A Serious Fallacy on this website regarding success

[I'm Joe Dirt]

There is a serious fallacy going on all the time on this website. I was writing another post for another thread when it hit me.

That fallacy is that some of you people who are GOOD at this are making it look too easy.

A lot of people here who are AFCs or aren't at the skill level of some of the people here are looking at guys like GGTW and others who are good (I'm terrible with names, but I remember GGTW from his numerous field reports) and are probably thinking that they can go out there and say the same exact lines and replicate their success.

Or that they can go out and use the same techniques and routines and pull off that same success - WITH THE AFC MINDSET.

People who are good at approaches and dating women haven't always been that way. I'm sure even GGTW didn't just read an article online and instantly transformed himself from an AFC to a master DJ in 5 minutes.

That's not the way it works.

This is all about trial and error and practice. The thing is when you are delivering a line or technique that requires a certain set of body language or tonality to work, and you are not on the level that you feel comfortable speaking to women, you will fail even if you try that line.

You have to be with a lot of women, as in talk to a lot of women first. This will help you get rid of that gut feeling of insecurity and lack of comfort. Only then can you proceed to more advanced tactics and lines.

You also have to change your personality to one of a person who does and say this kind of stuff. Ever think to yourself when you saw a DJ in action in real world "boy if I did that I would so get smacked!"?

The reason that a DJ can get away with certain lines and body language and kino and stuff is because he communicates from the start that he is a person who does this kind of stuff.

If you met someone who was really quiet and shy and they seemed well mannered and reseverd (imagine the class nerd who always sat by himself) and they all of a sudden put on a party hat and started yelling and screaming and dancing, they would look out of place too because you're not used to seeing them in the right context.

The thing is that context gets established very quickly, so you have to project your personality through clothes, mannerisms, other body language, etc. very quickly and ALL THE TIME - which is easy if you are in that mind set - for any of this to work.

There is no DJ switch where you are an introverted geek who spends all his time online and you see a hot babe and you just flip that switch and you're Mr. Cool, Outgoing, and Fun and all of a sudden you can go up to anyone and do your magic, then flip it again when you're done and be back to your introverted geeky self.

Because THAT is what causes you to look incongruent and out of place when you do stuff that other guys who are always outgoing, cool, and fun can do anytime without anyone raising an eyebrow.

You gotta get in this mindset, you gotta CHANGE your personality, you gotta BE THIS NEW PERSON ALL THE TIME until it becomes WHO YOU REALLY are.

To be really succesful you have to understand that if you are very quiet, shy, introverted, it wont be enough for you to just incorporate a few one liners and techniques and be succesful, you will just fumble looking for that elusive DJ switch that causes people to see you as incongruent and out of place.

You have to BECOME A DJ not just LEARN A DJ's TRICKS. Big difference.

 

[SELF-MASTERY]

Good post


Is introversion such a bad thing? I often sit alone in my classes and chat up a few ppl I like and know afterwards. I'm more of a 1-on1 kind of guy. I would rather take someone away from the group and give them attention than play the jester.

If I spot a girl I want, I dont have any trouble spraying some game her way. I've based my game around who I am, which might seem pretty incongruent: at one moment im chilling alone all aloof, then the next moment Im tellin jokes with someone of interest.

I think most newbies shouldn't even worry about running lines and patterns. The forum isnt here to replace all of the old you, use it to improve your faults and enhance your good qualities.

Don't get caught up in all that "dj" alpha BS. Be the BEST YOU.:cheer:

 

[salsipuedes]

I remember the first day i started working as a waiter, i was terrified to go to a table and talk with total strangers, the first days i avoided all talk except for the very basics, but with time, i learned to relax and be very outgoing and friendly with people, in 6 months i went from terrified of aproaching people, to being the best waiter at that restaurant.

Work hard and put yourself in tough situations over and over again, and you will conquer your fears.

 

[I'm Joe Dirt]

Well I think being introverted limits your options. If you are quiet and shy and you approach a girl after a class, you are conveying interest. Its very obvious and its strong.

If you are extroverted and you are loud in class always talking to people and having a good time and you approach that same girl, all you're doing is being who you are - that is a person who likes to have a good time, and you are just saying whats up.

There is still some indication of interest, but not nearly as strong.

If you are introverted, and all of a sudden you walk up to a girl (who has seen You the Introvert) and you start being loud, ****y and funny, and projecting good body language, you will seem out of place. Like as if something fishy was going on.

It is possible to be attractive by keeping your mind mannered demeanor and just sprakling your language and conversational skills with DJ things to say, but you won't be able to use a lot of the more flashy techniques that some of the DJs here use to do cold approaches.

What my post is about people looking at extroverted types like some of the DJs here and thinking they can do what they do without having that whole mindset and attitude.

I remember the first day i started working as a waiter, i was terrified to go to a table and talk with total strangers, the first days i avoided all talk except for the very basics, but with time, i learned to relax and be very outgoing and friendly with people, in 6 months i went from terrified of aproaching people, to being the best waiter at that restaurant.

Work hard and put yourself in tough situations over and over again, and you will conquer your fears.

Yep exactly. You started off not being very social and your experience changed who you were. You weren't the awkward waiter making awkward conversation, you became a pretty outgoing and friendly waiter.

Same thing in this discipline of picking up girls, you start wherever you are but you have to go on a journey to change who you are into someone you want to be and someone who is more successful (that is if you want to take full advantage of what this website and many methods out there online like David D, Mystery, etc. have to offer)

 

[SELF-MASTERY]

Well I think being introverted limits your options. If you are quiet and shy and you approach a girl after a class, you are conveying interest. Its very obvious and its strong.

I practice direct game with a bit of levity all day long everywhere I go. So I doubt I come on strong. I have never been a fan of the universal life of the party guy model. At times I am that guy busting jokes in the back (when Im with all my pals), but I like being that guy who comes from the corner of the class builds rapport and then gets the girl. It feels like a better way to make a connection, also, in my experience it gives the girl the wow factor........Hard to explain.

 

[SELF-MASTERY]

It's good to be in a light sexual state when you pickup girls (MAVEC)

Oddly enough, the powers of MAVEC are true. I have used it with much success, it doent hurt that I have the sexiest flirtiest eyes ever.

 

[nishbuk]

I agree. When it comes to women, I'm far from the skill level of a GGTW or Black Italian...but, that doesn't negate the fact that I had to work my ass off to get here. I mean seriously work my ass off.

You're absolutely right in your first post when you say that being a DJ is a mindset, and there's a reason DJs can get away with saying certain things, and AFCs can't.

But the other thing that I think is true, is that everyone inevitably needs to develop their own style. There is not set of pickup lines, or a play book that you can use to enhance your success. The way you act has to be a part of you, so much so that it is you, not some facade of pickups and smooth moves. It doesn't work like that.

I only started having any "luck" whatsoever when I stopped using "lines" from the bible, and realized that I had it in me the entire time. I could say some pretty bold things, and realize, "hell yeah, that is exactly how I felt". I felt better, had more presence. Now, some days are better than others, and I drop into my old self if I'm having a ****ty day, and there are alot of times, when I revert all the back to a ****ing AFC. But that's part of it too...

 

[SELF-MASTERY]

I only started having any "luck" whatsoever when I stopped using "lines" from the bible, and realized that I had it in me the entire time. I could say some pretty bold things, and realize, "hell yeah, that is exactly how I felt". I felt better, had more presence. Now, some days are better than others, and I drop into my old self if I'm having a ****ty day, and there are alot of times, when I revert all the back to a ****ing AFC. But that's part of it too...

So true.... Some canned line from the bible isn't you. I use my humor and get the girls laughing, sometimes even calling them on their BS brings them closer.

 

[I'm Joe Dirt]

Its true, you have to develop your own style, but the methods are solid and you can build on them no matter the style.

The principles of dating hold true no matter what kind of content you have.

 

[So pimp its scary]

Re: Re: A Serious Fallacy on this website regarding success

Originally posted by GodsGiftToWomen
Good post. But I'm no master. I am however having lots of fun on my journy there. And wherever you guys are you should be having fun too. Sure I can dates and whatever but I haven't really gone out with SHB9's yet. Therefore I'm just a beginner. I can say though that I'm very close in getting HB8's and 9's on a normal basis. It takes A LOT of practice.

Get in the field. It's the only way you will get good. I now have a notebook in which I write tips for myself on what works perfectly with my game. I write down different scenerios in a cold pickup and what to say in different situations. I write what I did wrong and what I can improve on. Always be ready to pick up a girl. Try to look your best when you go out. Always be ready for ANYTHING. You never know when you can pull a FClose. It's good to be in a light sexual state when you pickup girls (MAVEC). All the tips in the world, including mine, cannot do much if anything for you if you don't get in the field and practice.

OK now I'm just rambling so I'll stop there. Good luck!

I was going to say something to the same effect... I've repeated it at least 100 times to the newbies, that I'm not a master by any means, but I'm still pretty good.

Joe Dirt - For each person is a different learning curve... some people might just read one or two posts, get the inspiration, or that piece of information that 'opens the floodgates' and then go out and double their success (probably the exceptions rather than the rules).

I'll use myself as an example, because I am intimately aware of what's gone on in my life. I got laid first time, just before my 16 b-day, then went the next 2 and a half-years without even a date. Started reading this website, and it took me 6 months of trying to get my head straight before going out in the 'field'... the first night I came home with 7 girls phone numbers (3 were fake). I've continued to make mistakes and learn from them since, to now where I'm not picking up the super hot chicks, but the general consensus would probly place them between 7's and 8's on the 10 scale for looks.

I tried to calculate roughly what it's taken me, in the past 4 years, I've read about 15-20 books (self-help, psychology, NLP, etc) and approached in the area of 1400-1600 women in that time (with intent to mack on them).... I don't approach half the woman that I was originally, because I don't have to. If I did, I'd have to start dating at least 1 women each night... I mean, juggling 3-4 women at a time can get pretty stressful sometimes.

There is a definite learning curve for this, something I'm going to post about in the next week or two.

I went through all of that to develop the mindset required... and it seems to happen that just when I think I've attained a new height, something comes around to put me back in my place. It seems every 'dip' in skill is followed soon after by a 'hike'.

And yes, you are right about not just learning the tricks... but at the same time, you have to learn the tricks to learn the mindset. That is the part that takes the longest, for that little switch to go on where you just 'get' it.

 

[zerocelcius]

is this directed at me, cause I think it is directed at me. Listen just because I am a pimp and pull phat hotties dosn't mean that the noobies have to fallow in my foot steps.

But if they do than that is on them. they came here and if copying me they find them self surrounded by hotties than that is on them.

 

[Blue Phoenix]

Originally posted by SELF-MASTERY
The forum isnt here to replace all of the old you, use it to improve your faults and enhance your good qualities.

Don't get caught up in all that "dj" alpha BS. Be the BEST YOU.:cheer:

I agree. You don't have to give up who you are to be this DJ prototype. Just learn and adapt the best methods you see here to your persona and overcome your main flaws.

 

[Stag]

Well, Joe Dirt,
It actually is easy, lol.
However, you r missing the point. Just being outgoing and "loud" is not what gets you the girl, neither does great hair and pearly white teeth.
You can be kwuiet and still show ibterest in a girl for god sakes. If you r juist a clown running around talking to everybody and not showing interest then u go home alone with **** in your hand.
The answer is to get over inhibitions and insecurities.
Do that for a change. Go to your local pharmacy or store where everybody knows u and buy biggest pack of condoms (preferably also biggest size, lol). Then walk all around the store with them and then walk around your neiborhood with them, so every body can see them.
Well, im sure ur going to feel like the FBI has suspected u of being a terrorist and is now interogating you. This fear and nervousness, my friend, is your enemy. It is society telling you in your head that it is wrong to display your sexuality like that (condomns= im having sex). Well, do that exercise until you feel totally comfortable. Evemn talk to people with the condoms in your hand, especially women. Even if you have to just ask for directions or where you can buy stuff.
Once u feel comfortable u will have gotten over some fears, not all but many.
So do stuff like that that makes you feel uncomfortable and ashamed of yourself until you feel totally comfortable. Then you will be a playboy.

 

[I'm Joe Dirt]

Great exercize stag! I can see how that could really help someone get over their fears.

I am not saying you HAVE to be loud/very outgoing to be a DJ, but if you want to approach a group of women who are upbeat you damn well better be. You have to be able to slide into the situation comfortably and not stand out in a negative way.

If everyone in a group is having fun and is upbeat and you approach them looking/acting like you just killed a man you won't get very far.

So you have to realize that for some techniques you read about here to work you have to have a certain mindset and it has to be YOUR mindset. You can fake it till you make it, but the goal should be to make it eventually, and only then will success come oftentimes.

And yes, you are right about not just learning the tricks... but at the same time, you have to learn the tricks to learn the mindset. That is the part that takes the longest, for that little switch to go on where you just 'get' it.

I somewhat disagree here. You have to get the right mindset first, and then fill in the blanks with techniques.

For example you have to have the mindset that you are the selector. You don't need any tricks for that, just learn that mindset and think about it until you got that engraved in your mind. Got it? Good. Now learn the techniques that help you show you are the selector in an attractive way.

See what I mean? The mindset has to come first. You have to have a certain set of beliefs about women and about yourself first for the techniques to work their full potential.

Once you have the right attitude down and you've learned how to reframe limiting beliefs, what kind of beliefs to have, once you've gotten yourself a strong identity and worked on establishing your own reality and living in your own reality, only then can you say "okay, I know this, I got my act together, but whats next?"

That's when you get into the techniques and pick up lines and other things that serve as guides on how to project and communicate the set of ATTRACTIVE beliefs you already have, rather than learning the lines and techniques first and trying to communicate something you don't believe in.

Ever notice how you can tell if someone really believes what they are saying? Like you can talk about any topic with a person, but when you get to something they have strong beliefs about you can tell.

Like if you're debating politics and you are talking about some boring aspects of it like taxes or whatever, and then you get to a hot button topic like abortion or the War in Iraq and the other person has a REALLY strong belief one way or the other you can just tell right away that this is something that goes deeper than just words with them, that this isn't just information or opinions they are reciting but that this is something more personal.

I hope you can all see what I'm trying to say here.

In that same way, when you try a pick up line or some other conversational technique that is intended to convey a certain attractive belief or value about yourself to the girl to score points with her and get you closer to her two things can happen.

If you are just acting and you don't really have the values or beliefs you are trying to communicate, the line or technique won't be as strong, sometimes even if it will fail miserably.

And if the values or beliefs you are communicating subconciously (or you are trying to communicate) are not congruent with the values or beliefs you have already shown her, then she will be able to tell something is fishy in her gut, and that isnt a good thing for you or your chances with her. So thats even worse than not appearing convinced, because now its apparent you are using a trick or doing something shady, even if she isnt sure what it is yet.

If you do, however, really believe that and you learned that line not as a trick but as a way to help you communicate something you strongly and really believe in, it will sound much better and work much better. And if its congruent with who you appear to be at all times, it will be even more powerful in your advantage.

 

[So pimp its scary]

Joe dirt, I thought for a second I was going to have to retract my statement...

Then I thought about it a little bit more... in the end I think we're both right.

Here me out : Let's use the idea of "You are the prize" (mostly because considering yourself the selector doesn't necessarily mean anything if that's all you do is select and get shot down...

Anyway, Mr. AFC shyly walks in wanting to empower his dating life. First thing that you tell him is 'Think of yourself as the prize to be sought after, women will see this and will try to win the prize.'

Here is where our disagreement comes in...

Mr. AFC will ask next, "HOW do I show the woman that I am the prize?" (Remember, he has no clue).

You might tell him things like; 'be a little bit arrogant, but be funny about it', 'Don't put the woman on a pedastal', 'Don't take bullshyt from a woman.', etc.

If our good friend, Mr. AFC, is dedicated to learning... he will have the right thoughts in his mind. ("I AM THE PRIZE! I am the prize!") Yet, deep down inside he still knows he's NOT the prize because he hasn't the references in his life to truly believe it.

So, what does he do? He will start rejecting women's bullshyt, he will act arrogant without being funny about it, he'll smack the woman straight off the pedastal, right below him... The thing is that these women will see right through his behavior, because he doesn't have the beliefs to back them up.

Then there will be more and more good reactions, and with each one, he adds a new reference to his life that maybe he just might be the prize... things start to level off, and eventually he'll have the right attitude and in the right proportions, backed up by the right beliefs...

He will become the success.

 

[I'm Joe Dirt]

Yeah, I agree with you there. I don't think your post directly contradicts much of mine.

The whole idea is that when any guy is starting out and he has the wrong beliefs, he will be rejected and some of the good ideas won't work very well.

As he makes the transformation to the right mindset the stuff will work dramatically better and eventually he reaches mastery of the skills and becomes a natural.

The point remains the same, that everyone who is new should in some way be making a concious effort to reframe his own inner game and activley try to become a DJ. "Fake it till you make it" I believe is the saying, though while your faking it you won't see much success or as much of it as you will once you've got the right mindset.

There are always multiple ways of doing things. I think if a guy reads up on psychology and NLP and works on reframing his limiting beliefs, building a strong reality of his own, and thinking about things like why its important to have a strong reality and stuff, basically the whole inner game, and goes on to techniques second, he will have more success sooner.

The downside of aquiring the DJ mindset like in your example is that if the first few "faking it" approaches don't work the guy trying might give up thinking it wont work and if his inner game isnt strong enough to withstand and learn from rejection and turn it into a constructive rather than destructive incident, it may drive him deeper into AFCland rather than on the path to being a DJ.

Being able to learn from and deal with rejection like its no big deal requires a very optimistic mindset and requires the person to be secure and living in a strong reality of their own where rejection doesn't hurt them that much. And that is basically the inner game.

So if someone was to learn to be a DJ and getting the DJ mindset by doing, I would recommend that at least they get that minimal level of their inner game going so that they can brace themselves for rejection early on and for them to stick to the material so that they can eventually work through that.

Unfortunatley, judging by some of the "hi im a loser whose 50 and never kissed a girl" posts I think a large part of this website's viewership may not be able to persevere through rejection on their way to learning.

There are some people reading this post right now who don't have the balls to sign up and ask their own questions (every forum has lurkers), so if whoever is reading this hasnt even had the courage to sign up and post I really doubt that persons inner game is strong enough to take rejection so lightly that it becomes a tool in learning how to become a DJ.

 

[animal crackers]

The sad thing is, rejection is the only way to really know where you stand. I'm sure all the guys who don't really approach, or only approach when the girl obviously wants to rape them is really missing out on the big picture.

You know guy x has an image in his mind that he should get women, after all he has all the knowledge and knows he needs to be confident and blah blah blah...The truth is when he firsts starts going out...he won't be very good.

It's going to be different for different guys as far as how fast your learning curve is, but think of it this way:

Basically NOONE IN THE WORLD can consistantly have sex from cold approaches the way that you have pictured in your mind. This is a pretty big relief when you realize just by being able to approach, you set yourself apart from over 89% of guys.


As far as lines go. You're absolutely right, they have to be a part of you. If a girl can tell you're saying a line to her it's game over. That being said, I have never actually memorized lines, but when in field I spontaneously remember shlt from these websites. The BIGGEST 2 advantage to having SOME lines in your toolbox are:

-Fall back lines when you stall.
-Good transitions for physical escalation.


Like, for example my last FR. I used a great line that let me go for the kiss very early, and very smoothly with little or no chance of rejection.

AC "Are you adventurous"
HB "Yea"
AC "Are you spontaneous"
HB "Yea"
AC "Close your eyes"

I then kiss her and she reciprocates. She already said she was adventurous and spontaneous, so she basically HAS to kiss me to be congruent with that.





AC

 

[OneArmDeeJay]

Originally posted by animal crackers

Like, for example my last FR. I used a great line that let me go for the kiss very early, and very smoothly with little or no chance of rejection.

AC "Are you adventurous"
HB "Yea"
AC "Are you spontaneous"
HB "Yea"
AC "Close your eyes"

I then kiss her and she reciprocates. She already said she was adventurous and spontaneous, so she basically HAS to kiss me to be congruent with that.





AC

I'll have to try that. Hopefully I don't get slaped. But hell, it would be worth it not to mention make a damn good story.

 

[I'm Joe Dirt]

Yeah, that sounds like you used the Weapon of Influence of Commitment and Consistency.

The entire point here though is if you are reading this site and practicing the material with a losing mindset it won't work for you very well. Let this be noted by everyone who does so they can stop that right away and start working on their inner game.

And guess what guys, your inner game is important not just for girls but for life in general. If you got your act together you will feel better about work, school, and everything else. It will just raise you like a tide, and a rising tide lifts all boats - including your dating one.

Women find men who have their act together VERY attractive.

 

[Visceral]

You can't fight the learning curve, and I'll bet that successful men don't even try to fight it; they don't have to, because the learning curve is perhaps the one thing that a man may submit to without shame.

If you're here looking for "cheat codes" to the game, or for a critical mass of information to explode you into the Ultimate DJ, then you're screwed, because this will never happen.

If you're too ashamed to own up to your flaws and take some humbling and grueling action to fix them, then you're also screwed, because there's no other way to improve.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overcoming the "loser mentality" - breaking free of the belief that success is anything but a matter of time and sustained effort - is the most important step to be taken. Absolutely nothing will change in your life until you do this.

Unfortunately, most of the guys here are drowning in the loser mentality - you can tell by the reverence in which concepts like masculinity, success, and happiness are held; they're treated as God-given gifts - like looks or athletic ability - or as some aristocratic privilege that only men so equipped have a right to. Your birthright may not be given to you cheaply, much less for free, but you've got to get rid of the thinking that you have to be Der Ubermensch in order to have a claim to it.

To put something on a pedestal is to deny yourself it, a statement of "It's better than me; I don't deserve it." Everyone says not to put women on a pedestal, but perhaps we need to also start staying not to put masculinity on a pedestal as well. You suck at life because masculinity is behind glass in the museum of your mind for you to gawk at when it needs to be down in the trenches with you.

Personally, I'm aware of a "chicken and the egg" sort of paradox when it comes to the DJ mentality. Any man who takes real, sustained action towards what he desires doesn't have as much wrong with him as he might think; if anything, the proper mentality is fully functional, he's just never used it before. But what about the guys here who don't take action - are they trapped in a paradox of needing the proper mentality in order to develop it?