buddhism ideas are depressing?

[kickureface]

anyone familiar or have some basic knowledge of buddhism? im taking a class on buddhist literature, and so far the buddhist philosophy is FULL of negativity, that life is all suffering and stuff like that.
am i missing something? buddhism always struck me as a religion of greatness and inner strength (enlightenment) but how can anyone live with so many negative thoughts??!

 

[Last Man Standing]

Google it - religion is not to be discussed here!!!! JHWH is the only GOD!!!!!

 

[Rhoto]

Because Buddhism accepts the fact of suffering, and gets over it. Essentially.

 

[kickureface]

would you agree that it is quite negative in term of mindset?

 

[Aboleo]

One day the Master announced that a young monk had reached an advanced state of enlightment. The news caused some stir. Some of the monks went to see the young monk. "We heard you are enlightened. Is that true?" they asked.
"It is," he replied.

"And how do you feel?"

"As miserable as ever," said the monk.

It is said that the truth will set you free, but it won't always make you happy.

 

[Obsidian]

Buddhism regards life as something to escape via reincarnation, Nirvana, etc., whereas Christianity regards life as something to preserve unto eternity. Both of them recognize that the current order is deeply flawed, however. Christianity seeks to overturn the depressing order (and promises that God eventually will), whereas Buddhism does not have such a goal, as far as I know.

But if life were not miserable, then there would be no need to obtain enlightment, or reach nirvana, or anything like that.

I never really liked Eastern religions much because they promote the idea of eliminating desire instead of working harder to satisfy it.

 

[Bible_Belt]

The powers that be should note that we can have a discussion about religion without it being a big deal. Threads get closed because it is supposed to be so awful to share controversial religious viewpoints with each other, this is a site about getting laid, after all. Except, if we would let people make religious rants that reveal all of their personal psychological issues, then when they posted threads about girls and relationships not going well, people who had read the rant could be like, "dude, remember all of those issues you had with ___ religious topic, those same personal issues are impacting your relationship with your girl. "

 

[Aboleo]

Buddhism regards life as something to escape via reincarnation, Nirvana, etc., whereas Christianity regards life as something to preserve unto eternity. Both of them recognize that the current order is deeply flawed, however. Christianity seeks to overturn the depressing order (and promises that God eventually will), whereas Buddhism does not have such a goal, as far as I know.

Ever read the books of Ecclesiastes or Jeremiah? They are hardly 'up-lifting' or filled with the promise of finding 'happiness'... not any more than Buddhism offers, anyway. Christianity and Buddhism are more alike than you realise. After all, many paths lead from the foot of the mountian to the summit, but at the highest point we all stare at the single bright moon.

But if life were not miserable, then there would be no need to obtain enlightment, or reach nirvana, or anything like that.

Thats a very good point.

I never really liked Eastern religions much because they promote the idea of eliminating desire instead of working harder to satisfy it.

No, it teaches eliminating desires by acknowledgeing them, but without giving 'in' to them. Here is a good story to lead the example I am trying to make here...

Two traveling monks reached a river where they met a young woman. Wary of the current, she asked if they could carry her across. One of the monks hesitated, but the other quickly picked her up onto his shoulders, transported her across the water, and put her down on the other bank. She thanked him and departed.

As the monks continued on their way, the one was brooding and preoccupied. Unable to hold his silence, he spoke out. "Brother, our spiritual training teaches us to avoid any contact with women, but you picked that one up on your shoulders and carried her!"

"Brother," the second monk replied, "I set her down on the other side, while you are still carrying her."

As for working hard in order to attain what we desire, well...

There was once a stone cutter who was dissatisfied with himself and with his position in life.
One day he passed a wealthy merchant's house. Through the open gateway, he saw many fine possessions and important visitors. "How powerful that merchant must be!" thought the stone cutter. He became very envious and wished that he could be like the merchant.

To his great surprise, he suddenly became the merchant, enjoying more luxuries and power than he had ever imagined, but envied and detested by those less wealthy than himself. Soon a high official passed by, carried in a sedan chair, accompanied by attendants and escorted by soldiers beating gongs. Everyone, no matter how wealthy, had to bow low before the procession. "How powerful that official is!" he thought. "I wish that I could be a high official!"

Then he became the high official, carried everywhere in his embroidered sedan chair, feared and hated by the people all around. It was a hot summer day, so the official felt very uncomfortable in the sticky sedan chair. He looked up at the sun. It shone proudly in the sky, unaffected by his presence. "How powerful the sun is!" he thought. "I wish that I could be the sun!"

Then he became the sun, shining fiercely down on everyone, scorching the fields, cursed by the farmers and laborers. But a huge black cloud moved between him and the earth, so that his light could no longer shine on everything below. "How powerful that storm cloud is!" he thought. "I wish that I could be a cloud!"

Then he became the cloud, flooding the fields and villages, shouted at by everyone. But soon he found that he was being pushed away by some great force, and realized that it was the wind. "How powerful it is!" he thought. "I wish that I could be the wind!"

Then he became the wind, blowing tiles off the roofs of houses, uprooting trees, feared and hated by all below him. But after a while, he ran up against something that would not move, no matter how forcefully he blew against it - a huge, towering rock. "How powerful that rock is!" he thought. "I wish that I could be a rock!"

Then he became the rock, more powerful than anything else on earth. But as he stood there, he heard the sound of a hammer pounding a chisel into the hard surface, and felt himself being changed. "What could be more powerful than I, the rock?" he thought.

He looked down and saw far below him the figure of a stone cutter.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

 

[The Inside Man]

Existentialism, Nihilism, Buddhism all share the same facet in that we are all going to die, time is finite, what you desire will be taken from you in one way or another. That is looking over the edge into the abyss. And what you are feeling right now. The liberation from these kinds of worldviews comes from looking over the abyss, realizing that existing in itself may not have value, and that everything you are connected to and desire will someday fall away...and taking this knowledge, stepping back from the edge, and enjoying life one day at a time knowing that each day could be your last.

 

[Obsidian]

There is something to be said for eliminating excess or unnatural desire, but certain desires are entirely natural. It doesn't make much sense to try eliminating the desire for sex, for example. I think Eastern religions go way overboard with the concept of eliminating all desire.

There are plenty of desires that should be eliminated: The desire for female approval, the desire for social approval, unrealistic desires, perverse desires, etc. But there are also good desires that should be satisfied. For example, if you are in poverty, DESIRE to improve your marketable skills so you can get some wealth. If you are single and lonely, DESIRE to improve yourself as a man. Wealth and women alone aren't going to solve your problems, but they can make you better off.

If your life circumstances are objectively reasonable, then learn to be content with what you have or improve yourself to make your surroundings better. But if your circumstances genuinely suck, don't just settle for a sort of irrational happiness. That will just lead to a shorter lifespan and an ugly society filled with poverty and misfits.

 

[Aboleo]

Existentialism, Nihilism, Buddhism all share the same facet in that we are all going to die, time is finite, what you desire will be taken from you in one way or another. That is looking over the edge into the abyss. And what you are feeling right now. The liberation from these kinds of worldviews comes from looking over the abyss, realizing that existing in itself may not have value, and that everything you are connected to and desire will someday fall away...and taking this knowledge, stepping back from the edge, and enjoying life one day at a time knowing that each day could be your last.

Very well said.

 

[Aboleo]

It doesn't make much sense to try eliminating the desire for sex, for example.

So, what... you want your entire life to revolve around getting laid? Think about it.

There are plenty of desires that should be eliminated: The desire for female approval, the desire for social approval, unrealistic desires, perverse desires, etc. But there are also good desires that should be satisfied. For example, if you are in poverty, DESIRE to improve your marketable skills so you can get some wealth. If you are single and lonely, DESIRE to improve yourself as a man. Wealth and women alone aren't going to solve your problems, but they can make you better off.

I like how you almost answer your own question there... But keep in mind, the wise man knows that it is better to sit by the banks of a remote mountian stream than to be emperor of the whole world.

Losing all hope is freedom.

But if your circumstances genuinely suck, don't just settle for a sort of irrational happiness.

Which is why we seek enlightenment or 'truth' in the first place, and why 'happiness' is as pointless as 'un-happiness'. More than love, give me truth.

 

[Ken785]

Dont anybody try to bash Buddhism...or Scientology....Will Smith was right when he said

"how can people bash other peoples beliefs when the catholics believe jesus was born from a lad who's supposedly a virgin?"

 

[Morphiex]

s thought of buddhisme as something like no effect on the world around you = spirtual happiness...

but i agree with some of their views. being happy comes from an innerpeace and to reach that peace yo ahve to let go some of your desires and feelings.

But one thing i dont like about actually all religion , is that everyones trying to get to somewhere , trying to reach heaven or nirvana, yet they disregard our world here and now. isent it possible that heaven and nirvana is here and now. Wont you feel like your in heaven if your happy and live with people who are happy. the whole idea of the Reward system is the thing that has caused too much destruction imo , look at the radical muslims christians they strive too hard to reach their heaven that they disregard all theyr fellow human beings , shun and hate based apon religion because that is what they believe will let them into heaven. sad imo... worlds greatest scam = heaven and hell...

 

[Phyzzle]

There is something to be said for eliminating excess or unnatural desire, but certain desires are entirely natural. I think Eastern religions go way overboard with the concept of eliminating all desire.

Yeah, it would be great if there were some sort of "middle way" between the two extremes.

 

[Rhoto]

would you agree that it is quite negative in term of mindset?

The argument can be made that all religions have a negative mindset.

Its the way the individual looks at the "terms" of the religion, their own life and finds the healthy balance.

Negative and Positive are all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Aboleo]

Phyzzle & Rhoto, great posts!

One of master Gasan's monks visited the university in Tokyo. When he returned, he asked the master if he had ever read the Christian Bible. "No," Gasan replied, "Please read some of it to me." The monk opened the Bible to the Sermon on the Mount in St. Matthew, and began reading. After reading Christ's words about the lilies in the field, he paused. Master Gasan was silent for a long time. "Yes," he finally said, "Whoever uttered these words is an enlightened being. What you have read to me is the essence of everything I have been trying to teach you here!"

It is always important not to take matters too literal or to make them absolute and extreame. Take the stories above as an example, the one about the two monks and the young woman... I didn't mean that you should'nt have sex, it only means that you shouldn't be obsessed... I'm gonna' tell one more story, and hopefully this will make it more logical for you to understand...

A Taoist story tells of an old man who accidentally fell into the river rapids leading to a high and dangerous waterfall. Onlookers feared for his life. Miraculously, he came out alive and unharmed downstream at the bottom of the falls. People asked him how he managed to survive. "I accommodated myself to the water, not the water to me. Without thinking, I allowed myself to be shaped by it. Plunging into the swirl, I came out with the swirl. This is how I survived."

The late Bruce Lee spoke quite extensively about the need to be fluid, and not rigid. He once said:

In primary freedom, one utilizes all ways and is bound by none, and likewise uses any techniques or means which serves one's end. Efficiency is anything that scores.
Efficiency in sparring and fighting is not a matter of correct classical, traditional form. Efficiency is anything that scores. Creating fancy forms and classical sets to replace sparring is like trying to wrap and tie a pound of water into a manageable shape of paper sack. For something that is static, fixed, dead, there can be a way or a definite path; but not for anything that is moving and living. In sparring there's no exact path or method, but instead a perceptive, pliable, choice-less awareness. It lives from moment to moment.
When in actual combat, you're not fighting a corpse. Your opponent is a living, moving object who is not in a fixed position, but fluid and alive. Deal with him realistically, not as though you're fighting a robot. Traditionally, classical form and efficiency are both equally important. I'm not saying form is not important - economy of form that is - but to me, efficiency is anything that scores. Don't indulge in any unnecessary, sophisticated moves. You'll get clobbered if you do, and in a street fight you'll have your shirt zipped off you.

This is important in how it relates to religion, and spirituality. There is a difference between the two. Take for example, what he said here:

It [the truth] is like a finger pointing a way to the moon, do not concentrate on the finger itself or you will miss all that heavenly glory!

Or here:

You put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can crash, drip, or flow... be water my friend.

Okay, I lied... one more story to furter illustrate this point...

When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice.

When the truth hits you, you just know it. It is always simple... like it says in the Bible, "a child can understand it."

Is it starting to make sense now?

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee

 

[Obsidian]

Yeah, it would be great if there were some sort of "middle way" between the two extremes.

Well, I think my criticisms in this thread probably apply more directly to Hinduism than to Buddhism. But I'm not even sure this "middle way" idea is really the way to go. On the contrary, I hate asceticism with a passion, even if the asceticism is not extreme. Sensual pleasures are an excellent thing. In my view, the only legitimate reasons to moderate sensual pleasures are
1) if the sensual pleasure involves immorality -- e.g., adultery
2) if the sensual pleasure defies wisdom or contradicts long-term goals -- e.g., drinking all night when you have to go to work the next day

Denying pleasures just to achieve "discipline" is a rather hollow path.

 

[Microphone Fiend]

Well, I think my criticisms in this thread probably apply more directly to Hinduism than to Buddhism. But I'm not even sure this "middle way" idea is really the way to go. On the contrary, I hate asceticism with a passion, even if the asceticism is not extreme. Sensual pleasures are an excellent thing. In my view, the only legitimate reasons to moderate sensual pleasures are
1) if the sensual pleasure involves immorality -- e.g., adultery
2) if the sensual pleasure defies wisdom or contradicts long-term goals -- e.g., drinking all night when you have to go to work the next day

Denying pleasures just to achieve "discipline" is a rather hollow path.

Yes, I question asceticism as well. What would you say if someone said that the idea of morality is a hollow path as well though? It helps society on the whole (as does asceticism) while the individual suffers. What do you get from it other than a false sense of superiority?

 

[Interceptor]

Buddhism is merely a system or method that teaches people who have Suffering , to find the cause for Suffering, and eventually use a Method to stop their Suffering.

We Suffer over things that we don't have basically.

If we eventually STOP Desiring, the we eventually STOP Suffering.




However, Buddhism doesn't take into consideration some people want to develop other tools to deal with their Suffering, and STILL Experience their DESIRES.

One can still be quite Enlightened and STILL Expereince one's DESIREs.

But there is an eventual end, because a lot of Experiences are Desired by our EGO.

SO we MUST eventually let go of the EGO to move further along.