Bulk or Cut First

[sadburger]

Hey Guys,

I've been keeping a lifting / progress journal on this site, and I'm still doing well with my diet (on the first few weeks of the anabolic diet) and seeing decent gains at the gym (about a week and a half into my program so far).

My question is this: After my body has fully adapted to the diet (about 4 weeks or so I'm told)... should I keep going as I am, eating heavy (18 calories per lb, so about 3800 cals a day right now) and trying to add 5lbs or so to each of my lifts per week, in a bulking phase, or should I do a 8-12 week "cut" first and then bulk from there?

I'm currently 6'2", 212 lbs, and about 21% bodyfat. I ultimately want to end up around 10-12% bodyfat, although I know it will take awhile. Most of my lifts are still pretty light because I just really started lifting, so I'm not sure if it would be more beneficial to me for now to just not worry about shedding bodyfat and bulk up and get stronger and increase my lifts, or if I would be okay to do a cutting phase for a few months and try to drop 5-6% bodyfat (or more, if possible... I've heard some great stories about people doing cuts for the first time from my bodyfat range and getting into the low teens in a matter of months) and only then do a bulk phase, and cycle between the two until I am where I want

I've been pretty big (heavy, flabby) for awhile now so if it is best to just do a bulk period (say another couple months to focus on getting my lifts up) before I try to cut, I can deal with it, but I know I would have a lot more confidence and feel better if I were able to lower my bodyfat down ASAP.

What do you guys think?

 

[backbreaker]

Cut. the beneifts are tenfold. first, you will look better quicker which will give you incentive to go on. To bulk then trim will take alot longer to see the results you want, at least when you cut, after a month or so it becomes notable. Also, when you bulk, you will be putting on MORE fat as well as muscle.. it's no way to get around it. you will look in the mirror and say to yourself.. I'm getting BIGGER and be discouraged to quit.

 

[JoeBlack]

agreed... At 21% you really need to bring that down to a better level.

Most people bulk, then cut, bulk, then cut etc...

You are at the point where you need to cut for sure... get down to 12% or so and then give yourself a bit pat on the back and get bulking... I wouldn't go up to 21% again though...

 

[EFFORT]

why not just do both? Your on the anabolic diet which will lean you out also add low intensity cardio 4-5 days a week for 45min-1hour.

 

[blackbelt2k]

a little off topic, but how do you calculate bodyfat? I've seen the calipeirs at GNC, but i don't quite understand. For instance, the skin folds on my arms, thighs, are always less than that around my abdomen. Now i know fat is first stored around the gut, but wouldn't the bodyfat measured from the arms/thighs, be inaccurate when compared to abs?

 

[JoeBlack]

You actually bring up a very good point.

If you tend to store fat particularly on one of the sites, then the overall measurement can indeed be skewed.

The best thing I find is to simply record skinfolds. if they are going up you are gaining fat and if they are going down you are losing fat.

Also, use the mirror a bit too...

 

[sadburger]

Will you post your diet?

Varies day to day, but I am basically doing a 60/40 Fat protein split, staying under 30 carbs a day, and shooting for 3k to 3500 calories a day (about 16-17 calories per lb).

Here is a typical day:
7:00 AM:
Four Eggs scrambled with cheddar cheese and about 1/4 lb of ground beef and some zuchinni / spinach / peppers / something cooked in olive oil (cumin, pepper and salt to taste)

10:00 AM:
small snack here, usually nuts (macadamias are good) or pepperoni bites or something, about 2-300 calories

1:00 PM:
3/4 lb of ground beef w/cheese, 10 fish oil caps

4:30 PM (about 30-45 minutes pre-workout):
1.5 Scoops of Gold Standard 100% Whey (about 35g whey protein isolate)

6:30 PM (Immediately post workout):
2 Scoops whey plus creatine (about 50g whey protein isolate + 5g creatine monohydrate... may be switching this out after I have a chance to research creatine types more, although I feel like it is beneficial)

8:30 PM:
Large Salad (I like the 50/50 baby spinach and baby lettuce mix) with about 4-6 oz of pre-cooked skinless chicken, olive oil and vinegar and another 10 fish oil caps

According to my fitday.com account, this gives the following (I've defined all custom foods so fitday.com is very easy to use):
Calories: 3280
Protein (g): 315 (40%)
Fat (g): 205 (58%)
Carbs (g): 21 (2%)

I also take a multivitamin in the morning, and fiber supplement with my last meal. Most of my fat intake comes during breakfast and lunch, and then its a lot of protein from there on out. If I don't feel like ground beef I will switch it out for some grilled chicken from El Pollo Loco (really good, no carbs fairly high fat and protein). Usually like 3 legs and 3 thighs or something.


For cutting I'd probably first drop to about 2500 calories, then 2000. Same diet, smaller portions. I'd probably change my fat/prot percentages to 55/45... I think then all I would really need to change would be to reduce my eggs to 2, cut my cheese down to about half (using about 1 cup per day right now) cut my ground beef in half, and reduce my "snack" meal at 10 to something around 100 cals or less. I'd throw in a green tea supplement as well, as I've heard good things about them for fat burning.

 

[sadburger]

a little off topic, but how do you calculate bodyfat? I've seen the calipeirs at GNC, but i don't quite understand. For instance, the skin folds on my arms, thighs, are always less than that around my abdomen. Now i know fat is first stored around the gut, but wouldn't the bodyfat measured from the arms/thighs, be inaccurate when compared to abs?

I use a Taylor home bodyfat scale. Supposed to be fairly accurrate, good enough for me at least

 

[sadburger]

why not just do both? Your on the anabolic diet which will lean you out also add low intensity cardio 4-5 days a week for 45min-1hour.

Well I indeed to keep working and increasing my lifts, but I'm mainly concerned with caloric intake when I say "cut" or "bulk"

Do I eat over maintenance to build mass, or below to drop fat I'm thinking I will do a cut for about 12 weeks and see where that gets me, and then bulk from there. I'm hoping since I'm still pretty new to the lifting and still getting decent protein amounts I will be able to build strength regardless of whether I cut or not, and then when I'm ready to do a bulk period in a few months I'll have a stronger base to work off of and less fat to boot

 

[backbreaker]

it's not humanly possible to cut and bulk at the same time.

cutting involves eating less calories than you burn.

bulking involves eating MORE calories than you born.

KISS. you are overweight..t rust me. Cut.

 

[EFFORT]

it's not humanly possible to cut and bulk at the same time.

cutting involves eating less calories than you burn.

bulking involves eating MORE calories than you born.

KISS. you are overweight..t rust me. Cut.

instead of using the terms cutting and bulking a better way of looking at it is losing fat and gaining muscle at the sametime. If you'd just add morning cardio to what your doing now your body comp would be a lot different in 12weeks (lower bf and more muscle)

 

[Quagmire911]

It's called a bloody search function dammit!

READ THIS:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114618

Ignore the **** that said putting on muscle and losing fat is impossible. Complete bollocks. You need to do what the above post says my friend. There is a lot of good posts on lifting and diet on this site. Look in the sticky at the top for more good reads that will educate you on all this stuff. Unless you are morbidly obese there is no need to "cut", and even then lifting weights, doing the cardio, having the caloric excess and the six meals a day would still put you in the right direction. It would be your conditioning base that might be the issue if you are really fat and unfit. Anyway please READ...

Good luck.

 

[backbreaker]

it's not possible to GAIN muscle and loose fat at the same time... you can tone muscle you have while loosing fat, but you can't put on muscle and loose fat, it requires too different ways of training/eating habits.

 

[Quagmire911]

it's not possible to GAIN muscle and loose fat at the same time... you can tone muscle you have while loosing fat, but you can't put on muscle and loose fat, it requires too different ways of training/eating habits.

Incorrect.

 

[Kev07]

Varies day to day, but I am basically doing a 60/40 Fat protein split, staying under 30 carbs a day, and shooting for 3k to 3500 calories a day (about 16-17 calories per lb).

Here is a typical day:
7:00 AM:
Four Eggs scrambled with cheddar cheese and about 1/4 lb of ground beef and some zuchinni / spinach / peppers / something cooked in olive oil (cumin, pepper and salt to taste)

10:00 AM:
small snack here, usually nuts (macadamias are good) or pepperoni bites or something, about 2-300 calories

1:00 PM:
3/4 lb of ground beef w/cheese, 10 fish oil caps

4:30 PM (about 30-45 minutes pre-workout):
1.5 Scoops of Gold Standard 100% Whey (about 35g whey protein isolate)

6:30 PM (Immediately post workout):
2 Scoops whey plus creatine (about 50g whey protein isolate + 5g creatine monohydrate... may be switching this out after I have a chance to research creatine types more, although I feel like it is beneficial)

8:30 PM:
Large Salad (I like the 50/50 baby spinach and baby lettuce mix) with about 4-6 oz of pre-cooked skinless chicken, olive oil and vinegar and another 10 fish oil caps

According to my fitday.com account, this gives the following (I've defined all custom foods so fitday.com is very easy to use):
Calories: 3280
Protein (g): 315 (40%)
Fat (g): 205 (58%)
Carbs (g): 21 (2%)

I also take a multivitamin in the morning, and fiber supplement with my last meal. Most of my fat intake comes during breakfast and lunch, and then its a lot of protein from there on out. If I don't feel like ground beef I will switch it out for some grilled chicken from El Pollo Loco (really good, no carbs fairly high fat and protein). Usually like 3 legs and 3 thighs or something.


For cutting I'd probably first drop to about 2500 calories, then 2000. Same diet, smaller portions. I'd probably change my fat/prot percentages to 55/45... I think then all I would really need to change would be to reduce my eggs to 2, cut my cheese down to about half (using about 1 cup per day right now) cut my ground beef in half, and reduce my "snack" meal at 10 to something around 100 cals or less. I'd throw in a green tea supplement as well, as I've heard good things about them for fat burning.

you sir, are on a BEAUTIFUL diet, I wish I could eat like you. :cheer:

 

[Kev07]

it's not possible to GAIN muscle and loose fat at the same time... you can tone muscle you have while loosing fat, but you can't put on muscle and loose fat, it requires too different ways of training/eating habits.

at the SAME time, no, but that doesn't mean you have to go bulking and cutting all the time.

you can definately gain muscle and lose fat all in the same week/month, but i would expect you can't gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously minute by minute

you're technically going on bulking/cutting phases throughout the day.

 

[EFFORT]

edit mis read your post kev. Anyways backbreaker building muscle and losing fat at the same time is very possible. Its not even up for debate.

 

[Kev07]

edit mis read your post kev. Anyways backbreaker building muscle and losing fat at the same time is very possible. Its not even up for debate.

To top it off, since i started working out, i started at 174, now I am 167, bench almost 40 pounds more than before, squat almost 100 pounds more than before, deadlift almost 100 pounds more than before, can do 4 pull ups in opposed to one, and other stuff all over, explain it.

 

[JoeBlack]

Listen,

Don't specifically cut - I.e go cardio crazy and eat low calories.

If you are 21%, it is possible to reduce your bodyfat and gain muscle. It becomes much harder once you get leaner.

Just eat well, train hard and the changes will come. If you really feel the fat is not dropping off, lower the calories a tad.

 

[mrRuckus]

Calories: 3280
Protein (g): 315 (40%)
Fat (g): 205 (58%)
Carbs (g): 21 (2%)


For cutting I'd probably first drop to about 2500 calories, then 2000. Same diet, smaller portions. I'd probably change my fat/prot percentages to 55/45... I think then all I would really need to change would be to reduce my eggs to 2, cut my cheese down to about half (using about 1 cup per day right now) cut my ground beef in half, and reduce my "snack" meal at 10 to something around 100 cals or less. I'd throw in a green tea supplement as well, as I've heard good things about them for fat burning.

That's about what I do exactly except you have 15g more protein and 100g more fat. You weigh more than I. I eat carbs postworkout though and no carbs on the weekend. I get between 2100-2300 a day with the lower being on non-workout days. I'm not really doing a cut though, more of a recomposition. I'm definitely gaining strength as I slowly strip the fat off. My weight barely moves but the caliper measurements shrink.

Why do you want to cut your ground beef and eggs down? I'm eating about 1 lb of 80/20 ground beef a day and 4 eggs. They're not keeping any fat on you. If you're going to cut i think you'd probably lower the cheese and nuts.

Yeah definitely take the green tea. But watch it since it stains teeth pretty well. Whitening strips takes care of it though if you can bother to do them every few months.... or get the capsules.

I'm also taking some sesamin oil to help with fat loss.