Most people say that it's impossible to bulk and cut up at the same time. Is it just not as efficient to weight train one day, cardio the next, for 6/7 days for 3 months, than weight train 3/7 days for 1.5 months then cardio 3/7 days for 1.5 months? I don't understand what is the logic behind this. Don't they all reach the same goals at the same time?
Bulking/cutting at same time, vs Bulking then cutting
- Thread starter Solarium
- Start date
diablo
Master Don Juan
The first thing that comes to my mind is that if you want to burn off fat, you need to build muscle while strictly watching your diet. Think about it this way: each pound of muscle requires 50 calories a day just to maintain it. If you put on 10 additional pounds of muscle (which over 6 weeks shouldn't be that hard if you're actually putting effort into it), then that's 500 extra calories you burn every day by doing nothing. Assuming your diet remains the same, and that it was healthy to begin with, you'll lose a pound of fat (3500 cals) simply by living. Add to that a workout regimen, enough cardio (20-30 minutes), and you're going to get big, lose weight, and feel great.
diablo's definitely on the right track, but solarium allow me to elaborate on where your logic fails: more than half of muscle building is happening on off days (since you spend a significant part of lifting days beating them up). so it's not like you're switching off between muscle building and fat burning every other day. and the trouble with bulk-cut cycles (for anybody but pros actively competing, etc.) is that lots of guys tend to overshoot on both, getting sloppy on the bulk and then going psycho on the cut.Solarium said:
BUT--you can build muscle & reduce bodyfat at the same time, as diablo is describing, by focusing on diet & lifting, with cardio as a distant third. you can take lots of steps to be sure that you're never depositing anything into bodyfat (for instance, by keeping your insulin levels on an even keel & eating 5-6 meals/day every 3 hours or so) even while you give your body plenty of protein & rest for the 46 or so hours after each lifting session.
stronglifts
Master Don Juan
Bulking & cutting at the same time is having 2 goals. It's always hard to concentrate on two things at the same time, even more when the two things influence eachothers directly.Solarium said:
The fast way to bulking is to eat quality food in mass quantities day after day combined with a good training program.
The fast way to cutting is to drop calories, eat clean food & do cardio.
In-between there are other methods where you could bulk "clean" while not adding fat.
The questions are:
1) how fast do you want it?
2) how is your recovery?
What one needs to do is monitor their calories to see how it affects them. You can get bigger and stay lean at the same time. Now you may gain a bit of body fat, but you can expect some with extra muscle growth.
Lets say you are 150lbs @ 11%bf and you go up to 165lbs with 12%bf
Is 1% a huge deal? No, cause you can fluctuate a few % on any given month. (what you dont want is what is in the info later in the post)
You can get bigger and stay fairly lean. What happens to some depending on the body type, is they go way too high on calories and then start gaining too much fat and then dont tweak anything.
Remember too, muscle weighs more than fat. (just in case you dont know)
But again, dont be scared if you check yourself on a body fat scale and it goes up a hair. Not only are they always off, you cant just gauge fat. If you gained 15lbs of muscle and only went up 1% i'd say that would be a hell of an achievement.
The big key in keeping all the fat off is to gain it SLOWLY about .25lbs to .5lbs of muscle per week.
If you eat like a madman over what you need, then you start accumulating the fat.
Read this information....
"Understand that it's possible to gain more weight without adding fat because when you increase your muscle size you also increase glycogen and water storage in those muscles. More muscle equals more glycogen.
A trained individual can store up to 40g of glycogen per 100g of muscle tissue. So if you're gaining ten pounds of new muscle (4545g) you'll also increase glycogen storage by around four pounds (1.8kg). So if you gain ten pounds of muscle, your scale gain will actually be closer to fourteen pounds (if you didn't gain any fat).
Chances are if you're gaining more than three pounds per month, you're gaining some fat."
Also you may want to digest this information as well.....
" Body Image As An Enemy"
''But I gained fifteen pounds in three months and I didn't gain fat.''
This is something I hear often. If it's not possible to gain more than a few pounds of muscle per month (or around six pounds over a three month period) how come you see so many people claiming to have gained heaps of muscle without getting fatter?
It's most likely due to what I call the ''lean threshold.'' You see, there's a point (a certain body fat percentage) where you start to look lean (around 10% for most men). There's also a point where you start to look fat (around 18-20% for most men). Then in between you have a certain zone where you basically look the same; you aren't lean enough to look defined so you don't really have any muscle separation.
At that point, even if you gain a few pounds of fat, you won't visually see the difference. This is compounded by the fact that you're seeing yourself every day, so you might not notice the small changes in appearance. Most men won't be able to see a visual difference in muscularity between 13 and 16%. But if you're 200 pounds, going from 13 to 16% body fat can mean a six pound gain in fat!
So a guy could very well have gained six pounds of muscle, six to seven pounds of fat, and two pounds of glycogen and water over the three month period, and he'll actually believe that he gained fifteen pounds of solid muscle because he looks to be about the same body fat percentage.
Now, repeat that over a few training cycles and you have a guy who could end up with a gain of fifteen to twenty pounds in body fat! One day he'll wake up and find a fat bastard looking back at him in the mirror, then he'll need to diet down to look remotely decent!"
Hope some of this helps
Lets say you are 150lbs @ 11%bf and you go up to 165lbs with 12%bf
Is 1% a huge deal? No, cause you can fluctuate a few % on any given month. (what you dont want is what is in the info later in the post)
You can get bigger and stay fairly lean. What happens to some depending on the body type, is they go way too high on calories and then start gaining too much fat and then dont tweak anything.
Remember too, muscle weighs more than fat. (just in case you dont know)
But again, dont be scared if you check yourself on a body fat scale and it goes up a hair. Not only are they always off, you cant just gauge fat. If you gained 15lbs of muscle and only went up 1% i'd say that would be a hell of an achievement.
The big key in keeping all the fat off is to gain it SLOWLY about .25lbs to .5lbs of muscle per week.
If you eat like a madman over what you need, then you start accumulating the fat.
Read this information....
"Understand that it's possible to gain more weight without adding fat because when you increase your muscle size you also increase glycogen and water storage in those muscles. More muscle equals more glycogen.
A trained individual can store up to 40g of glycogen per 100g of muscle tissue. So if you're gaining ten pounds of new muscle (4545g) you'll also increase glycogen storage by around four pounds (1.8kg). So if you gain ten pounds of muscle, your scale gain will actually be closer to fourteen pounds (if you didn't gain any fat).
Chances are if you're gaining more than three pounds per month, you're gaining some fat."
Also you may want to digest this information as well.....
" Body Image As An Enemy"
''But I gained fifteen pounds in three months and I didn't gain fat.''
This is something I hear often. If it's not possible to gain more than a few pounds of muscle per month (or around six pounds over a three month period) how come you see so many people claiming to have gained heaps of muscle without getting fatter?
It's most likely due to what I call the ''lean threshold.'' You see, there's a point (a certain body fat percentage) where you start to look lean (around 10% for most men). There's also a point where you start to look fat (around 18-20% for most men). Then in between you have a certain zone where you basically look the same; you aren't lean enough to look defined so you don't really have any muscle separation.
At that point, even if you gain a few pounds of fat, you won't visually see the difference. This is compounded by the fact that you're seeing yourself every day, so you might not notice the small changes in appearance. Most men won't be able to see a visual difference in muscularity between 13 and 16%. But if you're 200 pounds, going from 13 to 16% body fat can mean a six pound gain in fat!
So a guy could very well have gained six pounds of muscle, six to seven pounds of fat, and two pounds of glycogen and water over the three month period, and he'll actually believe that he gained fifteen pounds of solid muscle because he looks to be about the same body fat percentage.
Now, repeat that over a few training cycles and you have a guy who could end up with a gain of fifteen to twenty pounds in body fat! One day he'll wake up and find a fat bastard looking back at him in the mirror, then he'll need to diet down to look remotely decent!"
Hope some of this helps
That's an awsome article. Cleared up a lot of things for me. It also contradicts what www.skinnyguy.com has to say too, that's why he had to lean up the fats after the 10 week period because he gained just as much fat as he did muscle. That tells me that it's more healthy to gain slowly and to bulk up immediately. I'll start to watch my nutrition values too.Omen said:
Warboss Alex
Master Don Juan
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Definitely do-able if you have the patience. People who think it isn't possible don't have a clue about how the body works. However, it requires attention to detail, dedication and consistency which most lack.. and most lifters just want to see the scale going up a lb or two every week and hope it's muscle.
The truth is, if you can see a linear bodyweight increase over time then you're either genetically elite or (much more likely) getting fat. Hence why the "I'm gonna do a bulk cycle for 12 weeks and gain 12lbs/1 lb a week" is fundamentally flawed.
However if you do have the patience and know-how it's an awesome way of staying lean/getting lean and gaining muscle consistently (but at a slower pace of both of course).
The truth is, if you can see a linear bodyweight increase over time then you're either genetically elite or (much more likely) getting fat. Hence why the "I'm gonna do a bulk cycle for 12 weeks and gain 12lbs/1 lb a week" is fundamentally flawed.
However if you do have the patience and know-how it's an awesome way of staying lean/getting lean and gaining muscle consistently (but at a slower pace of both of course).
Ill second that. I never had to lose a lot of fat, but I only started a cutting phase after bulking up. And at my frame of 6'3 and around 200lbs (I know it aint all that bulky
), the cutting phase is probably a lot easier than if I was 160-170, because I can still consume more food...as one usually determines the number of calories and amount of fat one can eat in relation to their bodyweight.LoneSilver
Master Don Juan
Truly impressive.
This is my goal to remain the same weight give or take a few pounds and build the muscle from there.
LoneSilver
This is my goal to remain the same weight give or take a few pounds and build the muscle from there.
LoneSilver
EFFORT said:
The key to this whole sport is patience, dedication, and consistency as said above.Warboss Alex said:
I'll tell you why people I see in the gym fail...
They only do 50% of what they need too. For instance they lift, but then dont eat right, or eat at all.
They go through the motions of a lift and that is it. There really is no concentration into the lift.
They do bench press 3x a week (how the hell do their muscles recover) and these are the people who bench press MWF at LEAST once per day if not two.
You can weed out all the people who are just never going to get anywhere. And it doesn't have to mean huge either. You can look great lean and cut, or get really strong. It isn't all about getting big for some.
But you will see people who wont achieve ANY goal what so ever. I see these guys bring in 1 gallon jugs of water and you know what? First off, who the hell needs to drink that much in one setting? NO ONE. Second, no one really does.
For most of those 1 gallon jug guys, its to look cool. I am fine with a 32oz bottle of water and filling it up multiple times a day. I no reason to carry that heavy of a deal around. Also too, you'll see most these guys have it all left anyway.
Not to mention, to the mind, it is much easier to consume what you need to do in smaller amounts. Its that whole psychology deal where you go... OH CRAP, there is no way in hell I can drink this gallon of water. You see it, know its a lot, and then cant do it.
Take a 16oz bottle, fill it a few times a day, or a 32oz and it will be much easier.
Anayway... most of the puzzle to this sport is up above. You need all of those to succeed, and dont leave any of them out.
You also have to make sure DIET, SLEEP, & RECOVERY are all in place.
People fail too cause they dont rest. They lift then get 2hrs a sleep a day and party till the cows go home. I'm not saying you cant party or have fun, but you cant do it as much if you want the so called amazing physique.
Just a rant, but you'd be surprised at how many in the gym you lift in, aren't even close to knowing what it takes, or are even close to doing what it takes.
What are you talking about?Omen said:
If i have a giant jug of something i end up drinking it all. Pretty quickly actually. If i don't have it sitting right there i don't bother to go fill it up all that often. I don't even think "oh no i have to drink this all." I think "whoa where'd that all go" when i reach for it again (out of habit by now having it there all day) and it's empty.
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skip this
This is the same reason why when i drink alcohol i tend to get really drunk if anyone else is buying or filling up my mug with beer. I just keep drinking without thinking about it or realizing someone keeps refilling me. My girlfriends like to do this to me since i'm quite the amusing drunk... and i always end up talking dirty as sh1t during drunk sex and they love it. Most recently my ex was buying me diet coke and rums and without telling me switched them to doubles and i actually didn't even notice i had finished two let alone 5. Cute. Ok, just a story =p
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Often when people get a big meal they tend to finish it all even if they've stopped being hungry and before the "i'm full" pains start to kick in. But if they had a bit smaller of a meal they would have been completely satisfied with that too.
hey while we're discussing fat loss warboss or anyone with knowledge, can i substitute jumping robe steadily for 30min b4 breakky instead of walking b4 breakky for awhile? cause i wake up early and its freaking freezing here. (winter) like seriously cold in the morning....btw im using a total body workout x3 a week, trying to reduce fat gain muscle.
Warboss Alex
Master Don Juan
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total body workouts are not optimal to gain muscle as they tend to walk the fine line between performance and overtraining. but it might work for you.int3l said:
as for cardio, jump rope is too high impact for my liking. if you wrap up warm and go out walking in the freezing cold you will achieve a better rate of fat burn because your body spends more calories to heat itself up.
ah yeah...no pain no gain. lol
and really TBT does that ay...well we'll see how a few months of this total body works out...then if that doesn't work then i'll....cry myself to sleep. actually i dunno, i'll probs go back to a split. then again im not looking to gain much...lol you know the deal warboss lol.
edit: btw how do i know if im overtraining or not? im assuimg im supposed to feel like im seriously tired after a Total body workout, but usually the soreness lasts a day or so....this is normal right? i'm also taking protein powder after a workout session.
yeah...
and really TBT does that ay...well we'll see how a few months of this total body works out...then if that doesn't work then i'll....cry myself to sleep. actually i dunno, i'll probs go back to a split. then again im not looking to gain much...lol you know the deal warboss lol.
edit: btw how do i know if im overtraining or not? im assuimg im supposed to feel like im seriously tired after a Total body workout, but usually the soreness lasts a day or so....this is normal right? i'm also taking protein powder after a workout session.
yeah...
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