PUA in Training
Don Juan
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- Jul 20, 2006
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This is from a website called heartlessb!tches.com (there's no ! in the actual web address, of course lol). There's a part of the website that is devoted to the Nice Guys vs Jerks debate. I know, don't take dating advice from women, but basically they give the same advice as sosuave, as far as where "nice guys" (AFC's) go wrong, and what to do about it: be the best you you can be, and your love life will take care of itself.
They sometimes get email from guys who just don't get it. Either guys who still insist that women go for jerks because they like being treated bad, or this guy. Then they basically verbally b!tchslap the guy for the world to see. I posted the whole thing, but the part that especially got my attention was the part about hitting on total strangers, so I put it in italics. There's funny stuff on this site making fun of AFC's (they call them "nice guys"). The "heartless b!tch's" responses are in brackets. I'd be interested to hear what you guys think.
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006
From: Nathan Kendrick
Subject: Some nice guy questions
Just stumbled onto your sight today...
good stuff. As a reforming "nice guy," I'm doing my best to learn all those things I should have during the years wasted in self-pity. Perhaps you'll have a take on these comments:
By way of contrast with another guy at work, it occured to me: you know how some guys don't know how to treat women as anything but sex objects? Well, I don't know how to treat them as sex objects.
[Somehow I seriously doubt that.]
Not to mean of course, that I don't lust after a lovely young lady as much as the next guy... but I'm a little befuddled how to make that interest known.
[Ok, so you SEE them as sex objects, you just don't know how to make that objectification *known*... Wow. Charming.]
The art of flirting, if you will.
Namely, in my goal of getting out and making an effort, it occurs to me that I have scant idea what to say. Yeah, I know, just introduce yourself. Listen, I can go up to anyone and say, "Hi, I'm Nate, and you are?" It's the inane conversation that follows that puzzles me. So I usually fall back on the same BS I'd use in a non-meat-market gathering.
I hate asking, "what do you do," as if that should define a person, or the worst, "so, having a good time tonight?" I've played with the idea of being completely direct: "You look really good and so I came up to make inane banter in hopes of getting your number and maybe a date." Might be a fun approach... I'll have to try that.
[What about having something INTERESTING to talk about? Here's a novel concept: What about NOT seeing women as sex objects or potential dates? What about striking up a conversation with a woman with NO agenda?]
It would be nice to have a genuine compliment for a young woman that didn't involve her face, chest, or butt. Like if she's wearing some cool earrings or a pretty shirt. But lets face it, at least half the time she's wearing something pretty generic, and it was only what was underneath that attracted my attention.
[Like her but or chest? Because, let's face it, if you haven't even had a conversation with her, there can't be much else to "attract" you.]
And sure, it'd be nice to be interested in what was underneath that (as in, her personality) but you don't introduce yourself to someone because of their personality--you don't know it.
[Unless you meet people through activities that are of mutual interest - like outdoors clubs, photography courses, etc...? In other words, places where you might actually get to know someone as a PERSON.]
And then there's the question of venue. For example, there are a few attractive young ladies who can be found periodically increasing their chance of skin cancer out by the pool, but I presume they don't really want to be bothered.
[Here's an even MORE novel concept. Why not try to meet people who are interesting rather than looking for "attractive young ladies"? Why is it these "nice guys" are always looking for the hot chicks and yet lamenting that none are interested in THEM?]
(Incorrect?) Or at the gym, I think I correctly assume that they are not there to be picked up.
[The kind of women who would go to a gym to be "picked up" probably aren't the type who would be interested in YOU, and for that, you should be grateful.]
Bars are such terrible places to meet people. It would be easier if my hobbies weren't so male-dominated.
[So expand your horizons. Not to "meet women" but to be a more well-rounded person. To be more INTERESTING.]
Not to mention, outside of a bar, it's impossible to tell if a woman is old enough... you're never sure if it's safe to hit on the girl behind the counter because she just might be a girl.
[Why not stop trying to see every woman as a potential date? You sound creepy. Why not spend a few months just getting to know women as FRIENDS without having any AGENDA at all?]
With young girls trying to look older and women trying to look younger, it gets confusing. I would have picked one young lady at the gym for high-school, until I saw the Univ of GA sticker on her car on the way out.
[She could have been driving her older sibling's car. Her MOTHER might be going to the university. You just don't know.]
But mostly, my confusion comes back to what I asked in the beginning. What do you say to a young lady?
[Ick. I can't begin to tell you why this question is so wrong in so many ways. You just don't get it. Don't HIT on total strangers. It's creepy. If you have nothing to say, then get out and learn to be a more-well rounded person. Do some PERSONAL growth instead of obsessing on how to approach women.]
I think my tendency, to get into an intellectual or getting-to-know-you conversation, no matter how interesting, does not convey the necessary meaning, or suggest in her mind the romantic interest that is my ultimate motivation.
["Romantic"? As in you want to get into her pants? Because, let's face it, you can't have much more motivation than that if you don't even know the person and you are hitting on them. In case you didn't get it the first time: This is not a site to give you advice on how to get women to date you.]
Too nice, no spark.
[It has nothing to do with you being "Nice". You are being CREEPY. Don't you get it?]
Yeah, so it's still neurotic navel-gazing, a typical nice-guy habit. But just because I don't know what to say, doesn't mean I don't try anyway.
Chew it up and spit it out, or ignore it. I was hoping you might have some fun with it.
Nate
They sometimes get email from guys who just don't get it. Either guys who still insist that women go for jerks because they like being treated bad, or this guy. Then they basically verbally b!tchslap the guy for the world to see. I posted the whole thing, but the part that especially got my attention was the part about hitting on total strangers, so I put it in italics. There's funny stuff on this site making fun of AFC's (they call them "nice guys"). The "heartless b!tch's" responses are in brackets. I'd be interested to hear what you guys think.
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006
From: Nathan Kendrick
Subject: Some nice guy questions
Just stumbled onto your sight today...
good stuff. As a reforming "nice guy," I'm doing my best to learn all those things I should have during the years wasted in self-pity. Perhaps you'll have a take on these comments:
By way of contrast with another guy at work, it occured to me: you know how some guys don't know how to treat women as anything but sex objects? Well, I don't know how to treat them as sex objects.
[Somehow I seriously doubt that.]
Not to mean of course, that I don't lust after a lovely young lady as much as the next guy... but I'm a little befuddled how to make that interest known.
[Ok, so you SEE them as sex objects, you just don't know how to make that objectification *known*... Wow. Charming.]
The art of flirting, if you will.
Namely, in my goal of getting out and making an effort, it occurs to me that I have scant idea what to say. Yeah, I know, just introduce yourself. Listen, I can go up to anyone and say, "Hi, I'm Nate, and you are?" It's the inane conversation that follows that puzzles me. So I usually fall back on the same BS I'd use in a non-meat-market gathering.
I hate asking, "what do you do," as if that should define a person, or the worst, "so, having a good time tonight?" I've played with the idea of being completely direct: "You look really good and so I came up to make inane banter in hopes of getting your number and maybe a date." Might be a fun approach... I'll have to try that.
[What about having something INTERESTING to talk about? Here's a novel concept: What about NOT seeing women as sex objects or potential dates? What about striking up a conversation with a woman with NO agenda?]
It would be nice to have a genuine compliment for a young woman that didn't involve her face, chest, or butt. Like if she's wearing some cool earrings or a pretty shirt. But lets face it, at least half the time she's wearing something pretty generic, and it was only what was underneath that attracted my attention.
[Like her but or chest? Because, let's face it, if you haven't even had a conversation with her, there can't be much else to "attract" you.]
And sure, it'd be nice to be interested in what was underneath that (as in, her personality) but you don't introduce yourself to someone because of their personality--you don't know it.
[Unless you meet people through activities that are of mutual interest - like outdoors clubs, photography courses, etc...? In other words, places where you might actually get to know someone as a PERSON.]
And then there's the question of venue. For example, there are a few attractive young ladies who can be found periodically increasing their chance of skin cancer out by the pool, but I presume they don't really want to be bothered.
[Here's an even MORE novel concept. Why not try to meet people who are interesting rather than looking for "attractive young ladies"? Why is it these "nice guys" are always looking for the hot chicks and yet lamenting that none are interested in THEM?]
(Incorrect?) Or at the gym, I think I correctly assume that they are not there to be picked up.
[The kind of women who would go to a gym to be "picked up" probably aren't the type who would be interested in YOU, and for that, you should be grateful.]
Bars are such terrible places to meet people. It would be easier if my hobbies weren't so male-dominated.
[So expand your horizons. Not to "meet women" but to be a more well-rounded person. To be more INTERESTING.]
Not to mention, outside of a bar, it's impossible to tell if a woman is old enough... you're never sure if it's safe to hit on the girl behind the counter because she just might be a girl.
[Why not stop trying to see every woman as a potential date? You sound creepy. Why not spend a few months just getting to know women as FRIENDS without having any AGENDA at all?]
With young girls trying to look older and women trying to look younger, it gets confusing. I would have picked one young lady at the gym for high-school, until I saw the Univ of GA sticker on her car on the way out.
[She could have been driving her older sibling's car. Her MOTHER might be going to the university. You just don't know.]
But mostly, my confusion comes back to what I asked in the beginning. What do you say to a young lady?
[Ick. I can't begin to tell you why this question is so wrong in so many ways. You just don't get it. Don't HIT on total strangers. It's creepy. If you have nothing to say, then get out and learn to be a more-well rounded person. Do some PERSONAL growth instead of obsessing on how to approach women.]
I think my tendency, to get into an intellectual or getting-to-know-you conversation, no matter how interesting, does not convey the necessary meaning, or suggest in her mind the romantic interest that is my ultimate motivation.
["Romantic"? As in you want to get into her pants? Because, let's face it, you can't have much more motivation than that if you don't even know the person and you are hitting on them. In case you didn't get it the first time: This is not a site to give you advice on how to get women to date you.]
Too nice, no spark.
[It has nothing to do with you being "Nice". You are being CREEPY. Don't you get it?]
Yeah, so it's still neurotic navel-gazing, a typical nice-guy habit. But just because I don't know what to say, doesn't mean I don't try anyway.
Chew it up and spit it out, or ignore it. I was hoping you might have some fun with it.
Nate
