

Did you guys catch Lis Mara in the Canadian Pacing Derby? Now that's racing!

actually I did. over the last year harness and Espically QH racing has grown on me.