2nd date/last chance

[fluffylad]

I'm looking for any advice for my second date with a great woman.

For a little context, I'm 36 and the woman I saw last week is 34. We essentially want the same things in both life and in a relationship, and I'm very attracted to her.

The date itself was just "OK" from an objective perspective. There were no awkward pauses, stalls, or major ****ups. We had good rapour, had some laughs and I landed a few jokes. The biggest issue I had with myself is that I was simply too 'hands off' with her. She took my arm when I offered it, I held the small of her back for a short time, but I guess the setting didn't allow for much more than that (our seats were back against a pillar, leaving more room between us than I would have liked). A more confident guy would have done better, certainly, and I feel if I don't push things more the next time, I will be friendzoned or she will simply ghost me.

She's a reserved girl, just like I'm a reserved guy, and she either kept the hints that she wanted something more to herself entirely, or I missed the signals. Generally speaking, I read people pretty well. She was very receptive to me, kept eye contact, kept the conversation going herself, smiled a lot, laughed a lot, but I didn't receive (I believe, anyway) any overt flirting from her (I do know that she wants a man to lead; perhaps she expected it all to come from me). Again, either I missed it, or it wasn't there. Still, she readily agreed to a second date at the end of the night. It seemed perplexing to me, if she wasn't attracted to me or was disappointed in my conservative approach, that she would do that if wasn't interested in something more. Sure, maybe you could argue she just didn't want to let me down to my face, but she has been receptive to my texts since then.

It's why I believe it's a last chance for me with her: Either she thinks I have potential and is giving me another chance to prove myself, or she wasn't as disappointed at how it went as I thought she was.

This time around, I'm trying to try to do something more kinetic before we head off to dinner. I was thinking either pool or darts, and I need some hints on how to push things with her in these settings (but bear in mind, I don't think any overtly sleazy things will work here; she's a sensitive, reserved girl). I have a few suggestive things I want to say to hopefully signal my intentions, but are there other things you guys could think of? Playful games within a game, perhaps. A bet or two? I'm cr*p when it comes to this stuff.

After the games, I'm hoping to lead with some momentum into dinner. Even though the restaurant I picked is very nice, if there isn't some form of momentum leading into it, all might be lost. Perhaps the flippant viewpoint here is, 'Who cares? Plenty of other fish in the sea'. Well, no. My options are quite limited, and I'm no pro dater or hugely confident guy who can just find one who wants the same things I do every other day. I've been on dating apps for 6 months, and this is the first date I was able to land that I thought would be worthwhile.

Any hints about how to deepen the conversation during dinner would also be much appreciated.

Thanks legends.

 

[SW15]

I'm trying to try to do something more kinetic before we head off to dinner

No dinner dates in restaurants prior to sex. Dinner dates are not good for physical escalation and creating a sexual vibe.

The biggest issue I had with myself is that I was simply too 'hands off' with her.

You probably didn't flirt well, lead the interaction, and likely fuccked up the logistics by selecting some bad type date like dinner in a restaurant or coffee. The only time you might be able to get away with a dinner date as a frist date is if you're meeting a woman through a social circle connection. You can't expect to do well on a first date, dinner date with someone from a swipe app or some random stranger you approached in the real world.

She's probably thinking she had a nice time with you but didn't feel much of a connection because you didn't give her "all the feelz" on the first date. The majority of Millennial women would flake on a guy like that.

I'd be surprised if she actually showed up for a second date. Plenty of Millennial women are non-confrontational in-person but flake via text message away from you.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Can the dinner date...you come across as another boring, lame dude with no originality. You put yourself into a group that you don't want to be a part of.

Second, you know next to nothing about this woman, chill out. She may be great, but most likely if things turn out well in a year or so you probably will have different thoughts about her. Stop attributing all these great attributes she doesn't necessarily have that you have willingly bestowed upon her.

If you end up losing her it will most likely be because you have put her on a giant pedestal and are hurting your neck trying to look up at her from the ground.

Why is she reserved? Probably because you are acting the same way as you are on her unknowingly and behaving like a little puppy dog around her.

 

[CyrusTheGreat]

Well, no. My options are quite limited, and I'm no pro dater or hugely confident guy who can just find one who wants the same things I do every other day.

You have too much investment on this girl, after just one date. The scarcity doesn't justify your thinking.

In my experience, in dating, it is often not you, it's them. I know many examples, here is one:

I know this chick, who think she is a friend of mine (I don't consider her a friend however) who shares the details (sometimes too much details) of her life with me. For a whole year, she was going on dates with men she met online, just to turn them down after a few dates. Why? Because during this whole time, she was obsessed with this guy, whom I'm gonna call Chad, who didn't give a damn about her. This Chad guys is neither successful nor handsome. He has nothing. But for some reason she could not take her mind off of him.

The guys she met online, some of them were funny, some were rich, some were athletic, some took her to fun dates, some too her to expensive dates, and so on... A few of those guys even called her and begged her for another chance.

But it didn't f*cking matter, she was just obsessed with Chad. There was nothing those guys could do to win her over. Imagine what went on in those guys' minds about why she is not interested, or what the should do better to win her (probably the same thing that is going on in your mind). A few months ago, she had a conversation with Chad confessing her love to him. In the conversation, she realised this Chad is a looser f-boy, which made her sad, but helped her get over him. After a month she got back on the apps, and "fell in love" with the first guy she met online. Now what did this guy do right? Probably not much, he just didn't match with her, when she was "crushing" over Chad.​

​

This (or many other scenarios) could be the situation that you're in. This is why the scarcity that you're in doesn't justify your thinking.

What you can do? Ask her out, have a plan, and try the basic flirting, touching, blah blah. If it works, good; otherwise let her go.

 

[Manure Spherian]

You don’t have to do anything special if you both actually like each other, but I think you should attempt some touching or kissing. This isn’t advice though, just something I think for making intentions known.

You also don’t have to go through some particular order of things (sex before X, or X before sex). My wife and I BOTH held off sex for several months after meeting; I think three or four. I had my reasons for doing so. And I got to sex in one to three dates with women before my wife.

 

[CyrusTheGreat]

The only time you might be able to get away with a dinner date as a frist date is if you're meeting a woman through a social circle connection. You can't expect to do well on a first date, dinner date with someone from a swipe app or some random stranger you approached in the real world.

Wrong, I usually went for a coffee first date, which is just a short sniff test, and a dinner second date, which should probably be considered the first date. Worked fine (those who passed the sniff test, around 50% of them ended up in my bed)

She's probably thinking she had a nice time with you but didn't feel much of a connection because you didn't give her "all the feelz" on the first date. The majority of Millennial women would flake on a guy like that.

True. It should be added that she may not be feeling all the feelz because of other things, not necessarily something you did.

I'd be surprised if she actually showed up for a second date. Plenty of Millennial women are non-confrontational in-person but flake via text message away from you.

True!

 

[BackInTheGame78]

Wrong, I usually went for a coffee first date, which is just a short sniff test, and a dinner second date, which should probably be considered the first date. Worked fine (those who passed the sniff test, around 50% of them ended up in my bed)


True. It should be added that she may not be feeling all the feelz because of other things, not necessarily something you did.


True!

Ehh...dinner dates are a waste of time prior to sex...expensive, unneeded and boring with way too many opportunities for the energy to be sucked out of the date turning a potentially good ending into a blah ending...

IMO, this will do more to screw you out of getting laid than just about anything else.

 

[CyrusTheGreat]

Ehh...dinner dates are a waste of time prior to sex...expensive, unneeded and boring with way too many opportunities for the energy to be sucked out of the date turning a potentially good ending into a blah ending...

IMO, this will do more to screw you out of getting laid than just about anything else.

This is scarcity mindset at play. You are there to entertain yourself, not her. You wanna have dinner, you do dinner. You wanna drink, you do drinks.

If you change yourself, you will get the wrong woman.

Also, I'm not sure where you guys go for dinner, I usually wrap up the dinner dates under $50. And half the time they offer to split the bill, which I respond with "are you sure?" and then they have to pay their share. Statistically, them paying the bill didn't change the outcome of the night.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

This is scarcity mindset at play. You are there to entertain yourself, not her. You wanna have dinner, you do dinner. You wanna drink, you do drinks.

If you change yourself, you will get the wrong woman.

Also, I'm not sure where you guys go for dinner, I usually wrap up the dinner dates under $50. And half the time they offer to split the bill, which I respond with "are you sure?" and then they have to pay their share. Statistically, them paying the bill didn't change the outcome of the night.

I don't WANT to spend hours wasting time doing nothing other than spending money, making your breath stink and getting food stuck in your teeth.

I can do way better than that for a second date.

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

Do as you please; do as per your normal. If you normally go out to dinner there is nothing wrong with having a woman join you, but it needs to be congruent with your lifestyle.

I go out to upscale venues as a matter of course and I’ve done so for years. Not surprisingly I meet people who similarly go out to upscale venues as a lifestyle thing. My best girlfriend grew up in a country club community, married her first husband and they lived in a country club community and her current fiancé is a scratch golfer and they have homes in 2 country club communities. It’s what she grew up around and has lived around all her life, she’s very pretty and a good golfer herself. They match.

If you are not accustomed to going out to dinner why would you suddenly do that to impress a woman? Do what you normally do and invite her along. Simple.

Don’t make things more difficult than they need to be.

 

[SW15]

Do as you please; do as per your normal. If you normally go out to dinner there is nothing wrong with having a woman join you, but it needs to be congruent with your lifestyle.

If you are not accustomed to going out to dinner why would you suddenly do that to impress a woman? Do what you normally do and invite her along. Simple.

It is less common for men to go out to dinner in the absence of dinner dates with women.

If men don't have a person to dine with, they might order takeout/delivery from sit down restaurants or get fast food/fast casual. Those are common choices for dining alone, as well as cooking at home for yourself. More people are eating more meals alone these days.

A Lot of People Are Eating Alone These Days

We love the idea of sitting down to a hot meal with family and friends, but increasingly, Americans are dining solo.

www.foodnetwork.com

Table For One: Why We Are Increasingly Eating Alone

The numbers around eating alone are nothing short of revelatory, and the reasons are complex and diverse, but one thing is clear: the shift to solitary dining has created new challenges and opportunities for food retailers and manufacturers.

www.forbes.com

Those articles are from 2015 and 2016. That trend hasn't changed but neither article mentioned a HUGE reason why more meals are being eaten alone. More people are single, not dating, and not in a position to eat with anyone. This has grown a lot in the last 15-20 years.

Some men do go to dinner with 1 or more of their male friends. That's more difficult to coordinate.

For a good portion of men, I do not think there's a lot of congruency with dinner dates as compared to their lifestyle in the absence of dates.

I go out to upscale venues as a matter of course and I’ve done so for years. Not surprisingly I meet people who similarly go out to upscale venues as a lifestyle thing. My best girlfriend grew up in a country club community, married her first husband and they lived in a country club community and her current fiancé is a scratch golfer and they have homes in 2 country club communities. It’s what she grew up around and has lived around all her life, she’s very pretty and a good golfer herself. They match.

Commonality has the ability to create couples.

 

[BeExcellent]

Statistics aside @SW15 what I say holds true. Men who have a social nature often go out alone to venues where they can converse with others.

Assuming of course they can afford it, which gets back to my qualification around lifestyle.

If a man is not able to easily afford going out alone? He cannot easily afford taking a woman out to dinner either. Meals at home or via takeout do NOT provide social interaction opportunities. So leaving the
house does have inherent advantages. If a man is going to eat anyway and can afford it? Why not put oneself in a social environment?

Assuming too of course that he is socially adroit.

That’s my larger point.

 

[Black Widow Void]

I see that this is your first posting. Welcome aboard my friend.

As an old-timer here, it's not surprising that some of the above responses... seem to resemble two men in a locker room attempting a 'measuring contest.' This isn't to say that some of the advise is bad, but you'll also note that none of them will admit to being in your shoes or explain why it occurs or how to avoid any anxiety. Truth is, they (and yep, self included) have all experienced a dry spell before.

Easier said than done, I realize... but you need to 'retrain' your mindset. If you approach this second date with too much thought and investment, this puts unnecessary pressure on yourself as well as your date... as well as the outcome. The second date hasn't occurred yet and always brace yourself that it might or might not occur. This not only helps if the rug is pulled out, but if it does occur, you arrive - knowing that you'll improve upon things. --- Since you've had a dry spell, it's better to view your date as "practice." Again, I'm sure easier said than done, but here's why. It's like taking a test and the teacher saying that your lowest grade will not count against you. You arrive more relaxed, less stressed and will surely do better. If this gal is viewed as "practice" then it'll take some of the edge off.

If you're on your way to the date and find your head in the clouds or feeling anxious, then before seeing your date, put on some negative "love gone bad" music. This can subconsciously reduce stress and lower any dopamine spikes. You will not arrive appearing gloomy, but instead more 'balanced.' If you drink, then toss one back beforehand, but be sure to pace yourself in her company. Never openly admit that you're nervous. You might feel it and think that openness and honesty is best, but you want to be coy and create some form of mystery. In other words, you want *her* to be thinking... "does he like me?" "should I have worn another dress?" etc...

I wouldn't try being c0cky or overly bold just yet. This will take practice to calibrate, but at the same time, try something more on the light side. Allow there to be some comfortable silence on your end. Let her feel slightly anxious. Most women have no problem filling up any empty conversation. This allows you to relax and you'll probably learn a few thing about her. Hopefully, she'll reveal her favorite type of movies. You tuck this knowledge away until the end of the evening.. "I don't live too far away, let's head to my place and watch _____ (insert appealing title) ." Never say "would you like to" ... instead you lead. She can say yes or no. Either way, play it cool as if you aren't thirsty.

As BeExcellent said, if you're accustomed to fine dining, then no crime committed. If you aren't then for future reference, such atmosphere isn't necessary. Meeting for coffee or drinks is acceptable these days. If you've previously discussed second date plans, then of course, you need to follow through as planed. You've given your word. There's an old saying..."those that look hungry are never fed." Do not attempt to be what you think she wants. Instead be the person that you'd be toward an ex that wants you, but that you can take or leave.

Good luck and keep us posted on the outcome.

 

[BoomToTheMoonAlice]

Go buy UNO Cards or OVERCOOKED on steam.

Darts are for obese drunks.

My wife and I screamed at each other so much on Overcooked that her boss said she never wants to come over again. [My wife is a real chef]

"GIVE ME THE FVCKING MEAT!"
"Wash the dishes first stupid!"
"I will after you give me the goddamn meat!"

It was a good time.

 

[SW15]

Can the dinner date...you come across as another boring, lame dude with no originality. You put yourself into a group that you don't want to be a part of.

Ehh...dinner dates are a waste of time prior to sex...expensive, unneeded and boring with way too many opportunities for the energy to be sucked out of the date turning a potentially good ending into a blah ending...

IMO, this will do more to screw you out of getting laid than just about anything else.

This is very good advice. There's a reason why we are in agreement about the idea of no dinner dates in restaurants prior to sex.

Dinner dates in restaurants in the earliest stages of dating are a very outdated concept in dating. There may have been a time where the dinner date in a restaurant first date/second date was a functional first date/second date. That time was more than 25 years ago.

The only time that a first date, dinner date could be acceptable is if the date is arranged from a strong social circle connection. Even with those types of interactions, an activity date is a better idea and likely more fun date. The social circle connection will clue a man into what could be a great common and fun activity for that first date.

Fewer men now are arranging dates from their social circles, a trend that dates all the way back to the 1990s. The more common ways now that people meet are through tech-based methods (mainly swipe apps and Instagram DMs) and men approaching unknown women somewhere in real life.

It's silly to take a virtual stranger to dinner. Dinner is expensive, boring, unoriginal, and doesn't set up a man well for flirting or physical escalation. Alcoholic drinks at bars where the man and woman sit side-by-side are far better for flirting and escalation as a default first date. An activity date can work as a first date in some cases where there's a strong commonality that is obvious in an initial 5-10 minute chat from an in-person approach. Rarely will be an activity date be obvious from interaction behind an electronic screen (swipe apps or DMs).

The most amazing thing is that we are still discussing dinner dates in 2023. I learned the rule of no dinner dates in restaurants prior to sex in the early 2010s and I wasn't on the forefront of learning that concept. That concept had probably been discussed online for at least 10 years prior to when I heard it, so it was likely a semi original idea in the 2000-2005 era.

In December 2016, there was an article on a mainstream website about the death of the dinner date. That was nearly 7 years ago at this point. The mainstream media is very blue pill and usually behind the times on trends in romantic interactions.

https://nypost.com/2016/12/29/millennials-are-killing-the-dinner-date/

As far back as 2014, women were complaining about the dinner date in prominent female mainstream media outlets.

Do Not Go To Dinner On The First Date

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT'S HOLY.

www.cosmopolitan.com

you know next to nothing about this woman, chill out. She may be great, but most likely if things turn out well in a year or so you probably will have different thoughts about her. Stop attributing all these great attributes she doesn't necessarily have that you have willingly bestowed upon her.

If you end up losing her it will most likely be because you have put her on a giant pedestal and are hurting your neck trying to look up at her from the ground.

I agree with this as well. Many men have a tendency to put women on a pedestal. They tend to overestimate the quality of one interaction. This reeks of scarcity mentality.

Men who have a social nature often go out alone to venues where they can converse with others.

Assuming too of course that he is socially adroit.

I would call this somewhat true. It depends on the man and the venue.

If a man goes out alone to a nightlife venue where socialization between strangers is expected, then it can be advantageous. While many sit down restaurants have bar areas, most of those are not very conducive to socialization. Almost no man going out alone to Chili's or Applebee's and sitting at their bar is going to find socialization opportunities with the opposite sex.

I have gone out alone to nightlife venues when I have been extremely horny and needing sexual options. I am more introverted than extroverted. I have enough social skill to start an interaction when going out to a nightlife venue, which is an asset. In the times I've gone out alone when horny, it was partially motivated by my no porn and no masturbation practice. Doing this practice will motivate a man to approach as a result of raised testosterone levels. This is a less typical practice for men today, as most men not getting laid will achieve a sexual release with internet porn and self-pleasure.

I found that going out to nightlife venues and approaching alone wasn't that big of a deal, though there are some challenges associated with it.

I acknowledge that it is more difficult to start up interactions at nightlife venues when a man is alone and a woman is at least in a group of 2-3, if not a larger group. Certain pickup artists in the past made the observation that women in groups larger than 3 are not serious about meeting men. My own observations in nightlife venues match that observation. If a man alone approaches a group of 2 or 3 in a nightlife venue, it is a more challenging approach than if he had 1 wingman with him. Additionally, being out at a nightlife venue alone can be a bit uncomfortable in between approaches when you don't have much to do and other people are talking within their own social groups to each other, especially women. Women do not go out to nightlife venues alone.

Even though I do not think going out alone is as big of a deal as some people think that is, I still don't recommend it. There are better uses of time. For men who want to approach alone, non-bar approaching is usually a better choice. Women are isolated and naturally alone in some of these settings, including the grocery store, gyms/fitness classes, coffee shops, bookstores, and sometimes outdoors. Outdoor approaching is the most difficult form of non-bar approaching out there, though it is absolutely free to do. Between dog walkers and earbuds, there's a reason why outdoor and street game is so difficult.

Roosh called street game the most difficult venue hands down back in 2012.

How To Pick Up Girls On The Street

Neither the paths of non-bar approaching nor the paths of nightlife venue approaching without a wingman could be considered easy paths. As an introvert, I find non-bar approaching a little bit easier than nightlife venue approaching alone.

 

[BeExcellent]

I think @Black Widow Void gave stellar advice in this thread. I think for OP his advice is golden.

I also agree that “those who look hungry are never fed.” If you @SW15 go out alone & horny & in need of physical gratification, I’m not surprised you struggle. You’ll put off a creepy vibe in that state & women will not gravitate to you. The stats and the sweeping generational generalizations don’t help either. I hope you don’t discuss that stuff with women in a seduction environment and reserve those lines of conversation for around here. Why? It’s terribly UNsexy.

Some friendly thoughts from someone who ultimately wants to see you succeed.

Cheers.

 

[SW15]

I also agree that “those who look hungry are never fed.” If you @SW15 go out alone & horny & in need of physical gratification, I’m not surprised you struggle. You’ll put off a creepy vibe in that state & women will not gravitate to you. The stats and the sweeping generational generalizations don’t help either. I hope you don’t discuss that stuff with women in a seduction environment and reserve those lines of conversation for around here. Why? It’s terribly UNsexy.

I never discuss statistics out on my approaches. My lifetime notch count is well above average for the typical male. That's good.

Most women and most blue pill, married males outside of the game don't understand how much effort it takes even for successful males like myself with a strong lifetime notch count.

I've rarely done nightlife alone but have done non-bar approach sessions alone. I've also placed myself in non-bar settings where I knew I could make approaches.

@Jesse Pinkman 's field reports thread was a look inside what happens with a seducer.

 

[BeExcellent]

Fair enough & just checking

 

[SW15]

Fair enough & just checking

Appreciate it.

I generally don't recommend going to nightlife venues alone. It can be done, it's more difficult than going to nightlife venues with at least one other male.

 

[pipeman84]

OP is coming from the wrong mindset, you've put her on a pedestal and you're trying to prove yourself to her ... please, like me, you're the first woman in 6 months who accepted to go out on a date with me, my options are limited, please, please.
Look at your language:

We had good rapour, had some laughs and I landed a few jokes.

What are you a clown, an entertainer?

It's why I believe it's a last chance for me with her: Either she thinks I have potential and is giving me another chance to prove myself, or she wasn't as disappointed at how it went as I thought she was.

You're also contradicting yourself by 1. repeating that she's a reserved and sensitive girl and 2. being sorry you weren't more tactile during 1st date and afraid that if you don't physically escalate on 2nd date, she'll friendzone/ghost you.

Hopefully, she'll reveal her favorite type of movies. You tuck this knowledge away until the end of the evening.. "I don't live too far away, let's head to my place and watch _____ (insert appealing title) ." Never say "would you like to" ... instead you lead. She can say yes or no. Either way, play it cool as if you aren't thirsty.

Inviting a girl to your place to watch a movie is an euphemism for 'I wanna have sex with you' ... considering that OP has said she's reserved and sensitive and they didn't even kiss yet, isn't that like suggesting to do 80mph in a 30mph zone?