Dealing with AFC friends

[redline]

I have some friends who are in pretty sh1t relationships. I get to hear all the bullsh1t over beers that they put up with as they struggle to deal with their moody, stroppy girlfriends or wives. I swear, at times I cant believe the crap these guys take, and the strategies they use to try and make things right, and the horrible responses they get.

now, im still a newbie with this stuff, but im learning fast (im doing the bootcamp now, into week 2), and yeh, I read the bible, but im stumped at what to say when im talking to these guys. I'd like them to see that they are selling themselves short, but im concerned that some of the ideas here are too radical for someone so immersed in a rubbish relationship, not to mention the fact I also socialise with their GF's (within the context of a large circle of friends). and of course, they would probably choke on their coffee if i emailed them the url of this site :crackup:

has anyone else dealt with this? whats the go here?

 

[WestCoaster]

Show them the site

The majority of males are AFC and the majority of my friends are. Worse yet, most of my friends are married AFCS -- ugh!

That said, this thinking is so radical that one either embraces it or flat out rejects it.

I suggest giving them the website address and steer them to the articles, Hall of Fame articles, and DJ Bible --- keep them off the message boards for the moment.

If they reject this site, too bad for them; if they accept it, you have a boot camp partner.

 

[JackPrescott]

Originally posted by redline
I have some friends who are in pretty sh1t relationships. I get to hear all the bullsh1t over beers that they put up with as they struggle to deal with their moody, stroppy girlfriends or wives. I swear, at times I cant believe the crap these guys take, and the strategies they use to try and make things right, and the horrible responses they get.

now, im still a newbie with this stuff, but im learning fast (im doing the bootcamp now, into week 2), and yeh, I read the bible, but im stumped at what to say when im talking to these guys. I'd like them to see that they are selling themselves short, but im concerned that some of the ideas here are too radical for someone so immersed in a rubbish relationship, not to mention the fact I also socialise with their GF's (within the context of a large circle of friends). and of course, they would probably choke on their coffee if i emailed them the url of this site :crackup:

has anyone else dealt with this? whats the go here?

In this life we have two choices. We can be in a relationship, or we can be single. Those of us who choose to be single are in the rat race/dating scene. There is good and bad to this. Yes, theoretically, it is nice to be "Don Juans" and date and f*ck many, many different women, and have them on the side, ect. But all is not life like Hugh Hefner has at the mansion. Life is not exactly having 5 different Playmates at your beck and call, and sleeping naked with different combinations of them every night. There are those nights slept alone, there is mastrubation, and there are the horrid "Boys nights out" when one goes to a bar, and watches the NFL with a group of men, and drinks beer, and belches, and makes jokes, and goes home alone.

Or we can be in a one on one exclusive relationship. After the "honeymoon" period is over, and the couple tires of sex four times a night in multiple positions, they shack up, and then real life catches up. Bills, rent, car payments, jobs, and children all hit the picture, as does monoghamy. We have to sleep with the same person, all night, every night, and yes, you can get on each others nerves. Even perfect, beautiful filthy rich people like Brad and Jen are not above this. Or Renee Zegweller and Tracy Chesny. I knew that wouldnt last, as they married during the "honeymoon phase" of their relationship. Then, as the hot, torrid sex phased out, they found that their relationship had no legs to stand on.

The answer is balance. If you want to be single, have balance, if you want to be in a relationship, have balance, you need a compatible partner, who loves to be with you and is just as happy watching television as she is at the hottest clubs in Vegas, as long as she is WITH YOU.

 

[WestCoaster]

Good post Jack

The key to the long-term relationship or marriage is finding a low maintenance woman ... in the U.S., good freaking luck!

Finding a relaxed woman, who doesn't let a broken nail freak her out; who understands that ups and downs are going to happen; that a marriage is more important than a wedding, that life has many ups and downs and we're going to go on this rollercoaster ride TOGETHER ... is near impossible.

It's tough to find a relaxed, yet resilient woman out there.

The typical American woman will freak out at the drop of a hat, get divorced for no good reason, and look for a thrill-a-minute and expect the thrills to keep coming 24/7/365, and if they don't, they're on to hunting for another man who can thrill them.

Honestly? I should've grown up in the 40's when women had class, style, and weren't polluted by TV/American society.

Finding a quality mate is very tough in today's American society. Outside of America? I'm not sure, but it's got to be easier than this. This site exists because of the odd psyche of American women.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Ego Investment

What you both are banging your heads up against is called Ego Investment. This is a psychological condition that is the result of a so strongly internalized belief that becomes so ingrained in a person it literally becomes part of that person's personality. Religion and political affiliation are the easiest illustrations of this, but it goes much deeper and it's my belief (pun intended) that the characteristics of an AFC and/or Nice Guy are definiite forms of ego investment.

How often do you hear Nice Guys tell you that they can't help it and it's "just how they are?" This is in fact true, they can't help it because they have operated under what they have been taught through experience for so long and to such a degree that they literally can't alter their own behavior. And while the very thought of changing themselves to better accomodate success with women (or life in general) is a fearful prospect, they will vehemently and violently oppose any ideas to the contrary or any doctrine that challenges their belief no matter what blatant evidence someone else proves to them. Their AFC beliefs are so ego invested that a challenge to these beliefs are percieved as an attack on them personally. It's akin to telling someone they aren't raising their child right or aren't living their lives correctly - it literally becomes a challenge to their upbrining. It's like converting a lifelong Jew to Hinduism.

No one likes to have their Achilles Heel pointed out to them, we're already intimately aware of our own weaknesses. It when we have our moments of clarity that we need to act. Understand that there are hopeless cases, but look for instances where an AFC may be more receptive to listening to another perspective.

One of the most frustrating experiences I've had was with a friend, Shawn, who was in a 3.5 year damaging, and retarding relationship with a woman who initially was lively and hot devolve into a living hell of manipulation and control. Once myself and another buddy of ours had an intervention with him after a particularly brutal, emotionally damaging fight (not physical) he manned up enough to walk away from her permanently. For the next 3 months he actually listened to what we were teaching and was more successful with women than he'd ever been in his life. This was made all the sweeter for him when his manipulative Ex did a 180 in her personality and basically stalked him for a month or so. This was a great time for him until he met his most recent LTR. Although Shawn was successfully meeting and hooking up with women now, he was what I call a Serial Monogamist. He'd never lived truly independently without a woman in his life or even considered dating multiple women (above board of course). Shaw had learned some valuable lessons from his prior relationship and what we had taught him, but he was never able to unlearn his AFC ego investment. He never made the connection that his attitude and understanding was what held him back from success and when he was given the keys to a new car in the form of skills, he still drove back to the same place he'd been in his first LTR.

Now he is controlled by another girl, but she isn't the one manipulating him, he does so himself. He personally limits himself and his interaction with us and other friends in favor of doing what he thinks is necessary to maintain an LTR - constant, consistent, attention to the point of being attached at the hip to his new GF. Shawn is also what I call Pre-Whipped. His ego investment is such that even under the best of circumstances he will default to AFC mentality behavior as a response to his own insecurities which in turn sabotage exactly what he's trying to achieve.

There are a LOT of Shawns in this world, I know, I was one of them for a long time. I had a less-than-masculine, do-anything-for-the-vagina father and I was never really aware of how this uncosciously affected me in my teens and 20s. I may seem wise to a few people on this forum, but it certainly isn't because I did everything right, it's becasue I got it wrong all the time. I subscribed to everything any AFC ever posted here about the path to women's intimacy, satisfaction and happiness. It took me a long time and more than a few very traumatic, damaging relationships to turn a corner in my head and wake up to what was really at play. Unfortunately I also know 65 y.o. married AFCs who never will and would only attempt to patronize me as some younger foolish guy if I pointed out what's really been undermining them for decades. There's no point in trying in some instances.

You cannot teach those unwilling to learn.

The hardest thing for the majority of people in this world to accept is the oldest dictom of philosophy and this is that, the only thing I truly know is that I know nothing. We have to be the eternal student, always inquisitive and particularly about the things we think we know the best.

 

[flexion_]

"You cannot teach those unwilling to learn."

Until your buddies are serious about making a change do nothing - just listen. Otherwise you are just wasting your time.

 

[WestCoaster]

More married AFC stories

Thanks Rollo ... good to hear this stuff, makes me not so bummed about not being married at my age.

More married AFC stories:

* Good friend moved in with a gal he met in college. Moved in at about age 22 ... I'm thinking, why?! The guy has GQ looks and every time we go out to a pub, he has to practically fight off the women. Great guy, smart, professional, athletic, great personality ... if single, he could have any woman he met. He married an angry feminist who frankly if she was single, could not get a date. She is NOT hot at all. Still together after nearly 20 years and he is miserable when he's around her. I've been in the house when she's landed on him, he just takes it. He thought about divorcing her but didn't have the nads, last year they had a kid (first one) and now he's locked in. Very painful, but he's a making of his own AFCness. (He was supposed to come down for the annual college football game/weekend this year, but wifey said "NO WAY!" Beyotch.

* Another friend married a gal who is very controlling. He can't sneeze without her permission. Moved from Oregon to Montana. Ran into his parents at a high school football game a few years ago, nice folks, getting old. His mom told me that her son (my friend) hadn't been to visit in SIX years. Holy crap! I'm not a momma's boy, but I visit my folks once every few months. We were also planning a college football weekend, but up at his place. Wifey shot it down. I'm pretty tame on these weekends, I don't over-drink or encourage my married friends to hit on ladies, but the beyotches shut these outings down.

... And I could go on and on. Look before you leap!

 

[JackPrescott]

Re: Ego Investment

Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
What you both are banging your heads up against is called Ego Investment. This is a psychological condition that is the result of a so strongly internalized belief that becomes so ingrained in a person it literally becomes part of that person's personality. Religion and political affiliation are the easiest illustrations of this, but it goes much deeper and it's my belief (pun intended) that the characteristics of an AFC and/or Nice Guy are definiite forms of ego investment.

How often do you hear Nice Guys tell you that they can't help it and it's "just how they are?" This is in fact true, they can't help it because they have operated under what they have been taught through experience for so long and to such a degree that they literally can't alter their own behavior. And while the very thought of changing themselves to better accomodate success with women (or life in general) is a fearful prospect, they will vehemently and violently oppose any ideas to the contrary or any doctrine that challenges their belief no matter what blatant evidence someone else proves to them. Their AFC beliefs are so ego invested that a challenge to these beliefs are percieved as an attack on them personally. It's akin to telling someone they aren't raising their child right or aren't living their lives correctly - it literally becomes a challenge to their upbrining. It's like converting a lifelong Jew to Hinduism.

No one likes to have their Achilles Heel pointed out to them, we're already intimately aware of our own weaknesses. It when we have our moments of clarity that we need to act. Understand that there are hopeless cases, but look for instances where an AFC may be more receptive to listening to another perspective.

One of the most frustrating experiences I've had was with a friend, Shawn, who was in a 3.5 year damaging, and retarding relationship with a woman who initially was lively and hot devolve into a living hell of manipulation and control. Once myself and another buddy of ours had an intervention with him after a particularly brutal, emotionally damaging fight (not physical) he manned up enough to walk away from her permanently. For the next 3 months he actually listened to what we were teaching and was more successful with women than he'd ever been in his life. This was made all the sweeter for him when his manipulative Ex did a 180 in her personality and basically stalked him for a month or so. This was a great time for him until he met his most recent LTR. Although Shawn was successfully meeting and hooking up with women now, he was what I call a Serial Monogamist. He'd never lived truly independently without a woman in his life or even considered dating multiple women (above board of course). Shaw had learned some valuable lessons from his prior relationship and what we had taught him, but he was never able to unlearn his AFC ego investment. He never made the connection that his attitude and understanding was what held him back from success and when he was given the keys to a new car in the form of skills, he still drove back to the same place he'd been in his first LTR.

Now he is controlled by another girl, but she isn't the one manipulating him, he does so himself. He personally limits himself and his interaction with us and other friends in favor of doing what he thinks is necessary to maintain an LTR - constant, consistent, attention to the point of being attached at the hip to his new GF. Shawn is also what I call Pre-Whipped. His ego investment is such that even under the best of circumstances he will default to AFC mentality behavior as a response to his own insecurities which in turn sabotage exactly what he's trying to achieve.

There are a LOT of Shawns in this world, I know, I was one of them for a long time. I had a less-than-masculine, do-anything-for-the-vagina father and I was never really aware of how this uncosciously affected me in my teens and 20s. I may seem wise to a few people on this forum, but it certainly isn't because I did everything right, it's becasue I got it wrong all the time. I subscribed to everything any AFC ever posted here about the path to women's intimacy, satisfaction and happiness. It took me a long time and more than a few very traumatic, damaging relationships to turn a corner in my head and wake up to what was really at play. Unfortunately I also know 65 y.o. married AFCs who never will and would only attempt to patronize me as some younger foolish guy if I pointed out what's really been undermining them for decades. There's no point in trying in some instances.

You cannot teach those unwilling to learn.

The hardest thing for the majority of people in this world to accept is the oldest dictom of philosophy and this is that, the only thing I truly know is that I know nothing. We have to be the eternal student, always inquisitive and particularly about the things we think we know the best.

Shawn sounds like he's doing all right to me. I think that part of what is wrong with your way of thinking, is that you fail to realize/acknowledge that some men actually enjoy pussay more than the little Monday Night Football nights out with the guys. Shawn sounds like he enjoys the company of this woman, and Shawn sounds as if he enjoys sleeping naked with this woman. Basically, what you are saying, is that he no longer wants to go "club crawling" with you or "the fellas" and try and hook up with different women, all weekend long, or maybe do the bowling nights, or the Monday Night football parties, or the weekend getaways "All Male" ect.

I once was in love with a woman who didnt want me to go to an out of state U2 concert "with the boys"...I did anyway, and was bored and miserable the whole time, and rushed back to her after an incredibly boring weekend. All weekend I wanted to be with her, and had absolute ZERO interest in hangin' with the fellas, club hopping after the show, ect. I wanted to be with my lady. That was years and years ago, and she and I broke up for different reasons, but I still regret that weekend, I actually wish I had spent it with her, although now, I cannot stomach the sight of her, and would never take her back.

There is nothing wrong with "whipped" or "pre whipped"...it is part of the human experience to be in love, or in the state of falling in love, it is a wonderful, perfect existence, it is dopeamine surging through the brain, it is a man, wanting nothing more than to be (sexually) with that certain woman, and it is that certain woman wanting nothing more than penetration from that certain man. The fact that they are also great friends/companions outside the bedroom is icing on the cake.

 

[IronFar]

Re: Re: Ego Investment

Originally posted by JackPrescott
Shawn sounds like he's doing all right to me. I think that part of what is wrong with your way of thinking, is that you fail to realize/acknowledge that some men actually enjoy pussay more than the little Monday Night Football nights out with the guys. Shawn sounds like he enjoys the company of this woman, and Shawn sounds as if he enjoys sleeping naked with this woman. Basically, what you are saying, is that he no longer wants to go "club crawling" with you or "the fellas" and try and hook up with different women, all weekend long, or maybe do the bowling nights, or the Monday Night football parties, or the weekend getaways "All Male" ect.

I once was in love with a woman who didnt want me to go to an out of state U2 concert "with the boys"...I did anyway, and was bored and miserable the whole time, and rushed back to her after an incredibly boring weekend. All weekend I wanted to be with her, and had absolute ZERO interest in hangin' with the fellas, club hopping after the show, ect. I wanted to be with my lady. That was years and years ago, and she and I broke up for different reasons, but I still regret that weekend, I actually wish I had spent it with her, although now, I cannot stomach the sight of her, and would never take her back.

There is nothing wrong with "whipped" or "pre whipped"...it is part of the human experience to be in love, or in the state of falling in love, it is a wonderful, perfect existence, it is dopeamine surging through the brain, it is a man, wanting nothing more than to be (sexually) with that certain woman, and it is that certain woman wanting nothing more than penetration from that certain man. The fact that they are also great friends/companions outside the bedroom is icing on the cake.

Oh boy...Here we go...

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Re: Re: Ego Investment

There is nothing wrong with "whipped" or "pre whipped"...it is part of the human experience to be in love, or in the state of falling in love,..

Maybe a little more detail will help you understand the state of being 'whipped' and 'pre-whipped'. While I can relate to a genuine desire for a person to want to experience love and all of the biochemistry that goes along with it, it's an entirely different experience when this becomes a socialized and internalized 'need' to be so. The problem with your rationale isn't so much that Shawn stopped 'going out with the boys', but that he wouldn't dare give himself permission to do much of anything independent of his GF. He literally will not do anything unplanned or spontaneous with friends. We've called him on several occasions just to go out for dinner or a quick drink (not clubbing, not sarging) only to have the guy make up excuses on the spot as to why he couldn't go when we knew he could. Within the period of 3 months he'd gone from one controlling LTR to another, only he was in the position of controlling himself.

I've told the guy on several occasions that the more he clings to this girl the more she'll be smothered and if he'd once take an independent initiative she'd feel much more secure and it would strengthen his relationship. He'd never think of it. He's walking a tightrope and praying to all the gods in the universe that she wont break up with him before they discuss marriage. He's got ONEitis in the extreme and this is the root of being 'whipped' or 'pre-whipped'.

Shawn is just one example of dozens more I could go into. Look at the examples WEST COASTER describes, I wish I could say this is the exception to the rule but it's not. I know different guys that I could just as easily describe the same situations for as WEST COASTER gives. Shawn is frustrating because I thought he was finally starting to mature and we had a chance to break him of exactly this moony, suplicating, romanticisim so many guys think appeals to women, but only serves to eventually drive her away, ensnare them in life long predicament or, usually, both.

It's not that I'm anti-marriage (I've been married happily for 9 years), or even anti-LTR. What I'm against is life altering mistakes made because an AFC couldn't get it out of his head that the best way to please a woman is to imitate and identify with her as his only recourse to keeping her interested only to find out how completley fvcked he was once they were married. I didn't (and still don't) want Shawn to turn into one of the dozens of 35-40 something men I counsel who tell me how their wives "give them permission" to watch football or do things they would truly enjoy because their conditioning proceeded from AFC mental models to being mothered by their wives - all of course because they convince themselves that "that's just the way they are" because they never had someone kick themin the ass to consider anything different.

I'm not trying to gloss myself, but I've had countless guys whine to me about how lucky I am to be married to such a great woman and how envious they are; I've had guys say to me "I want what you've got" while they tell me about how they can't get away for half an hour just to talk at a coffee shop because they didn't "clear it with the wife or girlfriend." Sometiems I haven't got the heart to tell them that they'll never have the relationship I have because they wont demand it with their own identity. Women want to marry men, not children and these guys are so ego invested in being as whipped as possible to accomodate them it create this expectation in women who might otherwise never have it. These women all started out as great prospects; attractive, fun, loving, all in the begining, but because the guy becomes a willing participant in his own whipping she will only too readily settle into this role. And this situation is only aggrivated by a guy who will whip himself without her even making an effort to do so becuase he was predisposed (pre-whipped) to do so before they even met.

 

[WestCoaster]

Real men stand up!

Just got clearance for Saturday to watch a football game at a friend's house. He was bummed last night, was worried I wouldn't be able to make it. He CLEARED it with the wife and she OKed it. His wife is nice, but he always has to clear it. OK, I've known this guy for 20 years, he was my college roommate, I like his wife, she knows I'm not a psycho. His two young boys also like me, we play catch with the football and so on ... I'm about as low maintenance as one can get. When the game is over, I leave and don't linger around.

But he still had to clear it.

My best friend is a total MAN. He's having marriage troubles right now, but not because he's an AFC. If I'm going to Seattle to visit, I call him and he says, "Just stay at my place." He doesn't even clear it with the wife (he has three kids), he just says, "You're staying here." He's the man of the house. Yeah, he cooperates with his wife, but he also calls the shots. If it wasn't for his near-six figures job, wifey wouldn't be in the nice house by the way ... she doesn't have a college degree and skills are limited. If he wants to come and visit me, he flies out if his kids don't have activities. Wifey doesn't have a huge say in this. He's the ONLY one of my friends whom the wife has to clear things with, not the other way around. He's the only guy who doesn't take sh-t and isn't an AFC, perhaps that's why his wife is being batty and the marriage isn't working ... he's too much of a man.

I believe in cooperation, but if I hear this from a man one more time, I'm going to scream: "I've to clear it with the boss."

UGH!

 

[redline]

wow! great posts guys, very insightful..

to add some further info, I had a rather frank drunken chat with a mates wife recently, and she told me she actually starts **** with her husband sometimes just to see if he will stand up to her, and she gets pissed off when he doesnt. i get the impression this is perhaps not unusual.


anyway, i wish i had have known this stuff 5 years ago - on reflection, i now realise why some of my relationships, that started so well, ended so badly. but i think the advice to keep quiet on this specific material is probably the best advice, my friends gossip like women (and act like them too, apparently), and i'd rather not get shot down in flames because one of them gets mortally offended by the material here. I think I will go with the "focus on yourself, improve yourself" bit the next time I have to sit through a sob story at the pub.

thanks again guys!

 

[JackPrescott]

Again, you have to fight for balance. On the one hand, if you are in a marriage/relationship, you cannot simply be chained up inside a closet, and forget those things that you loved before you met the lady. If you indeed had a "night out with the boys" that DID NOT involve skirt chasing, that say involved watching an NBA game, eating some hot wings and drinking some beer, so be it. She should not get upset at that, as long as you are coming home at a decent time (If you are shacked up) and dont have strange women calling your cell afterwards. Vice versa. She ought to be able to hang out with her friends without you worrying that she is banging the waiter from the steakhouse on the side, while you are watching the Lakers and the Pistons.

TRUST. On the other hand, given a choice between a night with my lady, and a night with the boys, I'll always take the lady. I've had a lifetimes worth of "boys night out", pool, kareokee, and clubbing and not enough nights of experimenting with the Kama Sutra.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Plain and simple - no woman should ever be giving you permission or 'allowing' you to do anything. This is the primary factor in AFCness. If you ever find yourself in the position of having to "clear" anything with the woman you're in an LTR with, that's a good sign that you're an AFC. The problems start when a guy's default response is to censor and limit himself without thinking about why he feels the need to.

Checking in with your LTR to let her know what you're doing is a world's difference from asking her if it's OK if you do it.