Boundary crew needed...

[Die Hard]

Suppose you agree to be exclusive with a woman, then you should set some boundaries. One boundary most of us agree on, is not having "guy friends" with whom she meets up.

So how do you approach this? Coz when you tell her you find it unacceptable, she will surely ask "Why?" and start explaining that it's innocent, that she doesn't feel attracted to him blah bah blah. And eventually, she will often say: "So what's the big deal? DON'T YOU TRUST ME???"

In essence, that's the truth. You don't want her to hang out with guy friends coz you believe there might be going on a lot more than them just drinking coffee and having conversation. So you don't trust her... But you can't explicitly tell her that (or can you?)

How do you guys approach this situation? I assume none of you honestly tell her why you don't want her to hang out with guy friends, coz it makes you appear insecure (if someone here does honestly express this, please share with us how you make that work).
I assume most of you try to circumvent this by reverting to the "what if I hung out with girl friends, would you find that acceptable?" comparison, right?

Okay, now what if she responds with: "Nope, I wouldn't mind you hanging out with girl friends, I trust you! So why don't you trust me?" How do you respond to that? Again, you can honestly tell her "No, I don't trust you..." but like I said, that would make you seem insecure and she would just tell you you need to work on your trust issues blah blah, make it seem like YOU have a problem and she doesn't want to be with someone like that blah blah blah, shaming you etc.

So instead of telling her you don't trust her, what do you say?! You already tried the "how would you like it if I hung out with girl friends?" comparison and she parried that by saying she doesn't mind. So then what are you gonna say? You can't expect her to respect your boundary and give up her guy friends when you can't even give a good reason for your boundary. So what will your explanation be?

 

[In2theGame]

My experience with this has taught me that you need to set her straight right from the get go. My very first serious LTR had some guy friends and I thought.... hey i dont want to act jealous or anything so i thought it was cool and after all, Its just her friends. Turned out, When we went through a rough patch, she bailed to go date her male "friend". I didnt know any better back then and she came back to me, i gave her another chance. Once again, She had a male friend that was always calling her. This time i expressed my disapproval and she shamed me saying "He's just a friend, I can have friends with anyone i want and you should trust me" I dealt with it. Fast forward few months and she left to be with that other guy friend. I gave her a THIRD! chance and finally after everything... i sent her packing since she drove me insane with stress.

Many months after, I met my second very serious LTR. At the start, I told her i will not put up with guy friends and if she wanted that, It was fine but i was not going to stick around for that whatsoever. I was very fvcking serious about it. One night we were laying on her bed and her phone rang. She looked at me and she said "Its my friend Jonathan", I grabbed my jeans and started putting them on and getting ready to leave her house. She looked at me asking in a panic "What are you doing!?!" I said, "I was very fvcking serious when i said i dont want to deal with guy "friends" calling you". I was ready to go... She threw herself on the floor on her knees, literally, and begged me to stay and that she wont talk to them and delete them all. I simply said "Dont do it if you dont want to, I'll just leave and we're done with" She went nuts. I stayed and from that point, she never even thought about crossing me. After some years though, i became the AFC without realizing it and letting her do whatever. At the end, she left me for a guy she knew. Some of you remember my story and how destructive it was.

Point is, You as a Man, Should not deal with ANY of that bullsh*t. You will have females trying to shame you and tell you that your insecure, Controlling, Abusive but believe me, They are talking out their azz. You let Women know what exactly your going to tolerate and if that line gets crossed, Your out. This new age bullsh*t about being equal and fair is all garbage and your Women should respect you enough to not even think about hanging out with another guy. It wont be long before everyone is telling you its OK for your Girlfriend/Wife to cuckold you. You are the Man and you set the rules. Period. More and more Men are being shamed into accepting this type of behavior. What it really is IMO is your allowing your Girlfriend/Wife to "explore" whats out there innocently without disrupting the relationship. If she's going for Coffee or a Drink with a male friend, You have no idea if he some how is going to spark an interest in her emotionally. That wasnt planned but it happened. Just like the saying goes with Females....."I dont know it just happened" . Even if your girl feels innocent about it, The male "friend" may have a different motive and try to gain her interest up somehow especially if she is very attractive. If you begin to become complacent in the relationship, that male "friend" will be right there to attempt to scoop her away. I know plenty of cases where that male friend ended up banging her behind the husband/boyfriend's back. It's just a bad way to go IMO.

 

[Desdinova]

The one thing I keep hearing women say about having guy friends, "There's less drama with guy friends." That's complete bull5hit. When a woman has guy friends, it will wreak havoc with any LTR she decides to get involved in, thus producing more drama.

 

[zekko]

I agree with In2TheGame that this is best done at the beginning when she tries to make you exclusive. I also like Social Leper's response here below. Don't get upset over it, just be clear that this is something you are not willing to put up with in your life. I think I said something like "I will never have a girlfriend that hangs out with male friends". As far as explanation goes, I took a page from my ex-wife who thought that "Opposite sex friends can cause trouble". I also brought up that usually in any opposite sex friendship one of the persons has feelings, or is wanting the sex. I don't think it requires a very deep explanation, because it's just a matter of personal choice, like maybe you won't date blondes or something lol.

I'm quite casual in my response, making it clear that it's just not a complication I want to put up with. For me it's about personal preference and simplifying my life. It has nothing to do with trust.

Right, this whole paragraph is very good, couldn't agree more.

So how do you approach this? Coz when you tell her you find it unacceptable, she will surely ask "Why?" and start explaining that it's innocent, that she doesn't feel attracted to him blah bah blah. And eventually, she will often say: "So what's the big deal? DON'T YOU TRUST ME???"

Honestly, if she puts this much of a fight up about it, things may not work out. I refuse to enter into an argument about it, no reason for her to act like a b!tch over it. I would take that as a red flag.

I assume most of you try to circumvent this by reverting to the "what if I hung out with girl friends, would you find that acceptable?" comparison, right?

Okay, now what if she responds with: "Nope, I wouldn't mind you hanging out with girl friends, I trust you! So why don't you trust me?" How do you respond to that?

This is actually the way I would expect such a conversation to go down, so I wouldn't approach it that way. Some say don't say anything, just start seeing female friends, and she will object to it herself. But I see two things wrong with that:
1) She may react in the exact same way "I trust you, why don't you trust me?". And
2) I have no desire to spend my valuable time hanging out with female friends that I don't really want to be hanging out with, and if I do hang out with them I'm probably going to be banging them. But then I wouldn't be hanging out with them as friends, would I?

When I was younger, I used to have some female friends. Some of them I actually had a crush on. The ones I weren't attracted to, I later found out that they had crushes on me. So I don't really believe in the opposite sex friend thing.

 

[zekko]

Don't TELL her anything.....just start hanging out ALOT with girl friends, one on one.

Let her start the conversation.

Unless she doesn't...

Let me say one more thing about if she fights the idea strongly. Like I said, that's a bad sign. The idea is not to force her into doing something she doesn't want to do, the idea is to find someone who is willing to see things the way you do, to find someone who is compatible with you. It's okay if she fights the line a little bit, as long as she is able to come to the conclusion that your point of view on the subject is actually correct.

This is one advantage of being older, women will respect your experience and wisdom on a variety of subjects. Well, good women will, anyway.

 

[Knight's Cross]

This one's easy:
I tell new women that I'm in a relationship with that I don't tolerate guys from her past sticking around, and neither should she tolerate women from my past sticking around. You should see as things develop that she shuts her orbiters down, and she should see that you are shutting down yours.
Here's the rub with the whole BS line that she'd be cool with you seeing women you know. She knows that these women fall into 2 camps:
a) they are women that you didn't have a high enough attraction to make a LTR
b) they are women that you are an orbiter of
In all likelihood she is safe. You on the other hand are at risk. Guys that are hanging around her want to smash it. The opportunity comes and there it is. She's can play the, "it just happened" card. All of course your fault because you and her got in an argument....

Everytime that I told a woman up front my expectations it turned out just fine. Everytime I put up with previous male orbiters I was in for a rocky road.

KC

 

[RangerMIke]

You set boundries by not saying a freaking word. When your girl hangs out with dudes, you hang out with women. Let her know though your actions if she does stuff you don't like you will walk away. If she does it anyway, guess what... she's not worth keeping.

I would highly discourage any wussy-like discussion of boundries... this would turn her off like a light switch.

Once my girl friend suggested that she might go visit her friend, who used to be her lover overseas. I told her fine.... I'll just call Laurel (my GF before we dated) and she can keep me company while your gone. She got the message and put such nonsence out of her head.

 

[In2theGame]

You set boundries by not saying a freaking word. When your girl hangs out with dudes, you hang out with women. Let her know though your actions if she does stuff you don't like you will walk away. If she does it anyway, guess what... she's not worth keeping.

I would highly discourage any wussy-like discussion of boundries... this would turn her off like a light switch.

Once my girl friend suggested that she might go visit her friend, who used to be her lover overseas. I told her fine.... I'll just call Laurel (my GF before we dated) and she can keep me company while your gone. She got the message and put such nonsence out of her head.

Why go through that though? It's like a game of "if you hang out with your guy friend, I will go and hang out with my female friend" That's a feminine game IMO. A Man puts a fvcking STOP to it right when she suggest such a thing. More like "Your going to go hang out with your Guy friend's, Ok thats fine. Dont bother coming back though". She wont have to read between the lines because i will put it right in front of her face to see and understand clearly. You set that sh*t straight right then and there. She will maybe throw a tantrum and call you "unfair and controlling" however she has the option of going and your not holding her back, She decides the fate of getting tossed to the side or not. Women want their cake's and to eat it also. Like Eve, God gave her and Adam everything however she needed to eat the apple too from the serpent.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

The idea is not to force her into doing something she doesn't want to do, the idea is to find someone who is willing to see things the way you do, to find someone who is compatible with you. It's okay if she fights the line a little bit, as long as she is able to come to the conclusion that your point of view on the subject is actually correct.

This is crucial. You have to NOT get her thinking you're trying to "force her behavior to fit your expectations."

She's got to know the kind of girl you're willing to commit to BEFORE any kind of commitment thoughts pop into her head.

IDEALLY, you should know your boundaries EARLY on, and drop subtle hints on the first or second date. The way you communicate, the way you walk, act, even talk should give off the "vibe" of your boundaries.

Like if you're on your first or second date, out in public, and you see a girl with plenty of guys, just causally mention something like:

"Wow, I could never be in a relationship with a girl who hangs out with guy friends. I've had too many problems with stuff like that in the past. Never again."

The idea is that whenever possible, you need to get her to QUALIFY HERSELF to you, ON HER OWN, based on the signals she's picked up from on what's acceptable and not acceptable.

If you plant enough seeds early on, you shouldn't have any problems.

The idea she should ALWAYS keep in the forefront of her mind, about YOU is this:

"He likes a certain type of girl. If I STOP being that type of girl, it's over."

Of course, this is hard as fvck to enforce, as minor infractions are easy to overlook when the pvssy is flowing, but the good life ain't easy.

 

[dasein]

Personally, I don't mind real guy friends at all. But they will be real friends and friends of the relationship. They are easy to spot. They will often be married or in a relationship, friends from HS or college, more than drinking and party buddies. They will be involved in her actual day to day life on some level other than work, and she in theirs. She may keep his pets, get mail on vacation, or he hers. They will never be exes, orbiters, party buddies, FWBs, work friends that are actually orbiters, lopsided deals with the guy "doing for" her yet somehow she never "does for" him, etc.

So, you delineate things like that at the start when she wants exclusivity into A, real friends, and B, the rest. The rest have to go or "Hey, let's just keep having the good times we've been having. You can hang out with whomever you like then. Exclusivity carries restrictions and responsibilities with it."

 

[RangerMIke]

Why go through that though? It's like a game of "if you hang out with your guy friend, I will go and hang out with my female friend" That's a feminine game IMO. A Man puts a fvcking STOP to it right when she suggest such a thing. More like "Your going to go hang out with your Guy friend's, Ok thats fine. Dont bother coming back though". She wont have to read between the lines because i will put it right in front of her face to see and understand clearly. You set that sh*t straight right then and there. She will maybe throw a tantrum and call you "unfair and controlling" however she has the option of going and your not holding her back, She decides the fate of getting tossed to the side or not. Women want their cake's and to eat it also. Like Eve, God gave her and Adam everything however she needed to eat the apple too from the serpent.

It's not a 'game' my friend. I don't make idol threats... I make promises. If she headed off to Europe to visit her friend I would have started seeing other women. That's the point. She's planning to do something I don't want her to do. If I try and stop her by talking her out of it, I'm a controlling bast***. You can not control a woman. If she wants to go off and do whatever she wants... you have to let her go. But she also has to know that her actions have consequences. She can run off with her friend, she just has to know that when she comes back.... you might not be there. Then let her make her choice... if she goes anyway, after you've made it clear by your actions that you don't want.... than is she the right woman for you?

 

[zekko]

Why go through that though? It's like a game of "if you hang out with your guy friend, I will go and hang out with my female friend" That's a feminine game IMO. A Man puts a fvcking STOP to it right when she suggest such a thing. More like "Your going to go hang out with your Guy friend's, Ok thats fine. Dont bother coming back though".

I'm definitely with In2TheGame on this one. I'm not interested in getting into some stupid game of one-upmanship, and CERTAINLY not with a chick I would consider for an LTR. Why go out and hang out with some ex or "female friend" that I'm not really interested in hanging out with, just to play some stupid game? I like your response better "Go ahead, but don't bother coming back". That way I can go out and find or hang out with a chick I REALLY want to hang out with.

As for being called "controlling", lol, that would just about make my day. First off, my current girlfriend would tell you I am anything but controlling. And secondly, what do I care what some soon to be ex calls me? Because if she starts hanging out with dudes that is what she will be. Sticks and stones and all that, who gives a sh!t what some dumb b!tch calls you?

 

[Atom Smasher]

I've always done very well with a direct, "Just as we men are prone to physical attachments, women are very prone to emotional attachments."

This hits them where they live because they innately know this to be true (though they won't verbally admit it). They intuit it.

Finally I give them the "both of us protecting our relationship" spiel. Mission accomplished.

It is indeed critically important to take care of this business very early on. With a girl who is compatible with you, your value in her eyes will skyrocket because she sees you as a take-charge, no-BS man. Like I said in another post, I've had several girlfriend tell me completely out of the blue that they love the way I've set guidelines for us. They never use the word, "rules" but they like "guidelines". They know damn well that these are my rules and that breaking them will have serious consequences. But they respect that.

 

[Colossus]

I've always done very well with a direct, "Just as we men are prone to physical attachments, women are very prone to emotional attachments."

This hits them where they live because they innately know this to be true (though they won't verbally admit it). They intuit it.

Finally I give them the "both of us protecting our relationship" spiel. Mission accomplished.

It is indeed critically important to take care of this business very early on. With a girl who is compatible with you, your value in her eyes will skyrocket because she sees you as a take-charge, no-BS man. Like I said in another post, I've had several girlfriend tell me completely out of the blue that they love the way I've set guidelines for us. They never use the word, "rules" but they like "guidelines". They know damn well that these are my rules and that breaking them will have serious consequences. But they respect that.

^Agree.

The only thing I disagree with on this issue is making too many hard rules. This essentially conveys a lack of confidence in your frame and your ability to generate new options. Absolutely set some boundaries, but I find a longer leash is better if you are a high value male.

I do pretty much the same as Atom. I tell them if we are exclusive I am not going to invite any women in my life who could jeopardize our relationship, and I expect the same out of them. When it comes to male friends, I generally expect that no one-on-one time will be had with them, and if I get a whiff that they are entertaining men who are interested in them, I'm simply going to leave. Been there done that, don't have time for that sh!t.

I think you have to take your own past, the girl you are seeing, and the nature of the relationship into account. And most importantly, you have to be willing to walk away and not look back when you are qualifying women.

A few examples:

In my most horrid LTR, I allowed the girl to continue being close friends with her ex-bf from college. To be fair, she told me from the very beginning, but it ended up causing huge problems. Mostly because I felt disrespected. In retrospect I should have just said thanks but no thanks when that was disclosed, but I didnt know any better.

A girl I dated a couple years ago, then 35, had a HUGE social circle. She had many, many guy friends. We weren't officially exclusive, so I didn't care. No boundaries were made; she could do whatever the hell she wanted. And so could I. And I did, which is how I met my now-fiance.

With Mrs. Colossus, she has essentially no exes, doesn't drink, and was a virgin when I met her. So boundaries with her don't need to be iron electrified barbed wire fences. I just expect her not to spend one-on-one time with other men (with some obvious exceptions), and not to go out to meat market environments like bars and clubs; and if she does it's on a case-by-case basis. She doesn't drink or have party friends, so that's effectively a non-issue.

I never say "you cant have male friends", and she understands context. One of my best friends is a female, and they get along splendidly. She actually flew her out here to surprise me on my birthday. Part of this is that she is a mentally healthy girl, but part of it also is that I don't make all these restrictive rules that would make our lives awkward.

 

[Die Hard]

Thanks for replying, guys! Lots of wisdom here, much appreciated

 

[guru1000]

My preference is to eliminate contenders whose conditioned predilections are consistent orbiters/male friends. Notwithstanding, I have successfully used the following boundary in prior exclusive relations:

You: Respect is paramount. You must always respect me and not contribute to others’ disrespect of me. The same applies to my respect of you. <Here is your general umbrella boundary covering most subsequent offenses unrelated to the topic at hand>

Contender: OK, but what does that have to do with male friends?

You: Men and women cannot have a bona fide friendship. In any male/female friendship, one party will desire the other. So … if you have male friends to whom you are not sexually interested in, then, the friendship exists only because these men are interesting in f*cking you (<==Use vulgarity to incite emotion). And your continued communications with men who want to f*ck you--while in exclusive relations with me—is disrespectful to, and contributing to others' disrespect of, me.

That’s it. If she continues to entertain male friends following this boundary, dump her.

 

[RangerMIke]

I'm definitely with In2TheGame on this one. I'm not interested in getting into some stupid game of one-upmanship, and CERTAINLY not with a chick I would consider for an LTR. Why go out and hang out with some ex or "female friend" that I'm not really interested in hanging out with, just to play some stupid game? I like your response better "Go ahead, but don't bother coming back". That way I can go out and find or hang out with a chick I REALLY want to hang out with.

As for being called "controlling", lol, that would just about make my day. First off, my current girlfriend would tell you I am anything but controlling. And secondly, what do I care what some soon to be ex calls me? Because if she starts hanging out with dudes that is what she will be. Sticks and stones and all that, who gives a sh!t what some dumb b!tch calls you?

You shouldn't have to tell her "Go ahead, but don't bother coming back", she should KNOW that if she does something you don't want, you will move on. Look, when a woman tells you something like wanting to hang with other dudes... guess what... more than likely it's a freaking test.

She says something like that just joke around that you'll just have to dust off your little black book. It let's her know you have other options. Do it playfully... she'll get the message, then you don't sound like a ****.

 

[zekko]

With all due respect, RangerMike, I believe you are mistaken. I know plenty of couples and plenty of women who are in relationships but still go out and see their opposite sex friends. And they're not all old friends either, they make new ones all the time.

Unless you specifically tell her you are not cool with it, she isn't going to know what your position on the matter is. If you've followed the boundary discussions in the general forum, many guys here are okay with their girls having male friends, and even encourage them to see them. I don't find that acceptable, but many guys do. .

 

[RangerMIke]

zekko. No problem, I'm wise enough to know I don't have all the answers. Just stating what works very well for me. Every man and woman is different. But I will say this.... women REALLY don't care what you say... they are much more interested in your actions. You can tell a woman "I love you" every day, but if you don't show her respect and affection all the I love you's will be irrelivant.

Thus, sitting down and having a discussion with a woman about 'boundries' IMO is pointless. She will know the boundries without discussion by your actions.

 

[zekko]

Thus, sitting down and having a discussion with a woman about 'boundries' IMO is pointless. She will know the boundries without discussion by your actions.

I disagree with this because until we are exclusive, I don't hold her to the boundary. And if she hangs out with guys AFTER we are exclusive, then I will dump her. So I almost HAVE to let her know my expectations when she requests that we become exclusive - because unless I know that she can embrace my viewpoint on the subject I will not become exclusive with her.