Counterproductive tropes/beliefs/ideologies

[Grounded eagle]

What do you guys think the most counterproductive tropes are in the manosphere today?

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Self improvement. Also framing the red pill as ideology/dogma instead of philosophy or discussion.

 

[Zimbabwe]

Self improvement. Also framing the red pill as ideology/dogma instead of philosophy or discussion.

I don't get why some guys want to completely give up on women while they do self improvement, you don't need to be a buddhist monk to improve your life.

 

[Grounded eagle]

Self improvement. Also framing the red pill as ideology/dogma instead of philosophy or discussion.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Josh Davidson]

I don't get why some guys want to completely give up on women while they do self improvement, you don't need to be a buddhist monk to improve your life.

I think the reason is that pursuing women is very distracting from one's career goals, at least in my experience.

 

[joesknows]

The black pill rhetoric is very seductive and unfortunately potentially destructive for a lot of guys who are on the cusp of giving up on dating.

The sad thing about black pillers is that they are able to recite many of the more troubling aspects of modern dating, but what's perverse and pathetic about it is that they have no strategies to deal with these realities aside from giving up.

They will resort to broad, negative labels and memes such as they're all "attention hors" or "it's over" or whatever nonsense they think will attract an audience.

Misery loves company and the blackpillers are taking certain very serious and troubling issues and trying to paint all of dating as a total nightmare to be avoided.

 

[eli77]

Self improvement. Also framing the red pill as ideology/dogma instead of philosophy or discussion.

elaborate

 

[Josh Davidson]

The black pill rhetoric is very seductive and unfortunately potentially destructive for a lot of guys who are on the cusp of giving up on dating.

The sad thing about black pillers is that they are able to recite many of the more troubling aspects of modern dating, but what's perverse and pathetic about it is that they have no strategies to deal with these realities aside from giving up.

They will resort to broad, negative labels and memes such as they're all "attention hors" or "it's over" or whatever nonsense they think will attract an audience.

Misery loves company and the blackpillers are taking certain very serious and troubling issues and trying to paint all of dating as a total nightmare to be avoided.

I'm not a blackpiller! I've approached over 100 women!

 

[Grounded eagle]

The black pill rhetoric is very seductive and unfortunately potentially destructive for a lot of guys who are on the cusp of giving up on dating.

The sad thing about black pillers is that they are able to recite many of the more troubling aspects of modern dating, but what's perverse and pathetic about it is that they have no strategies to deal with these realities aside from giving up.

They will resort to broad, negative labels and memes such as they're all "attention hors" or "it's over" or whatever nonsense they think will attract an audience.

Misery loves company and the blackpillers are taking certain very serious and troubling issues and trying to paint all of dating as a total nightmare to be avoided.

This is true.If you want to shut a black piller up ask him for solutions.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

Care to elaborate?

Most self-improvement is done through the lens of "I better improve myself so that I will attract more women" or "it's good to self-improve, therefore I will do the things that society tells me are good for me" both of which are fundamentally flawed approaches.

Most self-improvement comes from defining your goal/principles/values and living in accordance with them through your daily habits and actions. I for instance workout and eat well because I want a strong and fit body that is capable of performing its intended function and not becoming weak and prone to disease. I have hobbies that I do not because its "it's good to have hobbies and they make you more interesting" but because I enjoy doing them. I read (certain) books not to "improve my intellect or so people will respect me more" but because I like exploring ideas and it's important for me to have a philosophy to live my life by. Etc.

You can do certain things for the sake of self-improvement, like avoiding porn or processed junk food, exposing yourself to discomfort/pain, but you need to have a specific reasons (values/goals) for doing so or else they'm pointless, you won't learn anything, and probably won't stick with them long-term. Doing things only because people tell they'll make you happier or more successful is the wrong approach, generally. Classic example of this is nowadays is this new fad of insisting you wake up at 5am, without giving any real reason except generic claims that it'll improve your life.

 

[Grounded eagle]

Most self-improvement is done through the lens of "I better improve myself so that I will attract more women" or "it's good to self-improve, therefore I will do the things that society tells me are good for me" both of which are fundamentally flawed approaches.

Most self-improvement comes from defining your goal/principles/values and living in accordance with them through your daily habits and actions. I for instance workout and eat well because I want a strong and fit body that is capable of performing its intended function and not becoming weak and prone to disease. I have hobbies that I do not because its "it's good to have hobbies and they make you more interesting" but because I enjoy doing them. I read (certain) books not to "improve my intellect or so people will respect me more" but because I like exploring ideas and it's important for me to have a philosophy to live my life by. Etc.

You can do certain things for the sake of self-improvement, like avoiding porn or processed junk food, exposing yourself to discomfort/pain, but you need to have a specific reasons (values/goals) for doing so or else they'm pointless, you won't learn anything, and probably won't stick with them long-term. Doing things only because people tell they'll make you happier or more successful is the wrong approach, generally. Classic example of this is nowadays is this new fad of insisting you wake up at 5am, without giving any real reason except generic claims that it'll improve your life.

So when guys here allude to self improvement,what do you think they mean?

 

[bat soup]

I think the alpha/beta thing is very beta.

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

Some observations I would offer, having been here for approaching 6 years, are these:

1. Mistaking intent. As noted eloquently above by @FlexpertHamilton intent, or the “Why” you do something is so critical that it’s importance really cannot be overstated. Existing in an authentic way requires your intent to be congruent with your actions. So if you have a hobby, let’s say golf, you should pursue golf because you enjoy golfing as a primary rationale. Yes it has professional networking benefits in certain circles, yes you might meet a sporty girl who enjoys golf, but those are byproducts of you happening to do something you enjoy. If you were to golf strictly for the networking or dating benefits your whole aura becomes contrived to a degree and people sense this. Golf in that case is a means to an end and this makes others wary. So intent must be authentic.

2. AWALT: No. Not all women are like that. Now before this starts a firestorm allow me to explain. There are great women out there. Most of them are taken already and locked down in a marriage or LTR. So you might not really understand that great women exist or how they behave “in the wild”.

Behavior runs on a continuum from Best/Most ideal to Worst/Intolerable. Open your eyes to behaviors (always rooted in interest level or lack thereof) and pass judgement accordingly. DO NOT give low interest women your valuable time!

A woman who is into you is going to want to sex you up at least on demand and possibly more than that. If she doesn’t want to jump your bones all the time she isn’t red hot about you. Or she has serious issues and hang-ups. Now. If her serious issues and hang ups are rooted in inexperience you have a unique opportunity to mold her into your custom lover. Otherwise it’s either low interest, resource seeking, or something else other than genuine desire for you. Pick a woman who wants you physically and lots of the other issues often complained about here lessen or never surface.

So many posts here arise out of trying to persuade a low interest chick to like a man she’s ho-hum about. Nope. Next these chicks & reserve your time for women who desire you.

3. It’s just your turn: This one comes from the jadedness that comes once the constant pursuit of the conquest has lost its appeal and women become more and more physically interchangeable, which WILL happen after a man has had enough meaningless sex. Men lament the inability of a w h o re to bond but newsflash: this also happens to men. It’s Nihilism in action, and it depresses men when they realize pursuit of the conquest is just like any other dopamine producing pleasure seeking behavior. It is addictive and can leave a man emotionally bereft. That means empty.

The human need for emotional fulfillment gets left out a fair bit around here, but I attribute this to the natural bias toward emptiness and pain that brings men into this community in the first place. The wonderful irony is that there are men here who are successful and well adjusted/calibrated to women. I don’t think enough weight is given to their voices.

If you pay attention to any poster’s content you will learn a great deal about that person’s perspective, values, and beliefs. Be mindful of who you listen to. We all become what we believe.

Cheers

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

So when guys here allude to self improvement,what do you think they mean?

It's not exclusive to this forum its found in all manospheres in general. But generally they do it for external reasons (ego/status/SMV etc) instead of internal reasons, which is futile and ultimately pointless. The same could be said for most things in life. Self-improvement is almost a meaningless expression in this context.

 

[HaleyBaron]

The point of self improvement is to give them training wheels to become a woman catcher. Getting fit, for instance, is a great way to turn a chubby gamer into something more. Seeing the results, seeing the increase in energy, and watching people around him give him more attention is a great ego and confidence boost. That alone is one of the best ways to get a person to where they need to be. Stuff like building a career and other things are also paths to the same goal. So I don't see anything wrong with self improvement, even if it's just through doing one thing. A guy may not need a lot of strength, but strength helps a lot in your daily life. You can lift more things, you have more energy, and all of it accumulates to other parts of your life. Guys with bigger frames are given more respect by men woman and business partners. You arent ****ed with as often. It just works.

 

[Grounded eagle]

It's not exclusive to this forum its found in all manospheres in general. But generally they do it for external reasons (ego/status/SMV etc) instead of internal reasons, which is futile and ultimately pointless. The same could be said for most things in life. Self-improvement is almost a meaningless expression in this context.

Of course it is.Because it is empty.An act. I think we’re on the same page. You just brought out your point in a weird way.Self improvement is something one should do for oneself.Not because of societal norms or expectations.That is when one derives the most fulfillment from it.That said,in that context,I don’t see how it’s a counterproductive belief.

 

[Grounded eagle]

I think the alpha/beta thing is very beta.

How so?

 

[bat soup]

How so?

I think it's exaggerated. The idea that everyone has to become some kind of an arsehole that is rude and selfish and thinks far too much of themselves because of the belief that women like men like that. People take on that idea and start acting like complete diks to everyone just to prove how "alpha" they are, which only makes them unpleasant to be around.

 

[Grounded eagle]

I think it's exaggerated. The idea that everyone has to become some kind of an arsehole that is rude and selfish and thinks far too much of themselves because of the belief that women like men like that. People take on that idea and start acting like complete diks to everyone just to prove how "alpha" they are, which only makes them unpleasant to be around.

When you put it that way, I do agree with you. I have always viewed them as nothing more than terms to describe two different types of men, and I do think that most guys oversimplify what they mean and what they each consist of.

 

[Grounded eagle]

Advice from the old lady:

Some observations I would offer, having been here for approaching 6 years, are these:

1. Mistaking intent. As noted eloquently above by @FlexpertHamilton intent, or the “Why” you do something is so critical that it’s importance really cannot be overstated. Existing in an authentic way requires your intent to be congruent with your actions. So if you have a hobby, let’s say golf, you should pursue golf because you enjoy golfing as a primary rationale. Yes it has professional networking benefits in certain circles, yes you might meet a sporty girl who enjoys golf, but those are byproducts of you happening to do something you enjoy. If you were to golf strictly for the networking or dating benefits your whole aura becomes contrived to a degree and people sense this. Golf in that case is a means to an end and this makes others wary. So intent must be authentic.

2. AWALT: No. Not all women are like that. Now before this starts a firestorm allow me to explain. There are great women out there. Most of them are taken already and locked down in a marriage or LTR. So you might not really understand that great women exist or how they behave “in the wild”.

Behavior runs on a continuum from Best/Most ideal to Worst/Intolerable. Open your eyes to behaviors (always rooted in interest level or lack thereof) and pass judgement accordingly. DO NOT give low interest women your valuable time!

A woman who is into you is going to want to sex you up at least on demand and possibly more than that. If she doesn’t want to jump your bones all the time she isn’t red hot about you. Or she has serious issues and hang-ups. Now. If her serious issues and hang ups are rooted in inexperience you have a unique opportunity to mold her into your custom lover. Otherwise it’s either low interest, resource seeking, or something else other than genuine desire for you. Pick a woman who wants you physically and lots of the other issues often complained about here lessen or never surface.

So many posts here arise out of trying to persuade a low interest chick to like a man she’s ho-hum about. Nope. Next these chicks & reserve your time for women who desire you.

3. It’s just your turn: This one comes from the jadedness that comes once the constant pursuit of the conquest has lost its appeal and women become more and more physically interchangeable, which WILL happen after a man has had enough meaningless sex. Men lament the inability of a w h o re to bond but newsflash: this also happens to men. It’s Nihilism in action, and it depresses men when they realize pursuit of the conquest is just like any other dopamine producing pleasure seeking behavior. It is addictive and can leave a man emotionally bereft. That means empty.

The human need for emotional fulfillment gets left out a fair bit around here, but I attribute this to the natural bias toward emptiness and pain that brings men into this community in the first place. The wonderful irony is that there are men here who are successful and well adjusted/calibrated to women. I don’t think enough weight is given to their voices.

If you pay attention to any poster’s content you will learn a great deal about that person’s perspective, values, and beliefs. Be mindful of who you listen to. We all become what we believe.

Cheers

I agree with your first point,but I disagree with the second.Not too sure about the third.Regarding the second, I do agree,there are probably good women out there.But they are so rare that it is detrimental to a man to go out there and act like he will find one.The chances of finding such a woman are so statistically insignificant that it is unhealthy to think you will.The state of society today doesn’t help either.(Won’t beat that drum,we all know what I’m on about.) I came to the conclusion that AWALT because I genuinely believe that for the most part that is their natural state.It is not rational,it doesn’t make sense,but they will say one thing and do another.And these days?They don’t even bother covering it up. I was having a conversation about marriage with my sister and mother a couple years ago.These were my blue pilled days,so there I was arguing the case for love and all that Disney crap being the backbone of a strong marriage. I was laughed out of the room.They were talking about a man’s monetary resources,saying,”Love doesn’t pay the bills. You can’t buy expensive things with love,etc.”It is more prudent,it makes more sense for a man to believe that AWALT.About the third point,the very first time I heard the phrase,”It’s just your turn,”,I heard it from a girl.Not a guy.Granted,it could just be that she happened to be young and in her party years,but if most of them are thinking that way at that age,then by default is it not just most guys turn until said girls hit the wall and find find someone to settle down with? I don’t know,I could be wrong,but that’s the way it looks to me.