Can you hit someone that pushes you?

Reyaj

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Check out this clip of Danzig (a has been heavy metal star) getting knocked out by a bouncer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfD7agP1yxw

The bouncer swings at him after he gets pushed. Is this justifiable force? With all the bs laws out there I want to know if I could do the same in that situation and not get in trouble.

BB looking for your opinion on this one!
 

Ken785

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Im no expert. But i think if a guy violently pushes you (which is considered assault), and you punch him one time its considered defense. If hes knocked out (and no longer a threat to you)...any other punches by you after the fact would be considered assault on your part.
 

Bible_Belt

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Ken's right.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071212205321AACz80O
http://www.shouselaw.com/self-defense.html
http://www.knifedealsplus.com/California-Law.html

Look at the moment just after Danzig pushed the bouncer. Danzig is leaning forward aggressively. It would be reasonable to believe that Danzig is going to throw a punch himself. The bouncer's reasonable belief that he is about to be harmed is the key. If Danzig had pushed the bouncer the same way, but then immediately started apologizing or backing away, then the bouncer's belief of impending harm would no longer be reasonable, and the punch would not be self-defense.

Surprisingly to me, California does not have a "duty of retreat.' Several states require that even if you are pushed, you must at least attempt to run away, before you are allowed to claim self-defense.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/...eeping-self-defense-laws-just-like-florida’s/
http://volokh.com/2012/04/02/im-going-to-stab-you-******s-a-duty-to-retreat-case/

Even when states have a duty of retreat, that duty does not exist when you are attacked in your own home.

Remember also that there are two sets of laws - criminal and civil. The burden of proof required against you in a civil case is only a "preponderance," which means a 51% chance you did it. In a criminal trial, the standard is beyond reasonable doubt, which is much higher than 51%. So there are a lot of cases where the defendant would escape jail, but still end up having to pay money in a civil verdict.

Even after you know all of the law, you will find that circumstances often dictate the outcome more so than the letter of the law. People die from fistfights all the time, not from the punch, but from hitting their head on the concrete as they fall. Even if you were perfectly justified in a criminal law sense, if you end up killing someone, I would guess that you would still end up having to pay a civil judgment at least, especially if you had money and assets.

http://www.ittendojo.org/articles/general-4.htm

(Article written by a lawyer and directed at martial artists)

...the wise martial artist will attempt to avoid any hint of liability or criminal conduct. The following general principles may be of value in this endeavor.

• Avoid physical confrontation. If there is a safe avenue of retreat, use it (regardless of jurisdiction). At a minimum, retreat to the wall.

• If confrontation is inevitable, give a warning when defending property, unless doing so would be dangerous or futile (which is often the case). This does not mean that you should list your qualifications, as the samurai of old were wont to do. Rather, you should simply give the aggressor notice that you intend to use force against him, in order to allow him to reconsider his position.

• Ensure that you are not seen as the aggressor. This does not require ‘taking the first hit’, but it does require being certain that physical contact is imminent prior to reacting (for an in-depth examination of the danger here, see the Goetz case).

• Be aware of the aggravating and mitigating factors. Is there a size, age, or ability differential? Are you or the attacker armed or trained? All of these factors will help you determine the appropriate level of force.

• Use only the amount of force necessary to deter the attack. This does not require the use of ineffective technique, but rather mature reflection prior to a confrontation about what technique (including flight) is appropriate in which situation. It would be wise to introduce this as part of training.

• Once the initial threat is neutralized, stop. This does not mean that you must give your opponent a fighting chance. Rather, you may immobilize the attacker while awaiting the police, but do no further damage.

• When intervening on behalf of a third party, ensure (as much as possible) that the intervention is justified and necessary. As a rule, interference in domestic disputes is unwise. Reconciliations can mean trouble for the would-be rescuer.

• Remember that, in this country, human rights are superior to property rights. The use of force in the protection of property is very risky.
 

BigJimbo

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Wow, you boys solved that one in a few posts. Funny how in law school you have to spend around four hours touching on all the sides in such a case.

Here is the REAL TRUTH. If the person who used force has ANY money or is linked to anyone with ANY money there will be a lawsuit. 90% of the time there will be a settlement that will not be reported. That is the REAL ANSWER.
 

Reyaj

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Thanks guys! I agree it was legit... I actually made a mistake in my post after doing some research. That wasn't a bouncer that punched him but rather a member of a different band

For those of you who don't know who this 1 hit Wonder is here it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdBcO9xDnr0
 

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don't

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wITHIN the hour of my getting involved in something civilly "suable", everything that I owned would be in the name of some friend, some corporation, trust, etc, if it wasn't that way already ( as it should be). No, that is NOT 'hiding money", if you have not yet received notice of your being sued.
 

don't

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the real answer, of course, is to "trap" that pushing hand between your palms and your body, bend over swiftly, and put him on his knees in a wristlock. then, back up, proning him out, and if need be, kick him a good one in the face, using the BALL of your foot, under your toes.
 

Bible_Belt

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I like wrist locks. They would technically be battery, but they will get you in a lot less trouble than punches and kicks, largely because the witnesses have no idea what they are seeing or how badly it hurts. Like anything else in life, it takes practice and training, but when someone is good at wrist locks, you will just fall to the ground crying in pain before you know what happened. But that is after many years of training. Watching a youtube video doesn't count. You said in another thread that you have a black belt, so you know what I mean.
 

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metoo

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it didn't take me years. It took about 6 months, before I was kicking butt on fellow trainees who had been training for twice as long. A LOT depends upon how often and how hard you work at it, and what sort of instructor you have.
 

Reyaj

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BB check out this link for some real assault

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Jz0HNgoII&feature=related


This happend at the end of a pro boxing match when the loser was angered over the judge's decision.

I don't know if you know Max Kellerman (famous boxing analyst) but the perpetrator ended up murdering his brother. Clearly a disturbed psycho..
 
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