Attraction can go up and down over time (Pain can lead to Pleasure)

[jamesonlager]

I was thinking realistically about this:

The past month or two I've been messing with this semi-dysfunctional girl, as a semi-dysfunctional man.

Obviously it matters to me, and I could just be all inner game alpha and say "y'all just a fish in the sea" and walk away, but the romantic in me says that it isn't that bad. I mean, come on. If you had that reaction every time things didn't go smoothly your way then there would be no passion. Then again, I signed up for this site to try and improve.

There were many days when I felt like **** about it, I was thrown into disarray after a negative interaction when I had walked in with positive expectations and a desire to ask her on a date, or reveal my feelings and revel in our attraction to one another.

There were several times when I thought it was worthless, over, and I basically decided not to give a **** about it. And then something would change in my mind overnight, and what do you know, when I see her again it has changed completely and we are both walking back toward it with a different state of mind. And the level proceeds.


The problem here is that I'm thinking we're playing games with one another, and I would like to cut through this nonsense of up and down, self-torture, lying to ourselves, hiding our feelings, and acting poorly to one another at random. I'm not sure how it's even remotely logically possible to have a great time together one day, build friendship and rapport, and then have absolutely no interaction between then and the next, and her behavior has completely changed. From a position of rational and logical ability, there is nothing that can explain this change that has to do with something I did. It might be explained through her own PMS or other exterior factors, but there is a lot more at stake.


The logical chain would look like this:

1. We are doing very well and enjoying one another as human beings, any normal person would want to do that again and crave to experience this again and in higher intensity.

2. That experience ends with us both feeling good and a weekend passes.

3. I show up without giving any indications of my own inner expectations, acting normally and the same, and her behavior shows no indication that #1 experience even occurred. She has reverted back to being professional, businesslike, and basically cut off. Emotionless, essentially. I was excited for her to read something I wrote for the class and she basically ignores the whole thing.


I left class feeling pretty awful about it, honestly. I've been trying to sort my thoughts on this all day. I feel on one hand like a ***** for thinking about it so much, but I also know in my ****ing balls that I'm the best thing in this girl's life, which is why I'm confused that she's not showing how she feels. I don't know what to do. I feel like I could play the whole alpha thing and just manipulate her into a confused frenzy like she did to me, but I would rather try something more innovative. And at the same time, I don't see why me feeling excited to see her makes me a "*****." But whatever, I'm here to learn. Maybe she didn't have the same positive experience as me the other day. I doubt it.



I think it is as much a matter of patience and being mature emotionally, and waiting, as it is the whole idea of "walking away" or cutting out emotional need. My problem is that I would let it make me upset, feel rejected or hurt. But the fact is that there are exterior factors. It would be probably kind of "beta" to just conclude that she's worthless to me and that my emotions and attraction to her should be negated just because she wasn't in the mood to talk. I can accept her state of mind basically, without letting it affect mine, while also somehow remembering the situation at large, as one that changes week to week. Unless I'm just really ****ing stupid and she's playing me like a fiddle. I don't want to be a *****.


I am thinking I will just tell her that I know she is attracted to me and ask her on a date, also telling her to drop the "hard to get" bull****. I'm a bit older than her so maybe I can use that to my advantage ("I see through your childish games, I know you want me, take my hand" etc---) It doesn't make sense for **** to go up and down like this without notice, it's wrong. It hurts me deeply that she would go from hot to cold for no reason at all after it seemed like we were getting along so well.

It is probably a waste of time. It's just a pity, to realize this is probably not going to work out. I mean, if she was really truly interested she wouldn't do this ****. What the **** is her problem? Just as "hurt" as I've been by this behavior, I'm also mad. I left class thinking "**** this phony *****." And then I can't tell if I'm insane for having these thoughts, like it was all a mirage, that my thought that we had something going was just an illusion, and all this is just my own personal delusion! But I'm telling you, every time I've gotten past that feeling that it was a "delusion" I've pushed it further into good territory. Every time I didn't doubt that I felt this way, and that she felt the same, was when I made progress. But now this **** today just has me feeling like I might have been right all along, and that she's just ****ed up or something.

And thus is my mindstate, a constant ****ing battle between different thoughts. One moment it seems like it's a worthless waste of time, the next we're making out and everything is good, the next things are on the rocks again. I guess I'm just attracted to women like this. All these idiotic dating sites say it's "part of the fun." Sure, just wanting to be open and honest about what we think isn't "fun." **** those sites.

I think she's sexy and cool and worth my time. If she doesn't feel the same way towards me I would rather know now and not keep playing stupid games, I am willing to move on. I think that is alpha in its own way.

 

[user name]

Princess Your Another Is Castle In

 

[ArcBound]

In the study of neuroscience, they found that dopamine fired when there was UNPREDICTABILITY. They tested these in lab animals and in humans.

That's why there is up and down. Your dopamine fires when something UNEXPECTED happens, not when something good happens to you.

Here's a decent article on it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/opinion/sunday/i-heart-unpredictable-love.html?_r=0

Select quotes:
Since unpredictable rewards cause more dopamine release than predictable ones and more dopamine means more pleasure, one implication of this study is that people experience more pleasure with unpredictable rewards than with predictable ones — but they may not be consciously aware of this fact.

Not just that, but there was essentially no relationship between the subjects’ stated preferences and the observed activity in their reward circuit. This suggests that our reward pathways may not only be activated without our recognition, but perhaps even in ways that are contrary to what we think we prefer.

As soon as I learned this in my neuroscience classes it all made sense. Makes sense why the boring predictable guy loses attraction in the girls eyes, why being an a$$hole or a nice guy all the time will lose attraction. Why there are these game concepts like "hot and cold" "push and pull". Humans are WIRED for it. Due to genetics though, the dopamine receptor levels can be different, hence some people like a little unpredictability every once in a while, others love the drama rollercoster of doom.

 

[jamesonlager]

Part of me writing this, even if nobody reads it, is to organize my thoughts so that I can better understand them and move beyond them. I'm certain that I need to step my alpha-confidence and self-esteem/security levels up. There is no question there, that's an ongoing thing.

At the same time, here is my conclusion to my own problem:



She is expecting me to lead the way. When I do not show my attraction in tangible, obvious ways, I fail to lead the interactions. So she doesn't know how to act. If we both feel the same way, it is my responsibility to initiate something. Obviously I can do this with confidence, it's just a matter of patience. Maybe she was too tired or something today, but whatever. I'll forget about that ****. I'm too ****ing worked up by my excitement for her which it is impossible to deny is a sort of desperation and neediness. I'm putting too many cards into this tub, and I need to learn not to do that.

(it should be noted that I'm also an ******* because on the walk to class I was thinking about another girl and actually considering the strong possibility that I would choose her over this one in my class... I mean, what the **** is that? How did I end up in this position? Maybe this girl is smarter than I thought...) Why am I simultaneously needy and alpha-*******? What causes this malfunction and dysfunction? Do you realize how hard it is to be this way? On one hand I'm very chivalrous and ethical and sweet, on the other hand I'm the coldest most ****ing badass guy ever. And these two things just **** eachother over. ****. AND THEN I'M NOTHING.






Alright, so conclusion:

Be forward with her when the moment is right. Finding the right moment requires patience and not obsessing over it... finding other women, living in the moment, not worrying about it. Working on myself and my other projects. I need to make a move though because it is up to me to lead the way. Just remember that it isn't as simple as just barge in and ask her out, I think there is a right and a wrong time to do that, maybe I'll ask on text. Man I have no ****ing idea what I'm doing.

 

[jamesonlager]

As soon as I learned this in my neuroscience classes it all made sense. Makes sense why the boring predictable guy loses attraction in the girls eyes, why being an a$$hole or a nice guy all the time will lose attraction. Why there are these game concepts like "hot and cold" "push and pull". Humans are WIRED for it. Due to genetics though, the dopamine receptor levels can be different, hence some people like a little unpredictability every once in a while, others love the drama rollercoster of doom.

That's true but as a philosopher and thinker it is my duty to rise above the bull**** that people do. I simply cannot live life as a slave to the idiotic ways of everyone else. This kind of push pull stuff is wrong and it is illogical.

Sure, it gives a thrill and it can make landing the prize a lot more passionate and enjoyable, and give it much more of a feeling of excitement. I can agree with that. And yeah, come to think of it, that's what the whole thread was supposed to be about before it turned into a Tumblr entry.

It's like, we can go through a ****load of stress and pain in EVERYTHING (relationships are just one of those things) and that always passes and leads to a new state of mind where you are better than before usually... and then that leads to pleasure and new problems. And this is just a fact, I've chronicled it. Over and over I thought everything was ****ed only to move beyond and then find myself back where I was but in a better position, at better heights and different situations. It's like all the pain and misery just has to happen, and not in the sense that it helps you learn (though un-****ing-fortunately that is probably the case), but in the sense that life just has to go up and down for no apparent reason. Things are constantly changing and our pleasures and pains are basically just stupid moments in time that constantly cycle. Blah, I'm at the edge of my ability with these last few sentences.

 

[instantnoodles]

Just hang in there, you'll be OK. Try to relax. When you panic, you cannot be in a logical state of mind. It's normal to have delusions when you feel strongly about someone. You feel so strongly, it can over-come you, you feel "this is too good to be true" and then you worry something always will go wrong, when it won't. The most important thing is to calm down, relax - it will ease your worries.

You are not nothing. Think that and you will "lose yourself" into the situation. Then your life will be a maelstrom.

Maybe you can meditate ... maybe you can meditate with her. Relax together.

 

[jamesonlager]

Cool, thanks for the posts guys.

I found this thread to be pretty mindblowing:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=196043&page=4



What's strange to me is that despite all kinds of emotional turmoil and confusion, I always come full circle to a more positive state of mind that is much more simple and open than all the cynical ****. I guess I'm surprised to see there are others who are aware of the alternatives to the sort of aggressive mentality of a lot of pickup.




Anyway, I think meditation is the best solution here. But it is important to realize what is meant by the word meditation. It's easy to get the wrong idea about it. Meditation is not only a practice, but a sort of state of mind of really truly detaching from the moment and remembering the truth, or at least remembering alternative possibilities to the present state of mind.

It's easy to be negative and to get sucked into negative thought patterns when you've been that way for a long time. That's where I'm at right now, just on the cusp of coming out of years of depression and a lack of awareness that I can actually choose to believe what I want, and how to think and feel. So I'm going to go easy on myself with this breakdown today and continue where I left off, changing negative thought patterns to positive. It's just that some days I wake up, like today, and for whatever reason I'm just way off, disconnected from the good part of myself. And that adds to and actually leads to these situations.

That's why I tell myself always to stick with it and get through the hard parts. And never go a day without a ****load of different vegetables.

Peace.

 

[JaegerPilot217]

I was thinking realistically about this:

The past month or two I've been messing with this semi-dysfunctional girl, as a semi-dysfunctional man.

Obviously it matters to me, and I could just be all inner game alpha and say "y'all just a fish in the sea" and walk away, but the romantic in me says that it isn't that bad. I mean, come on. If you had that reaction every time things didn't go smoothly your way then there would be no passion. Then again, I signed up for this site to try and improve.

There were many days when I felt like **** about it, I was thrown into disarray after a negative interaction when I had walked in with positive expectations and a desire to ask her on a date, or reveal my feelings and revel in our attraction to one another.

There were several times when I thought it was worthless, over, and I basically decided not to give a **** about it. And then something would change in my mind overnight, and what do you know, when I see her again it has changed completely and we are both walking back toward it with a different state of mind. And the level proceeds.


The problem here is that I'm thinking we're playing games with one another, and I would like to cut through this nonsense of up and down, self-torture, lying to ourselves, hiding our feelings, and acting poorly to one another at random. I'm not sure how it's even remotely logically possible to have a great time together one day, build friendship and rapport, and then have absolutely no interaction between then and the next, and her behavior has completely changed. From a position of rational and logical ability, there is nothing that can explain this change that has to do with something I did. It might be explained through her own PMS or other exterior factors, but there is a lot more at stake.


The logical chain would look like this:

1. We are doing very well and enjoying one another as human beings, any normal person would want to do that again and crave to experience this again and in higher intensity.

2. That experience ends with us both feeling good and a weekend passes.

3. I show up without giving any indications of my own inner expectations, acting normally and the same, and her behavior shows no indication that #1 experience even occurred. She has reverted back to being professional, businesslike, and basically cut off. Emotionless, essentially. I was excited for her to read something I wrote for the class and she basically ignores the whole thing.


I left class feeling pretty awful about it, honestly. I've been trying to sort my thoughts on this all day. I feel on one hand like a ***** for thinking about it so much, but I also know in my ****ing balls that I'm the best thing in this girl's life, which is why I'm confused that she's not showing how she feels. I don't know what to do. I feel like I could play the whole alpha thing and just manipulate her into a confused frenzy like she did to me, but I would rather try something more innovative. And at the same time, I don't see why me feeling excited to see her makes me a "*****." But whatever, I'm here to learn. Maybe she didn't have the same positive experience as me the other day. I doubt it.



I think it is as much a matter of patience and being mature emotionally, and waiting, as it is the whole idea of "walking away" or cutting out emotional need. My problem is that I would let it make me upset, feel rejected or hurt. But the fact is that there are exterior factors. It would be probably kind of "beta" to just conclude that she's worthless to me and that my emotions and attraction to her should be negated just because she wasn't in the mood to talk. I can accept her state of mind basically, without letting it affect mine, while also somehow remembering the situation at large, as one that changes week to week. Unless I'm just really ****ing stupid and she's playing me like a fiddle. I don't want to be a *****.


I am thinking I will just tell her that I know she is attracted to me and ask her on a date, also telling her to drop the "hard to get" bull****. I'm a bit older than her so maybe I can use that to my advantage ("I see through your childish games, I know you want me, take my hand" etc---) It doesn't make sense for **** to go up and down like this without notice, it's wrong. It hurts me deeply that she would go from hot to cold for no reason at all after it seemed like we were getting along so well.

It is probably a waste of time. It's just a pity, to realize this is probably not going to work out. I mean, if she was really truly interested she wouldn't do this ****. What the **** is her problem? Just as "hurt" as I've been by this behavior, I'm also mad. I left class thinking "**** this phony *****." And then I can't tell if I'm insane for having these thoughts, like it was all a mirage, that my thought that we had something going was just an illusion, and all this is just my own personal delusion! But I'm telling you, every time I've gotten past that feeling that it was a "delusion" I've pushed it further into good territory. Every time I didn't doubt that I felt this way, and that she felt the same, was when I made progress. But now this **** today just has me feeling like I might have been right all along, and that she's just ****ed up or something.

And thus is my mindstate, a constant ****ing battle between different thoughts. One moment it seems like it's a worthless waste of time, the next we're making out and everything is good, the next things are on the rocks again. I guess I'm just attracted to women like this. All these idiotic dating sites say it's "part of the fun." Sure, just wanting to be open and honest about what we think isn't "fun." **** those sites.

I think she's sexy and cool and worth my time. If she doesn't feel the same way towards me I would rather know now and not keep playing stupid games, I am willing to move on. I think that is alpha in its own way.

doesn't surprise me, David DeAngelo says that a mans attraction for a woman is like a light switch, meanwhile a womans attraction for a man is like volume knobs

 

[BraddH]

Exactly. This post is what I have been trying to say forever. Everyone should read this more carefully.