America Circling the Drain

[Burroughs]

the mighty George Carlin was correct

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKQs-jDI7j8&feature=related

and we all have a front row seat to the freakshow

 

[Boilermaker]

Even people in this forum tend to remember irrelevant facts about Carlin's personal life, like the circumstances of how he ended his relationship with the US army,

when Carlin exposes them to truths that are too painful for them to swallow.

So; they have to resort to some sort of relieving rationalization while slandering Carlin.

Carlin is the modern day Socrates - just a bit bitter in my opinion.

 

[Down Low]

America's returning to being the third world sh1thole it always was -- until the developed world destroyed itself and put the crown on the idiot's head.

 

[Wilko]

Hmmmmmmmm, Carlin is a very funny guy with some sharp insights on a lot of subjects, and a great ear for language, no doubt. His instincts about America could ultimately prove correct, but he embarrasses himself when he talks about economics, it's really clumsy "occupy" level stuff he's preaching. For me, it's actually a let down to see him indulging in this kind of nihilism, he's not a particularly gracious debater either.

 

[Uberguy]

Hmmmmmmmm, Carlin is a very funny guy with some sharp insights on a lot of subjects, and a great ear for language, no doubt. His instincts about America could ultimately prove correct, but he embarrasses himself when he talks about economics, it's really clumsy "occupy" level stuff he's preaching. For me, it's actually a let down to see him indulging in this kind of nihilism, he's not a particularly gracious debater either.

As an American, I hope he was wrong. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was, though. There's nothing embarrassing about his cynicism. The real embarrassment will be if we prove him right, which our populace seems to do more often with each passing day.

 

[betheman]

he is spot on about the illusion of choice and democracy, I live in the UK and its no different here, yes we have elections, you can have x or Y, that is technically a choice, however what you are really voting for is a very privileged group of individuals who are mere puppets with slightly differing political views, people who are ultimately, in it for themselves and those who control them.

 

[Burroughs]

No empire lasts forever. The usa in my opinion will be extinct within the century and this is actually a good thing for the military and corporate elite. The people in power prefer the masses poor and uneducated and ignorant. The disintegration of morality that lasted from the late 60's to present was the beginning of the end for this country. What sealed the deal was disintegration of economy. The past 4 years prove that corporations WANT a lower wages. They want the power to shift from west to east.

very true...morality is a guide that allows mankind to elevate itself...when that guide is gone decay and disintegration occur.

the time to halt the job flight would have been 20 years ago, but the middle classes did not accurately perceive the threat...today the middle class is all but extinct.

the mistake is to look to politicians for solutions....politicians have no real power...they are beholden to special interests....and are there to give the illusion of choice to the lumpen masses while real business takes place behind the curtains.

 

[hansol]

the time to halt the job flight would have been 20 years ago, but the middle classes did not accurately perceive the threat...today the middle class is all but extinct.

the mistake is to look to politicians for solutions....politicians have no real power...they are beholden to special interests....and are there to give the illusion of choice to the lumpen masses while real business takes place behind the curtains.

I love this. So do tell exactly how one would "halt" the job flight? Because the "problem" is actually easily illustrated via America's love of Walmart, aka cheap ****:

You have a product. It takes $5.00 of materials to create, and 4 hours to build. Country A has wage controls, saying minimum wage is $25/hour. Country B has no minimum wage, and accordingly prices the labour rate at $1.00/hour.

Given the above, said product will cost $105 to create in Country A, and $9 to create in Country B.

The middle class in the USA doesn't want to (or simply can't afford to) spend $105 for a T-shirt produced in Country A (ie. "Made in the USA"), so instead they go to Walmart and buy Country B product for $9.00.

It really is as simple as the Western countries pricing themselves out of the market. The above is exactly what happened in the American textiles industry, and is what happened/is happening in the automotive industry with regards to hefty union wages. Cost of labour is simply higher in the western countries vs. offshore. And even if a company did want to buy "made in USA" material/labour, the cost of the finished product wouldn't move off the shelf, and that company would go bankrupt.

Jobs moving offshore is simply a matter of SUSTAINABILITY, not profiteering.

As an aside, a disfunctional political system, a ridiculous legal system with regards to drugs/crime, limited job opportunities, and unbelievable political contribution/donation rules, leads one to believe that the US is either in for a serious change-up (not likely) or a slow decay (more likely) in the near future.

 

[Uberguy]

I love this. So do tell exactly how one would "halt" the job flight? Because the "problem" is actually easily illustrated via America's love of Walmart, aka cheap ****

All good points. The most straightforward options would be for the U.S. to (A) enact protectionist policies to protect traditional industries, especially manufacturing, and (B) to invest in a massive job training program concerning innovative industries, such as nanotechnology.

Protectionism is not a perfect strategy; it encourages complacency instead of competition, and for that reason, I can see why it's avoided. But for obvious reasons of national security, it's in a nation's best interest to ensure that it has a strong manufacturing base. Countries artificially manipulate prices on a regular basis (hello...China), and the U.S. would be well within its rights to place tariffs on goods coming from nations that continue to uphold unfair labor and trading practices (*ahem* hello...China).

Training is a slower strategy, but a better one in the long term. What made the U.S. so dominant after the War (aside from the two oceans that prevented it from being ravaged like the rest of the developed world) was that it was doing things better than anyone else was in the world. The best cars? American. The best planes? American. The best yadda yadda yadda. But those technologies are no longer special; the Germans and Japanese did remarkable jobs of reallocating their martial energies into economic policies that resulted in Detroit turning from the Automotive Capital of the World into...well...Detroit. Americans will not be able to get similar yields out of the same industries again; the technology and labor force required to make a high quality car can come cheaper from abroad than the U.S.

But the U.S. also has insane amounts of capital, as is evident by the fact that the U.S. spends more money on military expenditures than the next ten countries combined. If we took just a fraction of that money (say, we only spent as much money on warfare as the next five countries combined), we'd have literally hundreds of billions of dollars to invest in all kinds of next-generation technologies. Nanotech, genomics & personalized medicine, cybernetics, etc. If we're going to lead the world economically, we're going to have to invest our capital and efforts into literally launching new industries that no one else has even worked on yet.

Will that ever happen? I don't believe it's impossible. But I don't think it's probable.

 

[Burroughs]

But the U.S. also has insane amounts of capital, as is evident by the fact that the U.S. spends more money on military expenditures than the next ten countries combined. If we took just a fraction of that money .

Bwahahahahahaha

that will NEVER happen

why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxnpujfanUM&feature=related

I guess JFK was a conspiracy 'theorist' by todays bankrupt standards

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Burroughs,
I think Espi has it just right....The States lost their last chance in the sixties,during the Vietnam War,when they had an excuse to sort China out...The genie is out of the bottle now...What price Napoleonwhen he said "China is a sleeping giant,when she wakes the world will tremble"?....They have the advantage of a homogeneous population,they even all look the same,believe me we look a strange bunch to them...We are steadily destroying our borders and becoming a brindle bred population of mongrels,a casserole if you like,but not all casseroles are nice to eat.

 

[Colossus]

Personally I think the US will be economically and politically defunct within the next 100 years, due to our unsustainable way of life, entitlement, and exorbitant spending. Mark my words, the Affordable Care Act will go down as one of the harbingers of America's decline.

There are a lot of hardworking people here who embody what America was built on, but there are 10x as many lazy, fat, uneducated, entitled slobs who want the best but dont want to pay or work for it.

Mostly, though, I think our absurd debt and spending will usher us into the hands of another empire....probably China.

 

[Burroughs]

the slide continues...

we cannot keep borrowing forever.

As a nation we have to come the realization that we are no longer an industrial nation and that the blue collar middle class is a figment of the past.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/scranton-minimum-wage-city-police-firemen-140229063.html

 

[sodbuster]

Henry Haslitt wrote a book on economics...forget the name right now that debunks all the Keynesian theory we use now. The biggest idea in it is the alternate uses of money...ie what the money would do if spent somewhere else.

The best example is the "broken window" . If a gang breaks a bakers window, he has to replace it paying the glass company to fix it. The GOVERNMENT see's that and passes laws to pay gangs to break windows,thinking it will stimulate the economy. What the government fails to see is that the baker was GOING to spend that money on a new suit. So he would have STILL stimulated the economy and the country would be richer because he would have had the suit and a window.

As another example, the protectionism. IF we subsidized the textile industry and all our shirts cost $10 more just to keep an obsolete industry afloat... What would we have spent that money on? Some new industry product? What jobs AREN'T being created in a NEW industry because we need to spend an extra 500 a year on clothes?

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear SodBuster,
There is much to be said for protectionism......Making the Monroe doctrine live again behind tariff walls,is a vague possibility,it would certainly work too!.....My perception is,that whatever happens The Power is inexorably moving East....That doesn't mean that the US is finished....Far from it,Your large population base,vast reserves of Food and resources,not to forget your remarkable sense of industry and free enterprise,suggest that America will still be a great power for centuries,giving its people the highest standards of living and personal freedom....You just won't be the greatest on the World scene.....Since involving myself with Chinese Women(Smartest move I ever made),I have read a great deal,studied them both here(Where I always have a few students boarding with me)and on a number of extensive trips over there....You find much to admire in China,a few things to dislike,but not a lot to fear...As to understanding them?....For us that's Impossible!

 

[backbreaker]

we live a few blocks from a target and wal mart is not that close. but i love wal mart. and not beucase the prices

nothing pisses me off more than okay it's grocery day and i am from arkansas, we have the supercenter wal marts, i can start on one end of wal mart by the time i have got to the other end i have beeng rocery shopping, got some socks, some tolertires, a few new video games, a few movies for my date later on, some candy, a new printer and **** the wal mart in ltitle rock had my bank or one of my banks inside the wal mart i could take care of my freaking banking needs all in wal mart.

with target, first, they are high. but they have quality stuff so that is not my biggest issue. you can get some stuff at target but you can't really go grocery shopping at target. they have just enough of everything to piss you off, so you end up going there then you have to go to whole foods to go get food then you have to run somewhere else to get your kid a few new movies. that pisses me off more than the money does.

when i was living in little rock and i was single, i work out and i eat very high quality food, i bought grocery once a week, my grocery bill was about...between 200-250 a week for me.

we spend every bit of 1500 on just groceries here at whole foods a month. not including BBQ food as we cook out a lot or alcohol. she works out i work out, we have a son so we have to keep snacks and **** around.. part of that is from my need to keep a full pantry at all times, but still man they breaking people out here with these prices. just dropped 350 on just freaking FOOD for the three of us and that might last a week. I consume every bit of 4000 cals a day and eat whole fishess just by myself so a lot of it is just my meat and fish and stuff but still. if we got everything at wal mart that woudl ahve been closer to 220-200.

 

[AW1983]

The States lost their last chance in the sixties,during the Vietnam War,when they had an excuse to sort China out...

Scara, I never thought about it like this before, would you care to expound?

Keynesian theory

Man economics is a minor pastime of mine, and I have been flabbergasted since day one that we (in the US) use Keynes as a model still!

Seems like it really gained clout with the new deal, but ironically, the last stats I read on it a while back had 49% of academic economists stating the New Deal prolonged and worsened the Great Depression. Keynesian economics certainly weren't what turned this country from nothing into the world superpower in two short centuries...

 

[AW1983]

That doesn't mean that the US is finished....Far from it,Your large population base,vast reserves of Food and resources,not to forget your remarkable sense of industry and free enterprise,suggest that America will still be a great power for centuries,giving its people the highest standards of living and personal freedom....You just won't be the greatest on the World scene...

Man, what a refreshing way to perceive the future of my country, the state of which I am currently watching disintegrate with every passing day. I agree with you but I think there is going to be some serious civil unrest/war first. Perhaps within our lifetime.

On the bright side though, I believe the US would be an extremely difficult country to invade/occupy due to firearm ownership. Nothing unites Americans (or anyone for that matter) who usually hate each other like a common foe. Which would turn every citizen who owns a gun into a militiaman. Something like what happened in the 1770's...

 

[backbreaker]

people who are quick to say how American is going down the drain and how we are losing our power and stuff along those lines i mean make no mistake i don't like everything that is going on but when statements like that are made it tells me that person has never been outside the country at least seriously.

even compared to Europe. lol have you ever been to italy? step outside of Rome or Florance and besides the scenery i would rather live in Mississippi. people do not realize just how much FOOD, how much to do, how many options we have here in America. 'm not going to say it's the greatest place on earth i have not been everywhere, but it's a lot better off than it's citizens give it credit for. There are certain things that other countries do better than us.. the smartest 2 employees I have are both native Indians who live here in LA, and are damn near genius es both of them. much smarter than i am and both younger than I am. we had a pertty intense debate when my wife was pregnant with my son, she was not my wife at the time.. they have universal health care in england and she's an english citizen. we damn near flew to her home land to have our son lol. but as a WHOLE, i will take the US. I wish we produced more actual tangible **** and did not rely on scheming and motivating to make our money we rely much too much on services today that scares me more than anything. we don't make anything anymore. but as a whole. there aren't too many countries where a minority drug addict can turn his life around, start 2 successful companies before he's 30.

I think americans problems is that in general they are too spoiled. But the beauty of our country is that the cream will always rise to the very top and as long as there are dreamers and doers out there, we will be fine.

 

[Bible_Belt]

On the bright side though, I believe the US would be an extremely difficult country to invade/occupy due to firearm ownership. Nothing unites Americans (or anyone for that matter) who usually hate each other like a common foe. Which would turn every citizen who owns a gun into a militiaman. Something like what happened in the 1770's...

I agree. But I credit diesel fuel and fertilizer, both of which are required for any large-scale agriculture, and when combined, will also blow up anything. The dilemma to the occupiers would be that if they took them away, eventually everyone would starve.