BPD & Attraction. Conclusion: You're playing with a loaded deck.

[darkstarrr]

In conclusion: as bpd is described as a disease of intimacy statistically revealing that the honeymoon stage is so intense in the beginning (part of what fish hooks you in) but short-lived, and keeping in mind that attraction is not a choice - you are essentially playing with a loaded deck when interacting with these individuals in that the level of attraction you must maintain in order to keep the relationshit going is so high that it crosses the boundary of what can be deemed as being worth it.

In the end your mind will feel warped, drained, and confused as to whether or not the polarity of intense attraction in the beginning with the lack thereof in the end is your fault. Instinctually you will first look inward for the answers and blame that you are unable to initially understand by looking outward. You may be persuaded by 3rd parties who will often give advice based on standards that are inapplicable to playing with loaded decks. That the onus was on you to maintain the attraction and that you did something inherently wrong to let things slip. As crutial as that is for you to grasp going foward (as in with any relationship normal or abnormal, business or professional), the crux of the matter is that it is highly unlikely that you did anything wrong here.

You are a fücking human being, not Superman. As a human being you will encounter experiences in your life where you need a hug and a kiss on the top of your head. Where you may need a listening ear for once. If the level of attraction you must maintain to keep things afloat disallows you from having your basic needs met nor being able to express those needs, than your significant other can take their double-standards, and fück off!

I'm done. This was my closure. What a breath of fresh air. Thank you.

Over and out.

 

[decades]

keep reading. the more you learn about them, the less you will want to go anywhere near one again.

 

[Janez]

I disagree with "keep reading" advice. If you can't handle the fire, then don't play with it.

It was just a maturing experience. When you hit the rock bottom, you knew you have to do something or just give up. In the path of getting back to what you used to be before you have learned many new things about yourself and about the world you live in.

You can't blame them for being what they are. And you can't also blindly believe into everything what is written about people with personality disorders. Every person is his own personality and no-one's personality has ever been 100% described. You can't change them like you can't change anyone. They might have different value priority and different behaviour than "common" people, and they have a lot more problems living in this world because they "run" on defense mechanisms. They are not to blame.

And you are not to blame. It just happened. And blaming someone, whether it is yourself or her, won't help anyone on long way.

Very good quote from Friedrich Nietzsche that I came across today:

You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.


I believe 99% people could be find in some or another psychiatrist label.

my 2 euros ;D

 

[Luthor Rex]

I disagree with "keep reading" advice. If you can't handle the fire, then don't play with it.

"can't handle the fire" wtf? BPD is a ticking time bomb that you can't defuse.

Run fast, run far.

Don't date schizophrenics for that matter either.

 

[jophil28]

Very good quote from Friedrich Nietzsche that I came across today:

You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.

AN idiotic statement, unless he was referring to how we each hold our knife and fork, or pronounce certain words.... .

There are poor ways, better ways and excellent ways. And, dammit , many times there are just plain WRONG ways.

The quality of your particular "way" is directly measured in the results.

And that is the way life is.

 

[The_411]

Janez,

Trust me when I say that unless you've been involved with someone with BPD whether it's a girlfriend, brother, sister, mother, father etc you can't possibly understand the craziness and the insanity that ensues.

You are correct that we have no control over them but they also have to make a choice to get better.

You are correct that those who do get involved do so at their own peril.

BPD is a massive problem that people don't understand. It's estimated that it effects 17.9 million people in the U.S. alone and those figures are on the low side because many who have the disorder are not properly diagnosed or misdiagnosed.

It's a very complicated disorder and not just a label. Doctor's are still in the infantile stages in terms of comprehension of Cluster B disorders.

If anyone wants to a more you're welcome to ask me as I've read nearly all the literature on the topic.

 

[Janez]

"can't handle the fire" wtf? BPD is a ticking time bomb that you can't defuse.

Run fast, run far.

Don't date schizophrenics for that matter either.

Let me borrow your statement. You can not defuse the bomb. But you can move it to the area where it does no damage.


Thinking that BPD people are just bad is doing just what "we" accuse them to be. Splitters. They are not just good or bad. They are just human beings. They are just something in between good and bad. They have positive and negative traits, just like everyone.

Why not take the good from them and avoid the bad? Why not simply have enough self control and self understanding to know when to bail, when to leave. Why not simply "fix" ourselves and our obsession with them that caused us pain? We can not control another human being, whether it is BPD or "common, sane person".

We should ask ourselves "what good does this brings to us", or "what we gain from it", and avoid the pain co-related with our loss of self-control because of the obsession we grow to them.


------

AN idiotic statement, unless he was referring to how we each hold our knife and fork, or pronounce certain words.... .

There are poor ways, better ways and excellent ways. And, dammit , many times there are just plain WRONG ways.

The quality of your particular "way" is directly measured in the results.

And that is the way life is.

And the ultimate result is living a happy, fullfilled life. The result is not the beauty of the woman we involve or have children with. The result is not the money we make - it is too obvious that the greed for some people never ends.

The result is living a happy life. Different people, different ways. And as there is billions of people in the world, there is billions of ways that people live life. Some are happier than others, some are more bitter than others. But that does not mean that a one's way to happiness would work for another to be happy as well.


-----

Janez,

Trust me when I say that unless you've been involved with someone with BPD whether it's a girlfriend, brother, sister, mother, father etc you can't possibly understand the craziness and the insanity that ensues.

You are correct that we have no control over them but they also have to make a choice to get better.

You are correct that those who do get involved do so at their own peril.

BPD is a massive problem that people don't understand. It's estimated that it effects 17.9 million people in the U.S. alone and those figures are on the low side because many who have the disorder are not properly diagnosed or misdiagnosed.

It's a very complicated disorder and not just a label. Doctor's are still in the infantile stages in terms of comprehension of Cluster B disorders.

If anyone wants to a more you're welcome to ask me as I've read nearly all the literature on the topic.

I have been involved with (diagnosed by myself) BPD person for 5 years. I have been struggling on the rock bottom for 2 years and fortunately I found texts, articles, and help about dealing with BPD. Fortunately I got myself professional help as help on the forums. And you could trust me on this then, that people on the forum are just too angry and hurt to give fool-proof advice to how to deal with people with this disorder. Professional help is the only way to go and even ther you must be lucky to find good psychiatrist, as some are full of sh*t and only looking for own benefit again.

BPD indeed is a massive problem. And people indeed do not understand it. I simply believe that current mentality on this and other forums about dealing with BPD is also so damn wrong. Current mentality, even on the bpdfamily forum, which is supposed to give good help, is pretty much "let's blame everything on them and get better without them with no contact strategy". And, imo, this is wrong. Just avoiding them will not give us answers to "WHY" we have fallen for them and why have we suffered so much. It also does not help us to respect them for what they are and understand them. And if you can not respect a person that you have been involved many years with (and loved them), you probably don't respect yourself and forgive yourself to "fall" for them.


This disorder is very complicated, but it indeed is just a label. Someone with BPD that cuts herself is different person as someone who meets other 8 (or 5 or 6 or 7) criterias for being a BPD. What we do here and on other forums is 1.: unprofessionally diagnose people we are involved with to be BPD. 2.: put them all into same bag. Very wrong.

I have read a lot of literature about BPD and about psychology, psychiatricy, I have read a lot of literature how brain is supposed to work, etc. etc. And what I could believe it that there is a lot of sh*t in the literature as well and that literature by itself just gives you logical fundament to base and place own experience on something.

Yesterday I read about documentary movie made by BBC. They put 5 healthy and 5 people with different mental issues that were treated for them into Big brother like room for a week. They were Obsessive compulsive disorder, depression, bi-polar, eating-related disorder patients.. Psychiatrists and psychologist then diagnosed these people. They could not talk with them, they could just watch their behaviour through camera.
It was said that only 2 people, the compulsive, and eating-related disorder were generally diagnosed properly. (a note: i read about that and not actually watch it.)



PS: Don't forget that I am not proving here anyone anything. I just express my opinion which can be wrong on some level and definitely it is right on some level. Just like everyone's else when they are honest.

Best regards

 

[Janez]

Yes, Danger, even at time of writing I had this in my mind.

What I wanted to say but didn't find correct way to express is, that it does not take much more energy to change a BPD compared to changing a "common, normal" person.

I believe that if you don't "click", it is just a waste of energy to try to change someone. You might have some success, but in their subconsiusness they are quite the same person as they were at age of 7 (and this goes to whole population not just disordered people).

Even changing ourselves to be a better, happier people, takes a lot of energy. Especially when you do something with good intentions but the results are actually worse compared to state when there was no trying.

 

[Blue Phoenix]

Guys read the book "Emotional vampires" and check on the net "personality disorders", they will be you bible against such demons. Beware!! you might be one of them!

 

[KontrollerX]

"BPD indeed is a massive problem. And people indeed do not understand it. I simply believe that current mentality on this and other forums about dealing with BPD is also so damn wrong. Current mentality, even on the bpdfamily forum, which is supposed to give good help, is pretty much "let's blame everything on them and get better without them with no contact strategy". And, imo, this is wrong. Just avoiding them will not give us answers to "WHY" we have fallen for them and why have we suffered so much."

The only thing the BPDfamily forum is good for is the venting process which is also known as processing so your mind can gradually become at peace or as neutral/settled what have you with the emotional rape that you went through as possible and thereby recover from the PTSD after effects.

Other than that Skip's forums are an absolute joke.

They have a forum there specifically made for people who have decided to stay with their BPD abuser.

Now don't get me wrong I'm all for freedom of speech and everything but this kind of discussion should be saved for a general board on that site by an individual member who may bring up the subject and then subsequently be talked out of it by wiser posters.

Skip's idea to have a dedicated staying forum is like someone putting up a forum about dedicated torture or dedicated suicide bombing.

In other words all of these things should not be encouraged and by putting up a dedicated staying with BPD board what he has done over there is completely irresponsible.

Anyway though I am with you Janez.

There can be no true recovery from these people until a person looks within themselves and finds out what made the Cluster B such a huge power in one's life.

I disagree with you in that I think this forum has done that.

I agree with you in that I think Skip's BPD family forum has not done that.

I also say that both things are important in either order for recovery and what I mean is its both correct and healthy to blame these people and then look for your own responsibility in the victim dance.

Even still though someone could make a valid argument that a victim of one of these people has no more responsibility being a victim than someone that is mugged at gunpoint for being put in that situation.

Society wants things both ways in that society encourages people to trust and love others and then someone mistakenly trusts and loves a Cluster B unawares of what they are and then gets severely burned as a result.

Who then is to blame?

The society that encourages trust and love or the person who had their trust and love betrayed just doing what society told them to do or the Cluster B psychopath who is not sick to the point that they do not know the bad deeds that they are doing?

Its a tricky question to answer as the blame can be passed around and a valid argument can be made for blame being placed on any one of these things so maybe its better to not focus on where the blame lies but rather what helps an individual Cluster B victim best recover.

"It also does not help us to respect them for what they are and understand them. And if you can not respect a person that you have been involved many years with (and loved them), you probably don't respect yourself and forgive yourself to "fall" for them."

Problem is they are just walking talking masks.

There is nothing real inside to respect or love.

This is not my insulting them or being callous this is what I have found to be true through much study and it is what horrified me for a long time.

In anycase you don't need to forgive an empty mask to forgive yourself for falling for a lie.

Instead recognize the lie, the empty shell of a human being that you were with for what it was and the self forgiveness should come immediately and if not immediately at least gradually.

 

[jophil28]

That is exactly right.

BPD women are so skilled at presentation that a guy dating one will NEVER know who and what he is dealing with until the hook is well and truly set.

 

[Aenigma]

Problem is they are just walking talking masks.

There is nothing real inside to respect or love.

This is not my insulting them or being callous this is what I have found to be true through much study and it is what horrified me for a long time.

In anycase you don't need to forgive an empty mask to forgive yourself for falling for a lie.

Instead recognize the lie, the empty shell of a human being that you were with for what it was and the self forgiveness should come immediately and if not immediately at least gradually.

What do you look for to identify such a "mask". What's the best way to know that a woman is one of these types aside from living through their crazy manipulations......

I need to know... I'm still blaming myself for the divorce/breakup and I need to know if everything was a lie so I can finally go cold contact and forget the whole thing.

 

[jophil28]

What do you look for to identify such a "mask". What's the best way to know that a woman is one of these types aside from living through their crazy manipulations......

I need to know... I'm still blaming myself for the divorce/breakup and I need to know if everything was a lie so I can finally go cold contact and forget the whole thing.

These women are consumate actresses. THey are skilled deceivers and con artists who present as " the one" . They are brilliant at sensing what you want in a woman and then they become that woman...for a while.
IN the first month or two, her true self is undetectable by the trusting and the unwary because she is "acting" to snare you.

When she has set her hook (it is always the sex hook) her behavior will start to switch and change. She may cancel a date, snap at you for no good reason, withhold sex, criticize your friends, demand that you not see other women, she may start playing mindgames by flirting with other guys.... you will start to see a bewildering callousness which is the antithesis of her behavior to date..

The biggest clue of all is her history. These women are so addicted to drama and turmoil that they will actually tell you about their past, event by event, often by volunteering tales of appalling lies and cheating. Of course. she will re-frame history to remove any wrongdoing by her .. she was a helpless victim. This is her world that you are hearing about and you are about to be drawn it. .However , her stories are so extreme, that your belief is tested. IT all sounds so surreal.

IF you hear tales of cheating father, alcoholic parents, abusive parents or several divorces in her original family, then sound the alarms .

ASk her about her own relationships with men . What you hear is how she will act with you.
BPDs always have dramatic, destructive, low quality past relationships which include components of the depravity that men and women can inflict on each other.

 

[Bible_Belt]

If anyone wants ...more you're welcome to ask me as I've read nearly all the literature on the topic.

Same here, me too. There is a good thread that got closed and put in the archive. They said the bpd discussion had "run its course," but I don't think that will ever happen.

Not that I would know, but I am guessing that being with a bpd girl is like shooting heroin. It's the best feeling in the world when you're high and the worst feeling in the world crashing afterward. You can cope with living that way for a while, some people longer than others, but it gets everyone in the end.

bpd women are the seductresses of all time. I think many of the famous female figures of ancient history. Cleopatra probably was bpd. In the Old Testament, looking at the Bible as a historical text, I think the 'Delilah' of Sampson and Delilah and also Bathsheba, the married woman King David knocked up were both bpd. Whenever you see a man make drastic and foolish sacrifices for the sake of a woman, it is likely that she is bpd - they are the ones who have that much power over men.

 

[Blue Phoenix]

bpd women are the seductresses of all time. I think many of the famous female figures of ancient history. Cleopatra probably was bpd. In the Old Testament, looking at the Bible as a historical text, I think the 'Delilah' of Sampson and Delilah and also Bathsheba, the married woman King David knocked up were both bpd. Whenever you see a man make drastic and foolish sacrifices for the sake of a woman, it is likely that she is bpd - they are the ones who have that much power over men.

Yeah, I´ve been thinking the same here. I´ve read the book about seduction by Robert Greene and we don´t really know if what Cleopatra, Bathsheba did (hot/cold, manipulation, whatever) was a conscious effort, or "instintive madness" on their part (which end up working anyway). Greene focus on the method and the impact of the seducers, but he doesn´t mention how is their mental state. That´s ok, since the focus is not their disorder (if any) but the "tricks" that work.

Funnily enough, most seductive people have some kind of disorder: BPD (?), Narcisism (charmer), Histrionic personality (coquette), the nice guy (anti-seducer). No wonder men and women are attracted to them, and suffer a lot afterwards. As David D said, we have to emulate the good things from the bad boys so we can be as good as they are without the emotional abuse.

Mystery seems to have a lot of success with girls, but anyone who have read The Game knows that Mystery lives only to chase girls. Well, I don´t think this is bad, he´s making money, laying girls, but let´s see how far that will go.

And as you read about Mystery’s low points (and believe me, things get pretty low), it can be easy to doubt the validity of what he teaches. But as the book goes on and you begin to see the picture Style paints of a truly passionate man who comes from a poor home with an abusive father, you realize that it’s these extremes he endures that make him so brilliant. Sure, he has a massive breakdown and has to be institutionalized for his own safety, but he’s also someone who latches onto crazy ideas and molds them into reality. In the case of Mystery, we see a man who can generate incredible attraction in women almost instantly, but can’t hold onto a girl to save his life.

*http://www.thundercatseductionlair.com/2005/09/07/book-review-the-game-by-neil-strauss/

 

[wait_out]

I wonder if your average frustrated chick will start emulating psycho BPD women in order to snag the unwary guys out there.

The guidebook probably exists already right?

Behind the hyperbole KX is on the money, staying with BPDs is more likely to enable their behavior rather than help them. It goes for blood family too. If they're altruistic people who simply can't control their emotional reactions, they're going to feel incredible guilt over their partner's self-sacrificing behavior -- which will make them more anxious, which they'll regulate by exploding at the people who care about them. Stupid eh? If you want to live that way it's a free country... opinions differ.

If you're building a false front to make up for a inner sense of worthlessness, you're expending incredible effort and you risk discovery. Hence the BPD lies, anger, and paranoia when things get serious. They can't believe that rationally anyone would honestly accept them for who they are. I'm sure that could apply equally to PUA guys for who it's become a compulsion and a definition of self.

There has to be something behind the mask or you're hosed, but it's the pure belief there's nothing underneath that really unhinges BPDs. My ex-GF sabotaged herself once by making our relationship untenable, she likely did it a second time by tearing her self-esteem apart when I dropped her, and she is going to miserable until she finds another guy to repeat the cycle with or until she ultimately gets therapy.

Outside our relationship she was actually one of the more inspiring, empathetic, sincere, high-achieving, and likeable women I'd ever met -- but it all means nothing when the BPD gets the upper hand. Who is she really? She's both. Was it that sense of worthlessness that drove her to try to act better than others? No matter how much I like her in principle or liked being together for most of the time, I'd rather not be on the losing end, and with a BPD girl you always will be. More so if you really care about her. I certainly NEVER helped her even when I thought I was doing so. It's their battle, and you have no stake in it, except as collateral damage. Even if you like them you ought to get out so they have less crippling guilt about what they did to your life -- drinking, drugs, fatal car accidents, etc.

There's a certain romanticism in mutual self-destruction with a BPD but I will leave that for the committed artists and musicians.

I can't imagine a relationship with a BPD girl with a truly evil heart behind the illness. I got off very lightly, and it was still awful. Good people or bad, all you can truly do is disengage. There's more than one girl in the world.

 

[BillyT]

Hey everybody,
I was referred here a few weeks ago by a guy on another forum. Been readinh this forum and the DJ bible and decided to finally post. I am here because of my BPD ex. She introduced me to rock bottom and I am trying like hell to recover.

I am 34 and was your typical popular but just in a friends way high school guy. I had moderate success in college, and then afterwards managed to hook up enough. I have had 3 serious girlfriends and a lot of one night stands and friends with benefits. No hero of pick up but I manage to take care of things.

This all started when I hooked up with my girl a little over 2 years ago. We started dating and I thought I had finally met the woman of my dreams. Until her I had planned on being single forever. Once we got together I started thinking about white picket fences and kids. I was in over my head and head over heels. She was at once the perfect lady and the perfect *****. She could cook, she was a great homemaker type, she could hold an interesting conversation, and she laid me like no one before. She was the woman of my dreams.

Fast forward a while and she starts the push/pull act with me. Once she had me hooked she would talk about breaking up and then beg me to to never leave her. She was insanely jealous and always wanted to know where I was. I gave in to all her demands and did everything I could to keep her and try and keep her happy. In the archives there is a 16 page post on BPD chicks, and it is ad if I am reading about my relationship. The only difference is she would not rage, she would just cut me out. She would stop talking to me and pretend I didn't exist.

I had this girl at work who was like a little sister. She was very Christian and a virgin we used to talk. I was like her big brother and used to advise her on her dates. Anyway, one day this girl got locked out and called me 5 times to come let her in. I was away from my phone and didn't get the calls. I never thought of cleaning my call files in my cell because I never did anything wrong. My ex went through my phone and saw these calls. She accused me of cheating and absolutely refused to believe it was innocent. She didn't rage, but she spent 3 days not talking to me and pretending I didn't exist. We were in the same house. It was worse than rage, it was killing me. I hate to admit it but I broke down and cried, she relented and we reconciled.

To cut an epic short, I found out that my perfect woman was cheating on me. For a long period of time. The only reason she didn't leave me is because she was able to have my support and bang this guy behind my back. I have never been so devastated in my life. It was like my world was ending. I put up with so much from her all to have it thrown in my face by infidelity. I am glazing over a lot but if you have read the BPD discussions, you have read my relationship. Basically I have regressed 10 years in my development. I can't even look at women and I have become rather anti-social. It killed my sense of self esteem and wrecked my self worth. I am working on recovering though. I am in the gym 6 days a week. Funny how that seems to be a common response from all the guys who have been through it. Once the worst is over they seem to set out on a hard core recovery/remake. Which is what I am doing. I guess hitting rock bottom requires that you either kill yourself or remake yourself into the best you can be. I choose to remake myself.

So anyway, thanks to all of you for your powerful insight and wisdom. It is helping me along my road to recovery. KontrollerX, I have noticed you seem to have a lot of insight into this. Any resources where one can find out what it is about ourselves that makes us vulnerable or seek out this type of woman? I am sure I have some issues to sort out, otherwise I would have dumped her way before she was able to make so many inroads into my psyche. Thanks.

 

[Blue Phoenix]

The truth is:

The point is:

There are people who cannot tolerate a person who sees them in positive light. They seek out partners who will confirm their negative images of themselves. In other words, your emotional relationship you have with YOURSELF is the central pivot around which an intimate relationship with someone else will turn, be it good or bad - Judith Sills

 

[jophil28]

Any resources where one can find out what it is about ourselves that makes us vulnerable or seek out this type of woman? I am sure I have some issues to sort out, otherwise I would have dumped her way before she was able to make so many inroads into my psyche. Thanks.

Be very careful taking this road. There is a lot of crap psych written by third rate "therapists" who seek to sell pulp books by making obscure and unsubstantiated claims that we "attract certain types into our life..". Most of this is nonsense. The quote in the post above is a good example of the gobbledy gook that poses as 'self help' wisdom..

No reasonable man is attracted to a BPD woman who behaves like the nut job that she really is. That is why she acts so differently when you first meet her - uber feminine, passive, compliant, always eager to be there for you ...sexy and sweeter that honey.
We are attracted to their initial "performance" ,that is why they do it ..it works for them.

These women are highly skilled at NOT acting like their darker BPD side. They hold up a facade- a fake personality which they create and design to hook and deceive their targets.

Then, when the hook is set (six to eight weeks later ) and you are emotionally attached, she starts to reveal her true self and the game begins in earnest.

That gorgeous Angel of light has now slowly morphed into Satan's daughter as her compulsion to endlessly mindfvck you drives her actions..

IF you do have some desire to be introspective, consider why you stayed around when she revealed her cruelty and she deliberately subjected you to callous and atrocious behavior.

Ultimately, you (and all of us who have been there ) were not responsible for being duped by an accomplished psychological and emotional trickster, but you are responsible for staying and tolerating her psych terrorism.

 

[BillyT]

IF you do have some desire to be introspective, consider why you stayed around when she revealed her cruelty and she deliberately subjected you to callous and atrocious behavior.

Ultimately, you (and all of us who have been there ) were not responsible for being duped by an accomplished psychological and emotional trickster, but you are responsible for staying and tolerating her psych terrorism.

Thanks. This forum had helped me with the answer to why I stayed. At the time and in the midst of my delusion, I thought that if I was good enough I could get the old her back. If I just treated her well enough, my girlfriend would come back and this impostor would go away. Now I understand that the woman I loved was the illusion and the other was the real. Like I said, the 16 pages in the archives set me straight on a lot and actually did more for my well being than anything else I have read. After reading here I was actually able to let her go, where as before she was constantly in my head even though it had been 5 months.