Sorry Vegans...the truth hurts.

[EyeBRollin]

Are you saying its over for vegan-cels?

In 2023, it is possible to construct a balanced vegan diet with proper supplementation. Problem is most vegans do it for “ethical” reasons as opposed to health. Vegans have a toxic relationship with food (no pun intended). It’s basically a religion.

Most vegans I know have a problem with foods like honey. They also steer clear of all but the most organic peanut butter brands. If the facility the food is made in has any traces of animal foods, it is not considered vegan.

 

[Obee1]

Major health organization declares meat, eggs and milk are a source of vital nutrients that often are not contained in vegan sources or contained in meaningful levels that we need on a regular basis.

A major health organization says meat, eggs and milk are vital sources of ‘much-needed nutrients.’ Here’s why

Nutrients are especially critical for children, pregnant people and older adults.

www.yahoo.com

Any diet that requires a person to have to supplement with B12, calcium, iodine, iron, and creatine is not meant to be sustainable or optimal as a human diet. The nutrients that are available in a non animal based diets are less bioavailable than those found in animal products. Even the proteins are incomplete. Herbivores have very different stomachs and intestines than carnivores and and omnivores. Herbivores are able to ferment the plants to better absorb, digest, and use the nutrients. Humans intestines are at a length that can only ferment about 15% of what herbivores can. Humans or what would eventually become humans brains grew exponentially as did their progress as a species when they discovered fire, making weapons, and learned to hunt. Nature/ God put our eyes on the front of our faces because are F'ing predators. If he wanted us to be Herbivores he would have put our eyes on the sides of our face so we could look out for the predators while we grazed the land. Nothing against Vegans just don't push your agenda on me. But the fact that Skittles, moon pies, and grape soda are Vegan explains why many are skinny fat and generally not as healthy as they could be. I'm rambling now. Out!

 

[EyeBRollin]

Any diet that requires a person to have to supplement with B12, calcium, iodine, iron, and creatine is not meant to be sustainable or optimal as a human diet.

The only one listed here that is has to be supplemented by a vegan is B12.

The nutrients that are available in a non animal based diets are less bioavailable than those found in animal products. Even the proteins are incomplete.

That is a myth. Legumes are a more concentrated source of protein and iron then red meat.

Herbivores have very different stomachs and intestines than carnivores and and omnivores. Herbivores are able to ferment the plants to better absorb, digest, and use the nutrients.

Carnivores also have different stomachs than omnivores and herbivores. It just so happens that human anatomy (along with most omnivores) leans closer to herbivore than it does to carnivore.

Nature/ God put our eyes on the front of our faces because are F'ing predators. If he wanted us to be Herbivores he would have put our eyes on the sides of our face so we could look out for the predators while we grazed the land.

Probably shouldn’t bring God into it… The Bible is very clearly slanted towards vegetarian. It’s in the first book!

Genesis 1:29

Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

Our plant provisioning was granted first, long before we were permitted to eat meat.

Nothing against Vegans just don't push your agenda on me. But the fact that Skittles, moon pies, and grape soda are Vegan explains why many are skinny fat and generally not as healthy as they could be.

Just because junk shvt is “vegan,” doesn’t mean it’s advocated. That’s why a plant-based diet is usually referred to whole food-plant based (WFPB).

 

[Fruitbat]

Recurrently the diet which performs best in terms of longevity is the Mediterranean and Japanese diets.

Both are high in fish, low in red meat, moderate dairy, high in vegetables and whole grains.

The majority of studies show that excessive red meat isn’t good for you. White meat and fish are great.

It makes sense. It would be unlikely our ancestors continually killed large mammals. Most of the earliest human activity in Britain is around the shores - eating clams and ****les. It stands to reason things like birds and fish would have been everyday protein with an occasional treat of red meat.

I totally disagree vegetarian diets are healthy, in fact they are unhealthy. On the other hand, eating steaks every day isn’t healthy either. I believe fish and chicken are the best sources of protein with occasional red meat.

In defence of vegetarians - vegetable consumption is crucial to good health. We are omnivores. We need a blend.

Given the choice though I would take vegetarian over the standard western diet of low vegetables and high amounts of fructose and processed meat.

I have a rare form of arthritis and I have to manage inflammation. I can feel inflammation within hours of eating inflammatory foods which in many ways is a strength as it allows me to feel the kind of stress most people can’t - and therefore get diseases. In order of pain level:

1. Bread and refined wheat
2. sugar
3 very processed red meats. Cheap canned corned beef I can barely move the next day. Bacon and sausagemeat not too bad

things like Indian spices like tumeric etc loosen me up and I can feel the effect.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Recurrently the diet which performs best in terms of longevity is the Mediterranean and Japanese diets.

Both are high in fish, low in red meat, moderate dairy, high in vegetables and whole grains.

The majority of studies show that excessive red meat isn’t good for you. White meat and fish are great.

A lesser known diet is the Adventist diet. It is basically Mediterranean minus the chicken, olive oil, and wine. Adventists live ten years longer then Westerners on average.

White meat arguably isn’t any better than red meat. It’s higher in cholesterol and lower in vitamins. One can speculate the “healthier” rap comes from fatty cuts of white meat being “less bad” than fatty red meat. Also, the condition that poultry is raised in is… abhorrent.

A good alternative meat to try is goat meat. It is nutritionally comparable to beef, albeit very low in fat. Goat also isn’t as commercially produced. You can usually find it from ethnic butchers (usually Halal or South Asian).

 

[BackInTheGame78]

A lesser known diet is the Adventist diet. It is basically Mediterranean minus the chicken, olive oil, and wine. Adventists live ten years longer then Westerners on average.

White meat arguably isn’t any better than red meat. It’s higher in cholesterol and lower in vitamins. One can speculate the “healthier” rap comes from fatty cuts of white meat being “less bad” than fatty red meat. Also, the condition that poultry is raised in is… abhorrent.

A good alternative meat to try is goat meat. It is nutritionally comparable to beef, albeit very low in fat. Goat also isn’t as commercially produced. You can usually find it from ethnic butchers (usually Halal or South Asian).

The thing most people don't understand is how "bad" something is raised in a poor environment is directly related to how long the animal lives allowing those toxins and inflammatory compounds to build up over time.

That's why beef and pork is relatively much more important to be organic and free range, then say, chicken, since they live far longer before they are killed.

I will not touch non grass fed, free range organic beef. Don't eat pork. Eat chicken a lot, eat salmon a lot. Have added mackerel and sardines into the mix also. Free range, grass fed beef versus the crap you would normally buy in a store is so different from a nutrient profile it might as well be classified as a completely different food.

Eat fresh and cooked vegetables daily multiple times a day(other than my 2 fast days a week which I eat nothing), eat berries daily, sometimes other fruits like apples, pears and bananas although less frequently.

Eat raw almonds and raw pumpkin seeds probably every other day in smaller quantities. Researchers have found that almond calories counts are wrong (surprise surprise) and that an ounce which is claimed to have 170 actually only has 134 calories since some of it doesn't get digested.

 

[Obee1]

"The only one listed here that is has to be supplemented by a vegan is B12."


EyeBRollin, had I remembered how emotional and triggered you got when I made a similar post last year I probably would have skipped it as to not have to read through your pretentiously false rebuttals and twisting of my words. I'm not going to change your mind and you won't change mine. I'm sure you're well read as am I, and we both have practical experience that reinforces our beliefs. I'll give a brief response to your picking apart of my post and am happy to give you the last word. With the last word you should have the feeling of taking the "W" as I want you to sleep well.

Which vegetable can I find creatine in? As far as iron goes, Heme Iron found in meat is much different than the iron found in plants. Plant iron is poorly absorbed as it is inhibited by polyphenols, tannins and other plant toxins. In fact the lectins, oxalates, phytates, phytoestrogens (causing soy boys with moobs), and tannins have antinutrient qualities that restrict absorption calcium and iodine present in plants. This can cause all kinds of other issues from hormonal issues, guts issues, kidney stones yada yada yada.





"That is a myth. Legumes are a more concentrated source of protein and iron then red meat."

Ahh legumes. The food that makes one very ill or kills you if eaten raw. Calling this a myth is probably your most egregious statement. Please fact check me. 100 grams of cooked beef has 31.3 grams of protein. 100 grams of cooked beans has 8.9 grams of incomplete poorly absorbed protein. As far as iron goes, see above reference to Heme iron vs plant iron. Calorie wise I can eat 3 oz of steak for 180 calories and 25 grams of protein or I can eat a cup and a half of beans to get those 25 grams of incomplete protein for 374 calories.



"Carnivores also have different stomachs than omnivores and herbivores. It just so happens that human anatomy (along with most omnivores) leans closer to herbivore than it does to carnivore."

Not sure what your point is here. I'll agree with you here unless you're insinuating I need to be more like a herbivore. How about we just be omnivores.



"Probably shouldn’t bring God into it… The Bible is very clearly slanted towards vegetarian. It’s in the first book!

Genesis 1:29"

I never mentioned the Bible or Christianity. I stated "Nature/ God." Meaning whatever intelligently designed us and other species to thrive and survive in certain environments by giving us certain attributes.

"Our plant provisioning was granted first, long before we were permitted to eat meat."

I think my post acknowledges just that. Are you arguing just to be arguing. I was articulating that there is evidence that when what would eventually become humans, started hunting and eating meat is the same period when their brains and intellect grew as evidenced by skull size and also mobility, weapon systems, architecture yada yada.



"Just because junk shvt is “vegan,” doesn’t mean it’s advocated. That’s why a plant-based diet is usually referred to whole food-plant based (WFPB)."

I didn't say it was advocated. It was said mostly tongue and cheek but still stands true. Vegan had to change the name to WFPB because the word vegan started getting a bad rap much like environmentalist had to change global warming to climate change because the name couldn't support the facts.

Well that's enough keyboard warrioring to last me for the month. I will spend the rest of my weekend eating meat, throwing one of the gf's a bone, and counting stacks of $.

 

[Scaramouche]

Hi Obee1,


"That is a myth. Legumes are a more concentrated source of protein and iron then red meat."

Very interesting but what is your reference on this,where is the B12?...Not arguing the toss,genuinely want to learn as I eat lots of legumes.

 

[Obee1]

Hi Obee1,


"That is a myth. Legumes are a more concentrated source of protein and iron then red meat."

Very interesting but what is your reference on this,where is the B12?...Not arguing the toss,genuinely want to learn as I eat lots of legumes.

Hey Scarmouche, my post wasn't well organized and was a bit off the cuff as my argument is for a meat based diet. But if you want some interesting reading there is a ton of literature and studies just pay attention to who is funding and whether they are interventional or just a study of studies. Many vegan studies have healthy user bias to tilt the results in favor of veganism. Most vegans are somewhat health conscious. They'll put vegans up against meat eaters which will include the big mac eating, three pack a day smoker and beer drinker into the study. Reference the legumes vs meat debate, take a look here.

https://www.carnivoreisvegan.com/beef-vs-beans-how-vegans-deceive/



That is a myth. Legumes are a more concentrated source of protein and iron then red meat.



Carnivores also have different stomachs than omnivores and herbivores. It just so happens that human anatomy (along with most omnivores) leans closer to herbivore than it does to carnivore.



Probably shouldn’t bring God into it… The Bible is very clearly slanted towards vegetarian. It’s in the first book!

Genesis 1:29


Our plant provisioning was granted first, long before we were permitted to eat meat.



Just because junk shvt is “vegan,” doesn’t mean it’s advocated. That’s why a plant-based diet is usually referred to whole food-plant based (WFPB).
[/QUOTE]

 

[Fruitbat]

A lesser known diet is the Adventist diet. It is basically Mediterranean minus the chicken, olive oil, and wine. Adventists live ten years longer then Westerners on average.

White meat arguably isn’t any better than red meat. It’s higher in cholesterol and lower in vitamins. One can speculate the “healthier” rap comes from fatty cuts of white meat being “less bad” than fatty red meat. Also, the condition that poultry is raised in is… abhorrent.

A good alternative meat to try is goat meat. It is nutritionally comparable to beef, albeit very low in fat. Goat also isn’t as commercially produced. You can usually find it from ethnic butchers (usually Halal or South Asian).

I worked a week as a teenager on a battery chicken farm and I’ve never bought non free range (I thinkyanks call this pasture raised just to translate my limey babble) since then.

even in the med diet, chicken is once a week. I’m not some evangelist for white meat but the studies clearly show it’s far better than red

 

[Fruitbat]

Probably shouldn’t bring God into it… The Bible is very clearly slanted towards vegetarian. It’s in the first book!

Genesis 1:29


Our plant provisioning was granted first, long before we were permitted to eat meat.

[/QUOTE]

….it also said the world was made in 6 days.

Theres 2999 ish other Gods so we should consult their views on vegetarianism. Unless you’re lucky enough that the one you were culturally raised with and happened to fall into turns out to be the one true God and all the other people on planet earth are wrong, despite having no evidence for any of them.

 

[Scaramouche]

Hi Fruitbat,
Snap! as a boy of 14 I used to work weekends on a Chook Farm too...My first job was to collect
all the Moribunds and Deadens and stick them up the killing shute...Then I worked the Spray,drenching Chooks,cage and floor with probably carcinogenic compounds....Long way later on,as a gardener,I once
got a trailer load of Chook Dooh Dahs to spread on the Veggy patch....Never again...Three headed Cabbages,Warty Tomatoes,vile tasting Zuchinis...Took years to leach it out.

 

[Scaramouche]

Hi Obee1,
Thanks for that,looking forward to reading.