A bit of cynicism...

[Colossus]

Sometimes I think the only reason women get into relationships is to ensure a reliable source of security and attention. Do you really think they give a fvck about YOU...or just what you can provide for them?

At times they seem to have no discernable sense of honor, accountability, or loyalty beyond their momentary whims. I see this in more and more relationships now; probably because I am aware of it. 1,2, and 3+ year relationships where the man is seen as nothing more than a source of provision. She doesnt give a fvck about him; only that her needs or agenda is met.

Alternatively it could be argued that men dont care much for women so long as she is attractive, tolerable, and provides him with a steady flow of pvssy. Is this an even trade? I keep getting the sense that women are innately disingenuous when going about realtionships. All they want to do is manipluate you with subtle modalities until they have secured their provisioner to a point where he cant just walk out the door without serious consequences.

Ever consider why you always get sex on top of sex in the first few months or year of a relationship? This is how men get into relationships! The sex ALWAYS drops off after this incubatory period. Children? Kiss sex goodbye as you once knew it. Marriage? Your days of carefree romps in the field with your lovley little lady are OVER.

I know I'm painting with broad strokes here, but sometimes the weight of these realizations is oppressive. I really want to believe in mutual partnership; in EQUITABLE monogamy, but I find it increasingly difficult to ignore the evidence.

 

[Vulpine]

It's tough.

With all that we read about here on SS, it certainly does paint a pretty bleak picture. Hell, I look back at all my relationships of the past and am left with some pretty negative conclusions:

I'm a walking dildo.
I'm half the month's rent.
I'm half of the chores.
I'm half of the errands completed.

...and that's about it. It's hard not to feel like a tool.

So, then we come to SS and get the low-down. At first, I was extremely bitter. Then I became hateful, but eventually I made it to the better place where I had to accept my portion of the blame.

I didn't qualify women - plain and simple. I never saw myself as the most important person in my life and, consequently, had all my priorities wrong. It was me, and me alone, who was to blame for getting disrespected, used, abused, violated, and strung along. Now, my priorities have all changed for the better. I have qualifications now.

Unfortunately, women are so used to dealing with AFC's (others who I once used to be like) that their personalities, beliefs, and behaviors are molded around a lifestyle I don't care to associate with. That pretty much disqualifies the bulk of modern women as far as I was concerned.

So, I now resigned to "training" a woman to suit me. If I find a woman that qualifies (for the most part), chances are that she's just going to not "know how to act" simply because she's never HAD to exhibit any sort of [good] behaviors before (allowed to remain unaccountable for any and all actions, etc.).

Think of it like getting a pet. I will never have another pet unless I will raise it from a kitten or puppy. That way, the pet will only know ME and how I expect it to act. If I get a pet from the pound or somewhere else, it's already learned how to interact with humans. Someone might have thought it was cute if the animal ate off of the same plate that they did, or that it was neat to have a dog jumping up on them when they got home. Those behaviors are not behaviors I want, so I'd have to jack around with retraining the animal. That animal may never learn the correct behaviors!

Unfortunately, women have many AFC "owners" before us, so, they have a lot of "bad training" (not to mention media training). The only way to have a "perfect" woman would be to have an arranged marriage and grow up together, or, raise a woman from a baby yourself. That shît would NEVER happen in western culture, so we have to work with the best we get.

Which means we'll have to waste some time training. The trick is simply finding a woman who will respond to the training.

 

[Aenigma]

All they want to do is manipluate you with subtle modalities until they have secured their provisioner to a point where he cant just walk out the door without serious consequences.

Yea, once they have you to the point where it looks like you'll never leave (due to love, children, marriage- whatever) the mask comes off. That's why women will freak out when you refuse to get married or even ask for a prenup- its not about love or being together to most of them; its about exploiting men maximally for their benefit.

Unfortunately, women are so used to dealing with AFC's (others who I once used to be like) that their personalities, beliefs, and behaviors are molded around a lifestyle I don't care to associate with.

I hear you 100%. I'm sure that so many of the negative behaviors I've observed from even semi-attractive women is due to the plauge of AFC's willing to put up with anything and everything that they dish out just for a CHANCE at intimacy. They think that every man who wants a relationship is like this so it ruin's their relationship with Men who have actually have self-respect- they won't take the BS and manipulations that the women are so use to employing on AFCs- they eventually get fed up and leave.

So, I now resigned to "training" a woman to suit me. If I find a woman that qualifies (for the most part), chances are that she's just going to not "know how to act" simply because she's never HAD to exhibit any sort of [good] behaviors before (allowed to remain unaccountable for any and all actions, etc.).

Think of it like getting a pet. I will never have another pet unless I will raise it from a kitten or puppy. That way, the pet will only know ME and how I expect it to act. If I get a pet from the pound or somewhere else, it's already learned how to interact with humans. Someone might have thought it was cute if the animal ate off of the same plate that they did, or that it was neat to have a dog jumping up on them when they got home. Those behaviors are not behaviors I want, so I'd have to jack around with retraining the animal. That animal may never learn the correct behaviors!

Unfortunately, women have many AFC "owners" before us, so, they have a lot of "bad training" (not to mention media training). The only way to have a "perfect" woman would be to have an arranged marriage and grow up together, or, raise a woman from a baby yourself. That shît would NEVER happen in western culture, so we have to work with the best we get.

I've come to the same conclusion you have. You have to train them to be the way you want them to be. Never put yourself in a position of weakness or vulnerability- they'll simply exploit it and walk all over you. YOu have to be in charge and they have to fear that you'll walk away at any time if they don't treat you right.

Sadly, this is the only way you can get a women to respect you in this day and age- fear of losing you. Once that's gone- it's open season and they'll treat you like a disposable turd (even if you're amazing, they'll eventually take you for granted if they think you'll never leave- sadly enough). So- no marriage.

I know I'm painting with broad strokes here, but sometimes the weight of these realizations is oppressive. I really want to believe in mutual partnership; in EQUITABLE monogamy, but I find it increasingly difficult to ignore the evidence.

That's how I went into my marriage- and I was given firsthand expirence with a very important lesson: Manage women or they will manage you!

 

[MR_PERFECT]

Hell, I look back at all my relationships of the past and am left with some pretty negative conclusions:

I'm a walking dildo.
I'm half the month's rent.
I'm half of the chores.
I'm half of the errands completed.

...and that's about it. It's hard not to feel like a tool.

Well written. Very funny!

Sadly, this is the only way you can get a women to respect you in this day and age- fear of losing you. Once that's gone- it's open season and they'll treat you like a disposable turd (even if you're amazing, they'll eventually take you for granted if they think you'll never leave- sadly enough). So- no marriage.

Do you know what I hate about the above statement and every negative comment I read on here? It sounds bleak, but I'm old enough to know it's true. I miss my early 20s, when I had those "AFC" feelings and love excited me. Now I feel like I'm involved in ongoing business negotiations that could fall apart any moment.

 

[Colossus]

Keep these notions in mind, as a realist, not as a cynic.

It's important to understand your adversary. But people aren't all bad. If you dwell too much in cynicism, and always expect the worst in people, you won't be any happier than if you are a naive optimist who gets dikked over all the time.

And consider yourself lucky that you understand these things - a lot of men don't. You stand a good chance of living life the way YOU want to, and not under HER rules.

It's kind of like understanding scientific explanations for life - they take away the "romance" of religious explanations, but that doesn't make life any less beautiful, does it?

Sometimes awareness is both a privilege and a burden--you start to see relationships, short and long-term, as negotiations and chess matches rather than enrichments.

I think most of us here are just guys who have taken a step back and asked WHY these things happen, and WHY women behave as they do. We are not some secret society with exclusive access to the mysteries of women--we just take a step above the fantasy clouds most men live under.

It's like learning the secret to a magic trick: once you know how it's done, the magic goes away. The secret, once known, is usually rather obvious and logical. The magic lies in being fooled.

 

[TheHumanist]

It sounds bleak, but I'm old enough to know it's true. I miss my early 20s, when I had those "AFC" feelings and love excited me. Now I feel like I'm involved in ongoing business negotiations that could fall apart any moment.

This is the area I guess this is why the requirement is 25, but let the young man ask.

Sometimes awareness is both a privilege and a burden--you start to see relationships, short and long-term, as negotiations and chess matches rather than enrichments.

I think most of us here are just guys who have taken a step back and asked WHY these things happen, and WHY women behave as they do. We are not some secret society with exclusive access to the mysteries of women--we just take a step above the fantasy clouds most men live under.

It's like learning the secret to a magic trick: once you know how it's done, the magic goes away. The secret, once known, is usually rather obvious and logical. The magic lies in being fooled.

Is any hope? Is relationships just a bunch of powerplays, is there any place of the idea of an effort of cooperation? Is it just American culture and feminism corruption or is our core selves that bleak? Is it just people and specifically women with bad characters and integrity or it is worse? Are there more now than then?


I guess I am too young atm and if I come back a decade from now I may very well agree with you. However, assessing the current situation and my past experiences, reading these things always make me wonder why am I not feeling and seeing the same bleakness as everyone else. I can't be a DJ or living well if I'm still closing my eyes. I wondering if my friends will fall into the same trap (ironically, a bunch just had a large discussion on marriage and also very pessimistic). I wonder if my female friends are only seeing men as tools rather than people. I wonder if the girl I have only see me as that, though right now she shows no signs.

One thing for sure, when I'm at your age and older, I hope I somehow manage to avoid finding myself at the same point as you are. I don't have those "AFC" thinking/feelings and feel super excited about love right now, but surely don't want to see the girl sitting next to me as a tool only for sex and me as a tool doing half the stuff and so on.

 

[Interceptor]

Humanist, please read your signature quote.
If most people can agree that we attract people and are attracted to people who have the same qualities as us, dont you think it's possible that it's not just them who have 'issues'?
Also, if you surround yourself with these types of women, and BLAME THEM, its easy to assume that EVERY woman on the planet is EXACTLY the SAME as these low quality women.
And that IMO is an error.
Secondly, even when/if there is a 'pattern', it cannot PROVE that EVERY SINGLE person falls into the EXACT same pattern. So, therefore, no CONCLUSION can EVER be finalized or arrived to. To think so is delusional.

When we arent sure of our own boundaries, we tend to blame the environment for our mistakes in judgement and any offenses we may perceive. When we doubt our judgement, we often look outside for validaton and confirmation. And often, in order to feel 'safe' , we tend to promote and propogate our personal beliefs as indistputable FACTS. So, the belief is often that if we can get enough people 'on our side', believing whatever particular belief we have, we will have 'proved' that it IS true. ie "See? They agree with me. Therefore, I AM right. It is TRUE without a shadow of a doubt.Why? Because they BELIEVE me."

Think of the notion of 'safety in numbers'.
Imagine you really DO recognize you have an irrational belief ie. 2+2=5, and you promote it massively, eventually you just may have enough 'followers' to 'believe' you speak the truth. So technically, you would feel safe now, that so many people believe this same irrational belief as you do. Now it feels justified to you. Therefore, now it's REAL.
When at the end of the day it's bullsh*t.


And when we beging to doubt our own judgement, it scares us so much that we begin to point fingers to the external.
Instead we could just be grown men and look inside for the answers.
This is why you see certain 'methods' used to 'protect' men from being taken advantage of. Because they have trouble looking inside for the 'blame' and instead just place it squarely on the person or the environment, rather than themselves.
Because it appears that it is simply easier and better to LOOK like you are assertive and non reactive and use false actions and behavior (the persona is often that which we are NOT actually. When you see someone who appears 'confident' under pressure, yet feel extremely anxious and insecure in other circumstances, you can see their real character and emotional maturity level. They're acting. So in order to cope, they put on a false persona to act for them and pretend and appear to be a confident person, or it can be a funny person, or sexual person, etc. We often assume the persona that is in opposite to who we really are inside.) than simply do the work and eventually BE the confident, assertive man, who has strong boundaries. You see the multitude of 'conclusions' and methods. All used to hide men from looking inside and seeing the holes in their boundaries.

 

[MR_PERFECT]

One thing for sure, when I'm at your age and older, I hope I somehow manage to avoid finding myself at the same point as you are. I don't have those "AFC" thinking/feelings and feel super excited about love right now, but surely don't want to see the girl sitting next to me as a tool only for sex and me as a tool doing half the stuff and so on.

Most men can't help it. I have a friend that's good-looking and does well with women. He was in a relationship for years with a woman he thought he would marry. A few days after confessing her love and saying she wanted to marry him, she left him for another guy.

That's why everyone revered Anti-Dump on here, he always said protect the heart. Do you know why? Heartbreak is physiologically the toughest thing you will have to overcome. I don't mean you kinda liked a girl, I mean true heartbreak.

 

[STR8UP]

Sometimes I think the only reason women get into relationships is to ensure a reliable source of security and attention. Do you really think they give a fvck about YOU...or just what you can provide for them?

I've been saying this for awhile now. Women don't love YOU. They love the chemical rush you provide them, they love the feeling of security and provisioning that you mentioned, but they don't love YOU. All you have to do is watch how a woman has no problem with throwing you away like a used tampon once she grabs her next source of emotional satisfaction and security.

Men are the ones who tend to hold an emotional bond that isn't easy to sever.

Alternatively it could be argued that men dont care much for women so long as she is attractive, tolerable, and provides him with a steady flow of pvssy. Is this an even trade?

It comes down to the fact that men are much more sincere in their intentions. If a woman meets his criteria he is happy to settle into a comfort zone (which is usually the death of the relationship) while the woman is constantly looking around for the BBD.

I keep getting the sense that women are innately disingenuous when going about realtionships. All they want to do is manipluate you with subtle modalities until they have secured their provisioner to a point where he cant just walk out the door without serious consequences.

As joekerr stated awhile back.....the weaker sex must be the manipulative sex out of necessity. Men can get what they want via physical force; women get what they want through manipulating men to provide for their needs. The passive sex will always be the sex that has to use these tactics to get what they want.

I know I'm painting with broad strokes here, but sometimes the weight of these realizations is oppressive. I really want to believe in mutual partnership; in EQUITABLE monogamy, but I find it increasingly difficult to ignore the evidence.

Here's what I think.

You have to take a relationship for what it is.

And what is that?

It is a mutually beneficial arrangement that is nonetheless based upon an adversarial relationship. In other words (and most people don't like to hear this), but men and women have opposing agendas. It HAS to be adversarial. The woman is the "enemy". You make peace with the enemy to gain a mutual benefit, but make no mistake about it.....the undercurrent is ALWAYS cut-throat. And even more so from the women's side, as you have pointed out with this thread.

So the trick is to realize that this is what is happening, and realize that no matter how much you think she loves you or you love her, chances are good that the sh!t is going to hit the fan eventually, so you have to keep your emotions in check and learn to roll with the punches, because the vast, vast majority of relationship end in failure.

In other words, enjoy it while it lasts, but don't ever get it in your head that it will last forever.

Sometimes awareness is both a privilege and a burden--you start to see relationships, short and long-term, as negotiations and chess matches rather than enrichments.

Exactly. Ignorance is bliss. Once you take a peek behind the curtain it is VERY difficult to be "optimistic" about relationships, and people in general.

I think the ideal situation is to be a natural at all of this, to the point where you never seek to break it down revealing the unpleasant truth.

 

[Interceptor]

Is 'difficult' the same thing as 'impossible'?

 

[RedPill]

Strategies for ensuring you won't become commoditized by women:

1) Don't get into an LTR with a woman who has expectations of a traditional, middle-class, AFC marriage & lifestyle.

2) Build your value to the point where a convenient side effect of your highly evolved lifestyle is that you have buyer's power in just about any relationship you would choose to engage in with a woman.

3) Don't even consider having children unless you reach the point financially at which the cost of raising a child is not a concern.

4) Be very selective about the women you choose to let into your life. If you don't enjoy them, they shouldn't be there. They ought to align with your values and the world you're creating.

5) Completely disregard the subtle shaming and AFC expectations of others.

 

[TheHumanist]

Pure sh1t right here.
I can think of a few tougher things. Dont believe me? come to work with me.

I wouldn't call it pure ****, it still sucks... I guess death, torture, witness to genocide would be worse, but sucks still sucks and thus wanted to avoid it.

It is a mutually beneficial arrangement that is nonetheless based upon an adversarial relationship. In other words (and most people don't like to hear this), but men and women have opposing agendas. It HAS to be adversarial. The woman is the "enemy". You make peace with the enemy to gain a mutual benefit, but make no mistake about it.....the undercurrent is ALWAYS cut-throat. And even more so from the women's side, as you have pointed out with this thread.

You're right, if I am to accept it is true, I don't like it, not at all. If I understand you from your past posts, you don't like it either. However, from my limited experience, I doubt yours is the truth.

I hold doubt that it is such adversarial, though I remember learning from college on evolution of the theory of the "game of chicken" which have adversarial elements, but I like to think we are more than just those driving instincts and I think you weren't talking about that anyway. What I'm saying from my experiences, women do wish for a close bond like men. Just that some have also grown a view of only seeing usefulness in people (men and women) rather than any appreciation for their existence.

Perhaps partly for it is harsh, perhaps partly for I'm still young, but hopefully also because my experiences at this point and observation of my peers have yielded examples that it can be cooperative and it is not a natural state which means only the most disciplined can fend it off.

I hold to observations and theory that it is a product of today's culture than human nature. I think to think that it is possible the world could be like the book Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer, part of the book idea was to make an "archtype" of every type of men and women of the world. One of the tales was by the character "The Wife of Bath." Reading her tale, it is a tale I noticed not too far from many modern day woman. Seeing men as tools rather than people, giving no mercy once their place is over, using manipulation to get all kinds of items while giving them what they want the most on her terms and all in the name of survival. It's a good read, and very interesting to note also this was written during the 14th century. I would like to think it is possible that the world have produce more of the "Wife of Bath" type more than ever, but that also means there are still other women of other types too, or so I hope as well with the people around me.

At the very least, I hold hope that there are many types of people, this includes those who cooperates and those who competes. Obviously, we wish for one who cooperates.

So the trick is to realize that this is what is happening, and realize that no matter how much you think she loves you or you love her, chances are good that the sh!t is going to hit the fan eventually, so you have to keep your emotions in check and learn to roll with the punches, because the vast, vast majority of relationship end in failure.

In other words, enjoy it while it lasts, but don't ever get it in your head that it will last forever.

I understand the idea of live in the moment. I recognize with the odds against with the dynamic stage in my life, it is foolish to think the person I am with can last, and so I enjoy as best I could of her company, and only hope it can survive somehow. However, I sense that this advice has an element of "it's all fake" (can't think of better word), that I also disagree. I can hold hope that my current positive experiences can continue its current course. May someone help me avoid come to where you are when I'm at your age.

 

[Colossus]

Some good responses all around.

A few things I want to add:

Keep in mind this is more reflective of my perspective at the moment than it is my overall outlook on life. However, when I take inventory of all my past relationships and the experiences I have had and witnessed in people close to me, this is more often than not the conclusion I arrive at.

I know it's delusional to look at EVERY case with the same perspective simply because other people's experiences have corroborated your own, but there is truth in patterns. Once you recognize this it becomes much easier (maybe too easy?) to spot it in other situations.

Strategies for ensuring you won't become commoditized by women:

2) Build your value to the point where a convenient side effect of your highly evolved lifestyle is that you have buyer's power in just about any relationship you would choose to engage in with a woman.

I cant disagree with this, but I think this can take a long time for some. I guess I cant see myself being in that position for a while because of where I'm at with my career, etc. It's hard for the perpetual student to have buying power. Many women I meet already have their Master's, etc and are working professionals who own property. I'm a poor junior scientist who rents. Sure, I might be smart and good-looking, but when I take stock of what I can actually bring to the table I don't feel like I have a lot of leverage, other than the ability to walk away. Which anyone can do.

Maybe you could expand on this.

 

[STR8UP]

Is 'difficult' the same thing as 'impossible'?

Not the same thing, but sometimes it seems that way.

You're right, if I am to accept it is true, I don't like it, not at all. If I understand you from your past posts, you don't like it either. However, from my limited experience, I doubt yours is the truth.

I hold doubt that it is such adversarial, though I remember learning from college on evolution of the theory of the "game of chicken" which have adversarial elements, but I like to think we are more than just those driving instincts and I think you weren't talking about that anyway. What I'm saying from my experiences, women do wish for a close bond like men. Just that some have also grown a view of only seeing usefulness in people (men and women) rather than any appreciation for their existence.

Perhaps partly for it is harsh, perhaps partly for I'm still young, but hopefully also because my experiences at this point and observation of my peers have yielded examples that it can be cooperative and it is not a natural state which means only the most disciplined can fend it off.

Look at it this way.

I just started a new business. This business is based upon a few products that I created that I saw a niche for, and also on my reputation and knowledge as being an "expert" in a certain field.

This was all established through another message board and website that is owned by another person. I have attended three conventions that this person hosted (one was actually held at my condo) so I have developed a friendly relationship with him, and it has given me an opportunity to advertise my products for FREE based upon my credibility in the community and my relationship with the owner of the site.

I have several ideas for my business that would benefit me, but I have to be very careful not to tarnish the relationship I have with this other person by being reckless and stepping on toes in the process.

In other words, I consider this person to be a friend, but I have my own best interests in mind. I'm smart enough to know that it would be wise for me to be mindful of the MUTUAL BENEFITS we could share by working together, so I am careful about how I proceed.

With women, it's the same kind of thing. You can befriend them, you can have trust in them, you can share things with each other for MUTUAL BENEFIT, but when it comes down to it she is looking to survive and reproduce, and so are you. So you come together with a common goal.

The problem with women (and men too, but especially women these days) is that there is so little "investment" in the other person. This changes of course when you have children (that's why so many people stay UNhappily married), but it is SOOOOO easy for a woman to jump ship when things aren't going her way, because if she's young enough and halfway good looking there will always be a line of guys just waiting to take your place, regardless of whether or not she's a shopaholic, a true golddigger, or a raging bi-polar b!tch. You, as a man, are expendable to most women.

I understand the idea of live in the moment. I recognize with the odds against with the dynamic stage in my life, it is foolish to think the person I am with can last, and so I enjoy as best I could of her company, and only hope it can survive somehow. However, I sense that this advice has an element of "it's all fake" (can't think of better word), that I also disagree. I can hold hope that my current positive experiences can continue its current course. May someone help me avoid come to where you are when I'm at your age.

9 out of 10 guys your age think like you do. 9 out of 10 guys my age think similar to me. I used to think like you do. You have to live a little in business, relationships, and life in general to be able to formulate your own conclusions, but lets just say that won't happen until you have a few more years behind you. No matter what you WILL see the world differently in 10-15 years.

 

[STR8UP]

I don't really consider family relationships (especially parent, most of the time anyway) to be adversarial, as they have a vested interest in your survival since you carry their genes.

It's been proven scientifically that the more genetically you have in common with someone, the more likely you are to help that person in an "unselfish" manner.

I look at my parents and know that they would do pretty much anything for me. I look at my siblings and know that they would do a lot to help me if I ever need it. I look at my close friends and know that if I needed to get bailed out of jail and they could afford it they would likely oblige. I can generally trust them enough that they wouldn't steal from me. Acquaintances I keep at arms length.

Women? When I see a woman I see someone who has little vested interest in me beyond what I am able to provide for her in that moment. Sure, she might say "I love you" and cuddle up to you at night and make you breakfast in the morning, but make no mistake.....much of what she says and does is simply part of the mating ritual. When it comes down to it "I love you" is nothing but cheap talk.

This whole idea of romantic "love" as most people know it is nothing but a fairy tale. You know how many times I have heard that from a chick who has turned around and ripped my heart out and called ME an ass hole? Yea, sure, you really loved me, didn't you?

Bottom line is that men are expendable to women,. Doesn't mean that you can't find a decent woman who will end up sticking by your side through thick and thin, but the problem is you never know until you've gone through some of the "thin". And sometimes that only happens years after you have invested in her.

 

[TheHumanist]

I love this thread...it's getting me thinking.

When you break it down, all of your relationships are adversarial. Your girlfriend, your guy friends, even your parents. It's all based on the balance between your interests and theirs...so you can live harmoniously.

Think about international diplomacy. Every country has its own interests. Some are in wide agreement (like the US and the UK) and get along great most of the time. Some countries have a hot-cold relationship (the US and France). Some countries are polar enemies (US and North Korea).

You're going to meet some Englands and Canadas, and some Frances and Russias...and once in a while a North Korea or an Iran. Your job is to recognize common ground and weed out the women who don't share enough of your interests.

You'll still be looking out for #1, as you should. Just don't get caught up in giving your hard earned $$ to an Iran-type for her oil. You'll be screwed!

I thought this a long time ago and very commonly now too! I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought of that. Friendships, acquaintances, and relationships all seem to have that element of diplomacy, some very cooperative and close and other time very adversial. Other times self-interests is at play and other the actions seem to be completely random. Some are very power empires and others are tiny and meek poor nations.

9 out of 10 guys your age think like you do. 9 out of 10 guys my age think similar to me. I used to think like you do. You have to live a little in business, relationships, and life in general to be able to formulate your own conclusions, but lets just say that won't happen until you have a few more years behind you. No matter what you WILL see the world differently in 10-15 years.

I'm pretty sure I will see the world differently in 10-15 years, I hope that whatever I will see, it would be positive. As is said a lot here about DJs, part of being one is not being just the ordinary mediocre man. We are here to see clearer than the fellow man, but also to use it to gain the best fate as possible. Many young optimistic idealists do grow to much different viewpoint, but not everyone seem to grow to the most negative at all.

There are some people who seem to defy the numbers. One of the people I look up most to is Randy Pausch and while he understand human nature, it seems he have a much more positive view on humanity. One acclaim book Tuesdays with Morrie had a man who was much more idealistic. In this forum there are many successful people and from the best I can tell, don't didn't have to conclude to view people and women as dark. More closer to home, I can think of a good number of people who seem to doing very well, though many others I guess have a much harder like and those farther still seem to be having a very hard time.

I can only hope whatever may come, to be honest, I hope to be more like Randy Pausch making every moment as fun as possible with a much more positive view of the world than what you found (minus the cancer). No offense.

 

[Interceptor]

Strategies for ensuring you won't become commoditized by women:

1) Don't get into an LTR with a woman who has expectations of a traditional, middle-class, AFC marriage & lifestyle.

2) Build your value to the point where a convenient side effect of your highly evolved lifestyle is that you have buyer's power in just about any relationship you would choose to engage in with a woman.

3) Don't even consider having children unless you reach the point financially at which the cost of raising a child is not a concern.

4) Be very selective about the women you choose to let into your life. If you don't enjoy them, they shouldn't be there. They ought to align with your values and the world you're creating.

5) Completely disregard the subtle shaming and AFC expectations of others.

But , RP....why...why...this is DIFFICULT!!!! Too difficult!!!

Why...that would mean I would have to exercise good judgement and trust myself and not blame the women!!!
I...I...can't do that!!! Are you crazy?! It's difficult!
It would make me responsible, Goddamnit!!!
How can I live in denial and be nice, and safe and be able to 'check out' by blaming others if I do this???!!!

 

[ketostix]

I don't really consider family relationships (especially parent, most of the time anyway) to be adversarial, as they have a vested interest in your survival since you carry their genes.

It's been proven scientifically that the more genetically you have in common with someone, the more likely you are to help that person in an "unselfish" manner.

I look at my parents and know that they would do pretty much anything for me. I look at my siblings and know that they would do a lot to help me if I ever need it. I look at my close friends and know that if I needed to get bailed out of jail and they could afford it they would likely oblige. I can generally trust them enough that they wouldn't steal from me. Acquaintances I keep at arms length.

Women? When I see a woman I see someone who has little vested interest in me beyond what I am able to provide for her in that moment. Sure, she might say "I love you" and cuddle up to you at night and make you breakfast in the morning, but make no mistake.....much of what she says and does is simply part of the mating ritual. When it comes down to it "I love you" is nothing but cheap talk.

This whole idea of romantic "love" as most people know it is nothing but a fairy tale. You know how many times I have heard that from a chick who has turned around and ripped my heart out and called ME an ass hole? Yea, sure, you really loved me, didn't you?

Bottom line is that men are expendable to women,. Doesn't mean that you can't find a decent woman who will end up sticking by your side through thick and thin, but the problem is you never know until you've gone through some of the "thin". And sometimes that only happens years after you have invested in her.

I'm in total agreement. There's familial love like the bond between a mother and child and then there's romantic love. For women, the latter is an opportunistic/adversarial and temperol relationship. Whereas for men there's not quite as much a divide between the two.

 

[RedPill]

I cant disagree with this, but I think this can take a long time for some. I guess I cant see myself being in that position for a while because of where I'm at with my career, etc. It's hard for the perpetual student to have buying power. Many women I meet already have their Master's, etc and are working professionals who own property. I'm a poor junior scientist who rents. Sure, I might be smart and good-looking, but when I take stock of what I can actually bring to the table I don't feel like I have a lot of leverage, other than the ability to walk away. Which anyone can do.

Maybe you could expand on this.

'Buyer's power' is not necessarily a direct reflection of financial capability, though that's usually a component of it. The term 'seller's power' could just as easily be substituted here, though I think buyer's power makes more sense as more often than not a man of value is the one actively selecting the woman as a suitable candidate for a relationship. Either way you slice it, the fundamental concept is the power of choice; the power to be selective.

In order to avoid becoming a simple commodity in the eyes of women, one must command enough sexual value as to have a distinct competitive advantage over other men in the marketplace. This all goes back to the various threads on the subject of authentic value vs. projected value. Prize mentality and the projection of value will help get one laid, but won't put one in a position where their value alone creates competitive anxiety within the chick.

If she would have a difficult time replacing you with a partner of similar value, you're no longer a commodity to her. You're no longer a c0ck and a wallet and the repairman in her world, but an asset that she is damn fortunate to have secured. My suggestion here is that a sound strategy for de-commoditizing one's self with women is to increase one's sexual value to the point where their mere existence authenticates their power of selectivity and reinforces it with women.

As far as having more potential value than actualized value, consider that all the more reason to avoid monogamy at this stage in your life. Not that monogamy is even necessarily such a horrible thing, but one of the most self-limiting things that I see other guys my age do is get into an LTR where the unspoken expectation is that provisioning and an AFC marriage is the goal of the relationship. The whole relationship is premised on the man's ability to hurry up and get established with his career so that the domestication process can begin. To me, and to any other man who seeks a life which isn't inspired by AFC ideals, this is a scenario that can easily be avoided if one isn't complacent in their mentality.

 

[DJDamage]

Pook once said that he thinks that the typical North American relationship is basically this: Man loves woman, woman loves herself.

He was right.

Now I feel like I'm involved in ongoing business negotiations that could fall apart any moment.

Haha its true. Going into a relationship is like becoming an investement stock broker. You are better off keeping on buying and selling those stocks rather then holding on to one good stock for the long haul. Most stocks eventually lose their values and if you have all your investments in one stock you are doomed.

It is why short term relationships are beneficial to men and why long term relationships are more beneficial to women.

It is a mutually beneficial arrangement that is nonetheless based upon an adversarial relationship. In other words (and most people don't like to hear this), but men and women have opposing agendas. It HAS to be adversarial. The woman is the "enemy". You make peace with the enemy to gain a mutual benefit, but make no mistake about it.....the undercurrent is ALWAYS cut-throat. And even more so from the women's side, as you have pointed out with this thread.

I don't look at it as adversarial, more like a symbiotic relationship, in which one of the outcome's could be adversarial. There are 3 catagories for a symbiotic relatioship:

1) Mutulistic - Both Men and Women benefit from this relationship. Each one has a personal reason to be in this relationship and in order to get what they want they often have to please the other so they can be pleased in return. This is the ideal HIGH INTEREST relationship, which has its ups and downs and long term challenges.

2) Parasitic - This is the relationship where one person benefits while the other is being harmed. This is a LOW INTEREST relationship where the woman is essentially looking only to benefit herself and in the process ruin the man (think bad marriage that ends in divorce).

3) Commensal - A relationship in which one benefit's while the other doesn't significantly harmed or helped. This relationship again brings me back to what I said before. Men benefit more on the short terms and women benefit more on the long terms.