Exclusive question is coming...

[PokerInTheRear]

I can just feel that the question is coming soon... She's already asked me if I'm seeing other people, etc. I'm not bringing up the matter of being exclusive with her, but I know she will be.

That said, I do like this girl, but not sure about how to handle this...

She has a lot of guy friends. She has told me about some of them. In fact she has brought up too many instances of hanging out with her guy friends... I'm not sure if she's trying to test me, make me jealous, or what - I have not in any way acted AFC when she discusses them. I act like it's none of my concern. BUT, it is a concern for me.

I sure as 5hit will not be exclusive with any woman who hangs out with another guy (friend or not) alone while she's with me. Call me insecure, I don't give a 5hit. I've seen it too many times and don't buy into it (unless it's a gay dude).

I've had girls that were just friends in my past, but I still would have had sex with most of them - if they'd let me

If the question comes up, I was planning on telling her that it wouldn't work because she wouldn't want to give up her guy friends and I don't go exclusive with girls who hang with other dudes...

My thought is that this throws it back on her and makes her own her decision (yeah right) and qualify herself to me... No?

How do I handle this?

 

[jophil28]

I sure as 5hit will not be exclusive with any woman who hangs out with another guy (friend or not) alone while she's with me. How do I handle this?

I have been in your situation and my "ignoring" the other guys merely encouraged her to see them alone because she felt no resistance or objection from me. .
My woman wanted to go out with her male "friends" whenever those guys invited her, BUT she was crazy jealous about me even dancing for five minutes with other women.

The issue of opposite sex "friends" is one glaring example of the blatant double standards that women try to apply because it suits them.
Men typically do not seek the company of women for pure "friendship" .
Any guy who hanging around your attractive g/f is waiting for his chance to F her, and is biding his time by camoflaging his true intentions.
We know that, and women also know that, BUT if it suits a woman to believe that some guy is her "friend" she will apply that label so that she can soak up all the ego bloating attention she can get from him.

What to do ? I do not have any pat answer- however, Guru 1000 once wrote a line here that impressed me.
HE suggested that you say something before she asks for exclusivity - take the initiative and say," IF you and I ever get to talking about exclusivity, then your male friends could be a problem."
Shut up and leave her with that thought.

Tricky situation.

 

[runner83]

Stick to your standards, otherwise it's a slippery slope.

If being exclusive and her hanging out alone with dudes is unacceptable to you (and more important than the possibility of losing her because of your insistence), then say that.

She will decide what is more important to her. Of course she will probably try to apply the amazing double standard that Jophil mentioned...

 

[Falcon25]

When a woman says "are we exclusive?" or anything else like it, you say the following (she has TO SAY THE EXCLUSIVE WORD FIRST THOUGH). "Listen, I'll make a deal with you. I'm fine with being exclusive, on one condition, and one condition only. If you want to be with me, you have to get rid of all the guys in your life that are not your family members. If you make me the only man in your life, I will make you my girlfriend." Then you shut the fuvk up and listen.

 

[Die Hard]

I can't say I have much experience in these matters but I think it probably won't matter what you say or how you say it. If she doesn't like and respect you enough to give up her male friends, she won't do it, no matter how you ask her to do it or what "games" you play before you ask it. And if she does like and respect you enough to do it, she will do it, no matter how you formulate the question or manipulate the way the matter is brought up.

You can't "force" her into giving up her male friends by saying that you won't be exclusive otherwise, nor can you "force" her into giving them up by "threatening" her that you will have female friends too, then. The will to give them up is gonna have to be genuine from her, it has to be a free choice, resulting from the fact that she likes/respects you so much that she's willing to give them up for you.

In other words, I guess you can't do anything to influence her decision. Just lay your wishes out there and tell her you can't be exclusive if she keeps seeing them. Then it's up to her, it's out of your hands.



The only thing you should do now, is make it very clear to YOURSELF that you can't compromise your principles for the desire to be exclusive with her. You need to mentally prepare yourself for the fact that you might HAVE TO walk away in the near future.

Stop overthinking and start focussing on other women, spin other plates. In the meantime, don't bring up the matter yourself, let her do it. If you would try to pre-emptively bring up the matter yourself and tell her a line like the one Jophil mentioned, I think it will only weaken your position. She will know that you are thinking about exclusivity yourself (why would you bring up the matter otherwise?) and that weakens your "bargaining position".

The frame should be yours, she should want something from you but you shouldn't want anything from her. If she wants exclusivity and you give her the idea that it doesn't mean much to you, you will control the frame. She wants something from you, not the other way around. You don't have to explicitly tell her you can get other girls and don't really need her, but you should indirectly make her think this, by acting independant, unemotional and confident. If she smells that you're emotionally involved in this situation and that you might not be willing to walk away, she won't like/respect you enough to give the male friends up.

So you have to really assume this position, and don't fake it coz that won't work. You either ARE confident and willing to walk away or you're NOT, and she'll sense if you're faking it.

So no "games" and premeditated "routines" to manipulate this situation. Just get yourself detached, spin other plates, stop CARING. You shouldn't even be into a girl too much if you know she has so many male friends! Girls like that should never be more than 'just a plate'. If they respect you enough, they might give the male friends up, and if they don't, you shift focuss to BETTER girls, which you DESERVE! But in any case, if you're not 100% willing to walk away and consider her 'just a plate', she's not gonna respect you enough to give the male friends up ANYWAY.

If you really are detached from her, you will say the right things automatically, not premeditated and with the goal to manipulate her. You might literally say "I don't care, go to your male friends, I'm done with you..." and you would say it BECAUSE YOU MEAN IT, because you really DON'T care. And perhaps that'll make her realize you're 'the prize' and actually make her give up on her male friends... But you don't care about the outcome, you'll just continue with her if she gives them up and you'll 'next' her if she doesn't, but either outcome is fine with you.


Being a DJ is all about your attitude, not about applying "tricks". A DJ doesn't premeditate on what he's going to say to a girl, he just says what comes up in his mind, and it will be the correct thing to say because his mind had the right attitude. So we shouldn't focuss on what to say to a girl, we should focuss on acquiring the right attitude, then the right words will follow automatically.

 

[zekko]

The only thing you should do now, is make it very clear to YOURSELF that you can't compromise your principles for the desire to be exclusive with her. You need to mentally prepare yourself for the fact that you might HAVE TO walk away in the near future.

I agree with this part.

When my LTR (of eight years now) was wanting to be exclusive with me, she had a few orbiters. I told her I had no interest in having a girlfriend who hung around with male friends. And I didn't. I would have walked. Her wanting to be with me was more important to her than keeping these hanger-ons around.

To me, and this is what I would make clear if it were me, is how to define "exclusive". If she is going out alone with other men, friends or not, that is not "exclusive", not by the way I define it. If she doesn't want you to be going out with other women, she shouldn't be going out with other guys.

Bottom line, if she doesn't live up to your standards, you should find someone else who does. If she won't drop her male friends, she gives you almost no choice but to start spinning plates, and hopefully eventually find someone suitable for you (if that's what you want).

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

She has a lot of guy friends. She has told me about some of them. In fact she has brought up too many instances of hanging out with her guy friends... I'm not sure if she's trying to test me, make me jealous, or what...

Beta bait, don't take it. If a woman is into another guy(s) to the point that she wants to pursue them romantically, the last thing she will do is overtly broadcast this to a guy she's currently with in order to maximize her options and maneuverability. She may do so covertly, but when she resorts to blatant, overt explanation as if it's some casual topic of conversation, there's an underlying agenda there.

Women's preferred method of communication is being covert, indirect, subtle and nuanced to varying degrees (body language, innuendo, gestures, etc.), in the hope that you're attentive enough to pick up on her obscured meanings - the context is more important than the content of what's being communicated. When they cross over into overt communication however, the content is too important for her to use any craft or subtlety. Basically the message is that what she's conveying is so important to her she'll cross over into Men's preferred communication - direct and overt. So when a woman, screams or cries, or says "get away from me you creep!", that's no nonsense overt communication, meaning she's so exasperated and exhausted her covert resources, she must resort to a language men will naturally understand.

Back to your situation; women don't pepper in talk of other guys into casual conversation without a cause. They know how it prompts intrigue, just like a woman offering hints about having a boyfriend into a conversation with another potentially interested guy. The medium IS the message, it's up to you to get that message. When she's telling you about other men in her life the message is this, "I'm a commodity. Lots of other guys think so. I want a commitment of exclusivity and if you wont do that, I have options who know a good deal when they see it."

Of course the double standard in all of this is that it's an entirely acceptable perception for a woman to overtly declare this in so many words, but a Man must ALWAYS establish competition anxiety as covertly as possible to avoid being seen as pretentious or conceited. What it comes down to is an attempt on her part to directly create social proof for herself in order for you to buy into her as a commodity.

You did well in avoiding this so far, but see it for what it is and understand what she's doing. On some level she also understands that she's got to temper her message of being a commodity to other guys with the perception of being at best an attention whøre and at worst a slut. She wants her value to you to be enough to lock down commitment, but not so much that you avoid it because she's all over the place with her attention needs and other guys. She knows she's taking a risk by doing this - it's her Achilles Heel, I say use it to your best advantage. Leverage that insecurity to keep her in limbo.

 

[PokerInTheRear]

I am blown away at the high-quality advice you all have offered up. Thanks for that!

I am conscious of what she's doing when she brings up the other dudes, but I won't take the bait.

I truly am willing and able to walk (and have two other plates in the mix). I feel in control of myself and it feels good. Things will go on my terms or not at all.

I have no energy or desire to try to change anyone. If knowing how I feel isn't enough for her to lose the orbiters, that's cool, her loss.

I know I'm the best damn thing for her whether she sees it or not. Today her love, tomorrow the world! Sorry, getting carried away. Thanks guys!

 

[Razor Sharp]

Rollo nailed the exact reason I no longer date sausage jugglers. I've dated 4 of them in my life, every single time it ended with her cheating. Anytime a girl has too many guy friends you should hear a defcon 3 alert in your head because the trouble ahead is inevitable.

My advice? Keep her on the team, but you are just setting yourself up for a fall if you wife this one up. Women like this tend to have SERIOUS validation issues and all the love in the world that you give them will never leave them satisfied for very long.

Deep self esteem problems + major disconnect with her own femininity = F*CK BUDDY.

If she prods as to why just let her know that she is not your type for a LTR, and she should probably move on if she expects anything more than what she's getting right now.

Dodge the bullet while you can bro

 

[zekko]

I have been in your situation and my "ignoring" the other guys merely encouraged her to see them alone because she felt no resistance or objection from me.

This matches my experience as well. Rollo seems to imply she is using these guys to make Poker jealous or as social proof. That may be so, too.

But from what I've seen, women will usually want to hang on to their orbiters if they're not called on it. Hey, why not? It's like a guy being given a free pass to cheat. Because to some extent I think the drug of male attention is the equivalent of sex to a guy.

If knowing how I feel isn't enough for her to lose the orbiters, that's cool, her loss.

Wait, so you've told her how you feel about it? This is new information.
How did she react to it?

 

[Twitch]

Rollo, what would one have to do and say to keep a woman in limbo in this situation? Anyone else is welcome to give their input.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

POKER, out of morbid curiosity is this the same woman who's asking you how many girls you've slept with?

But from what I've seen, women will usually want to hang on to their orbiters if they're not called on it.

Valid point, but this is precisely the Beta bait I'm describing above. What this woman wants is to gauge POKER's confidence and Alpha cred. As I've stated in many a thread, a woman with a high IL in a guy wont confuse him. A woman that has a high IL in a guy has no need (and less motivation) to engage in behaviors that would compromise her status with him.

Although attention is the coin of the realm in girl-world, that attention is valued in different denominations depending on the guy it comes from. In other words, the attention of a high value Alpha Man will outweigh that of multiple lower value betas. When presented as such, no woman will voluntarily risk maintaining the attention of lower value betas at the cost of such an exceptionally high value Alpha. This of course is an easy assessment when values are at the extreme, but more commonly this isn't the case.

What I'm saying is that POKER shouldn't need to qualify himself amongst all her orbiters. If her interest in him were higher, she wouldn't risk losing his attention by explaining how popular she is; she would voluntarily occupy herself with him and disengage with the orbiters. It's when POKER gives direct ultimatums, or calls her on it that he fails the sh!t test. He enters her world, instead of the other way around and she controls the frame. Genuine desire cannot be negotiated; if her desire for the attentions of multiple orbiters is more rewarding than his own, no amount pleading his case will prompt real desire for him.

Rollo, what would one have to do and say to keep a woman in limbo in this situation?

Exactly what he's been doing - stimulating her imagination by remaining deliberately ambiguous. I think a lot of guys take "being aloof" as being priggish or conceited. A better term would be "amused mastery"- conveying that you're so self-confident in knowing what she's covertly attempting that it's amusing to you, and then manifesting that in your attitude. If she were to press POKER for exclusivity his reply should be, "why on earth would you want that, wouldn't all your male friends be put off by you then?" in as matter-of-fact a manner as he can muster. Ideally POKER would be flipping the script on her, maintaining frame and covertly letting her know what he thinks of her without resorting to an overt ultimatum.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Granted, there's a required degree of expected maturity for a woman to be conscious of this. Obviously an immature 19 y.o. fresh out of high school and still accustomed to an adolescent social skill set will be less aware of orbiters as a liability - or she could be a simple attention whøre. However, the point is that when presented with the proper motivation (in this case an exceptionally high value male) a woman's propensity is to become preoccupied with the high value male. This is irrespective of whether she's conscious of her orbiters as a liability; her focus is on him and the orbiter's attention falls to the wayside.

Bear in mind this is proportional to difference in the sexual market value of each partner involved. An above average HB 9.5 is going to feel entitled to a lot of attention and therefore may still accept orbiter adoration since her equal in sexual market value is going to be a guy around the 9 to 9.5 level. Pair up an HB 7.5 with a guy who's about a 9 and that disparity means there's no way she'd risk entertaining orbiters, assuming she's even aware of them while she's enthralled with her 9 level Alpha male.

 

[jophil28]

If she were to press POKER for exclusivity his reply should be, "why on earth would you want that, wouldn't all your male friends be put off by you then?" in as matter-of-fact a manner as he can muster. Ideally POKER would be flipping the script on her, maintaining frame and covertly letting her know what he thinks of her without resorting to an overt ultimatum.

I just stole that ordinance and added it to my armory. Can't wait to deploy .

 

[jophil28]

She has a lot of guy friends. She has told me about some of them. In fact she has brought up too many instances of hanging out with her guy friends... I'm not sure if she's trying to test me, make me jealous, or what - I have not in any way acted AFC when she discusses them. I act like it's none of my concern. BUT, it is a concern for me.

YOu know something and I speak from a personal experience.
Women who flaunt their "friendships" with orbiters in your face will practise a curious inconsistency.
IF you are her A guy ( or at the least the guy she is sleeping with) she will reveal her connections with those other guys when she feels that she wants a deeper commitment for you ON HER TERMS .
She will feed you snippets of information about them and their pursuit of her, BUT she will keep the essence of your relationship with her a secret from them, if she tells them at all.
Those chumps do NOT know that you are fukking her senseless.

 

[backbreaker]

YOu know something and I speak from a personal experience.
Women who flaunt their "friendships" with orbiters in your face will practise a curious inconsistency.
IF you are her A guy ( or at the least the guy she is sleeping with) she will reveal her connections with those other guys when she feels that she wants a deeper commitment for you ON HER TERMS .
She will feed you snippets of information about them and their pursuit of her, BUT she will keep the essence of your relationship with her a secret from them, if she tells them at all.
Those chumps do NOT know that you are fukking her senseless.

if this were a church i would get up and walk down the isle and give you a hi five

dude,his is how my oneitis strung my ass along for 6 years lol.

the first guy was "some creep that keeps bothering me, blah blha i can't stand him" yeah 3 years.

the next guy " i think he's gay, i odn't know why i put up with him, i wish her were more like you, we aren't dating.. (6 months later) okay i decided to date him bedaucse there is nothing better to do, i might as well and his family does have money blah blah


actions not words. a woman will tell you whatever you want to hear to keep you in the picture.
[

before i came to this site, i used to look at guys who would oribit around girls with BF's

now, i look at the girl, because 10 out of 10 times, she is telling a guy some cooked up BS story.

 

[jophil28]

before i came to this site, i used to look at guys who would oribit around girls with BF's

now, i look at the girl, because 10 out of 10 times, she is telling a guy some cooked up BS story.

These women lie to the guys on both sides .

Their standard lie to their A guy (you) is that the orbiters are somewhat like dysfunctional annoying pests . The orbiters are portrayed is lovelorn , lost souls with no game and no options. The woman subtly lets you know and believe that there is NO romantic attachment in her relationship with them even though she KNOWS that her orbiters are gaga for her. She also knows that she needs to feed them some crumbs of hope to hold them in orbit. That is why she dates them occasionally - to keep their deal stable .

The standard lie to the orbiters is that you, (if indeed they know about you) are merely a new guy that she dates occasionally. She never reveals the intensity, much less the lust, in her relationship with you. To them you are just another contender.

These lies are her ways of maintaining the whole arrangement in a kind of a shaky equilibrium.
Make no mistake men, these women are very good at pulling this off.


I had the good luck in meeting and talking with one of my woman's orbiters after she and I broke up. Mindboggling stories emerged of her duplicity and her absence of any moral considerations.

Four years later and I still have great diffficulty believing that some women are capable of such a degree of calculated dishonesty to get what they want.

 

[PokerInTheRear]

YOu know something and I speak from a personal experience.
Women who flaunt their "friendships" with orbiters in your face will practise a curious inconsistency.
IF you are her A guy ( or at the least the guy she is sleeping with) she will reveal her connections with those other guys when she feels that she wants a deeper commitment for you ON HER TERMS .
She will feed you snippets of information about them and their pursuit of her, BUT she will keep the essence of your relationship with her a secret from them, if she tells them at all.
Those chumps do NOT know that you are fukking her senseless.

Wow - You guys have made this a golden thread of advice! Jophil: She drops me these little nuggets about how 2 of the dudes have asked her outright to be a FB - which she says she's outright denied. I have no doubt they know nothing of me.

ROLLO: Yes, same girl discussed in my how many girls thread... I too have kept the line that Jophil quoted from you - perfect!

ZEKKO: No, we have not had the convo - I was speaking of how I felt about it.

RAZOR: You are right sir... She does have some confidence issues without a doubt. She also is not the overly girly-girly type and has said that she has more male friends than female... hmmm...

It's weird guys, I'm feeling a real push/pull thing going on with this one. She drops me indications of very high IL - wants me to meet her family, wants to get with me and do things, etc... but then she kinda fades into the woodwork and I hear very little from her except a random text her and there.

My gut is not sitting right with this one. I promised myself that I would never ignore my gut again (long BPD story).

I'm heading out with another plate tomorrow night who clearly has her life more in order than this one. I should probably cut this one loose - she's not giving me a warm feeling in my tummy.

 

[jophil28]

...she KNOWS that her orbiters are gaga for her. She also knows that she needs to feed them some crumbs of hope to hold them in orbit.

Your girl has done exactly what I wrote above. She has enticed and lured them into the inner orbit by giving them just enough of her time and flirty promises (covertly of course) to encourage them to suggest FB arrangements with her.
Women like this thrive on setting up men in a squabble of rivalry.

Notice how she disowned any possibility of becoming involved in the FB deals? However, as I discovered, lies and constant lying is absolutely necessary for women like this to keep the game in progress.
However, she will continue her 'meetings ' with them behind your back ( she may tell you about a few) and will continue to entice the other guys and keep them dangling .
I bet that she is now also hoping that you will react to the FB suggestions in a jealous rage.

Typical HPD/BPD traits.

 

[jophil28]

...she KNOWS that her orbiters are gaga for her. She also knows that she needs to feed them some crumbs of hope to hold them in orbit.

Ultimately it comes down to whether you are willing to spend your time and energy on a woman who behaves as if your relationship is some kind of board game.