Would you rather screw slvts -- or get into a LTR with a loyal woman you deflowered?

[Zimbabwe]

I don't understand the notion that only virgins can be loyal. Loyalty is part of one's character like honesty and integrity.

A woman might be a virgin but have the most piss poor character you've ever seen, and her reasons for being a virgin should also be considered.

Not all virgins are pure and innocent snowflakes, ok her vagina has never been touched but as I said she might have poor character, lack integrity and honesty and turn out to be the most disloyal girlfriend you've ever had.

You can't know any of that simply based on her being a virgin. That's delusional thinking imo, no disrespect.

I agree with what @DoubleBarrel posted specifically that we ALL both men and women, learn the most from our failures and experiences.

Failure/experience does not automatically translate to being bitter and jaded, for either gender.

I've had three serious long term relationships which is where I gained my sexual experience.

They didn't work out for various reasons, I ended them, but I learned a great deal from each and every one of them and I took the knowledge and wisdom I gained into my next relationship and now into my current relationship.

All of it has made me a better girlfriend and human being. And I'm every bit as loyal as I was with my first boyfriend who took my virginity.

Perhaps even more so if that's possible. Having a few relationships under my belt, I can honesty say HE is the best and my loyalty at least in part, comes from that.

The rest is just my character and it extends to all parts of my life, family, friends, job etc.

But to a quality man who has options, we'd rather marry a virgin. Look into history and you'll find culture after culture, religion after religion, geographic area after geographic area who all placed a premium on female virginity.

You think your bf doesn't care? That's fine, but that won't change human nature. The reason why men have this preference is because it's embedded within male nature. Some have tried to explain why male nature is like this, some have offered good explanations, but one thing is for sure - this is nature.

I know it's difficult to accept that your value is lowered just because you had more sexual partners, no one wants to think of themselves as damaged goods. However, this still doesn't change the nature of men and what men find attractive or repulsive. Having had many sexual partners is something that will make you repulsive to most men.

Does Your Sexual History Affect Your Romantic Future?

Does Your Sexual History Affect Your Romantic Future?

www.huffpost.com

How number of sex partners could determine whether you'll get divorced

Nicholas H. Wolfinger, professor of Family and Consumer Studies at the University of Utah, studied statistics showing the number of sexual partners a person has could determine divorce rates

www.dailymail.co.uk

Oxytocin and Social Relationships: From Attachment to Bond Disruption - PMC

Social relationships throughout life are vital for well-being and physical and mental health. A significant amount of research in animal models as well as in humans suggests that oxytocin (OT) plays an important role in the development of the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[EyeBRollin]

Having had many sexual partners is something that will make you repulsive to most men.

Translation: hves are recreational use only.

 

[Gamisch]

Oke

But to a quality man who has options, we'd rather marry a virgin. Look into history and you'll find culture after culture, religion after religion, geographic area after geographic area who all placed a premium on female virginity.

You think your bf doesn't care? That's fine, but that won't change human nature. The reason why men have this preference is because it's embedded within male nature. Some have tried to explain why male nature is like this, some have offered good explanations, but one thing is for sure - this is nature.

I know it's difficult to accept that your value is lowered just because you had more sexual partners, no one wants to think of themselves as damaged goods. However, this still doesn't change the nature of men and what men find attractive or repulsive. Having had many sexual partners is something that will make you repulsive to most men.

Does Your Sexual History Affect Your Romantic Future?

Does Your Sexual History Affect Your Romantic Future?

www.huffpost.com

How number of sex partners could determine whether you'll get divorced

Nicholas H. Wolfinger, professor of Family and Consumer Studies at the University of Utah, studied statistics showing the number of sexual partners a person has could determine divorce rates

www.dailymail.co.uk

Oxytocin and Social Relationships: From Attachment to Bond Disruption - PMC

Social relationships throughout life are vital for well-being and physical and mental health. A significant amount of research in animal models as well as in humans suggests that oxytocin (OT) plays an important role in the development of the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I do believe that the ability to bond might be damaged after a x number of partners. Not gonna argue scientific research. On the other hand I believe a truly confident man believes he is the best that ever happened to a woman and that the experience of HIM erases whatever happened in the past. Could write a novel about it.

At what age does a man need to let this go?? Must a 45 year old dude stil be looking for a virgin? How we gonna stop the virgin from modern day fomo? I believe I asked you the latter several times but you never give a clear answer.

Funny thing is , we are all DJs right? So we are soooooo damn irresistible to women that they have no choice but to give it up whenever in the presence of a real man. Is the goal post to simply bang, or is this a conservative marriage forum now?

 

[DoubleBarrel]

The reason why men have this preference is because it's embedded within male nature. Some have tried to explain why male nature is like this, some have offered good explanations, but one thing is for sure - this is nature.

I'm quite confident the natural reason us men seem to value virginity is because we believe it ensures the woman will bear our child, rather than another man's without our knowledge.

But the problem is that putting our faith in a woman's virginity by no means guarantees that condition. Once she's experienced sex, we don't know how she's going to respond. Is she then going to get curious about what it might be like with other men, now that Pandora's Box has been opened? And what if somewhere along the way, having been naive to vetting her man, discovers he's really a "beta", then an "alpha" comes along and she starts having feelings she's never had before? Will she act on them?

To ensure a woman bears my child and not secretly another man's, I would much sooner put my faith in a woman who has developed her character, and has already demonstrated it by remaining loyal to her previous boyfriends. I would much, much sooner put my trust in her than in a virgin. She's impervious to "the grass is always greener" syndrome; but a virgin is susceptible.

 

[EyeBRollin]

I simply don't date those men, nor would they want to date me. That's fine. I don't take offense to it at all.

However, a great majority of men have no issue with it, in fact they prefer it and embrace it as attested to by @DoubleBarrel and @Gamisch to name a few.

Correction: Those men do not date you. You do not have leverage in this.

Men that accept or “embrace” women with a sexual history are settling. All of us settle to varying degrees based on the options available to us. In the West, it is highly unlikely to find virgins, meaning nearly every man in the West is settling. That does not make it ideal.

All things being equal, men view virgins as preferable due to higher reproductive value. This is a fact rooted in nature.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

Men, if they have the options and access, want both.

They want a committed, virgin wife. And they want to be able to fvck around freely, while she remains loyal.

Any man who gains enough power configures this type of relationship. He has his main woman, and a network of mistresses.

The problem is you have to be very powerful and high status before a woman will even consider putting up with this type of arrangement. And she will still privately resent it even if you’re king of the world.

Only a fool and a hypocrite expects from others that which he is unwilling to give in return.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

When you’re powerful, you can be a hypocrite.

Hypocrisy is only relevant if you’re not powerful.

Did Genghis Khan care that he simultaneously was a ruthless and strict ruler, but helped himself to half the women of Asia and beyond?

Mao Zedong did the same. As an example. While millions of Chinese starved to death, Mao enjoyed a harem of thousands of virgins.

This is reality. Men are greedy.

Same thing is happening today. Right under your nose. It’s just hidden a bit better

Do you judge all other men through the lens of your own twisted character?

By your reasoning, you can then also be a fool in addition to being a hypocrite.

The wise man's goal in life is to achieve happiness and peace of mind, which none of the wretches you mentioned achieved. What good is all the sex and power in the world, if a man is in perpetual mental distress?

 

[DoubleBarrel]

Describing reality doesn’t mean I support it.

You can observe human behaviour and be honest about it, or project your own ideals onto it and get angry about it.

The choice is yours. But human nature won’t change.

If you don't support it, why did you bring up examples of wicked men to prove your point, as if they are representative of all men's desires?

You claimed all men want a loyal, virgin wife, and also want to screw multitudes of women on the side. But the results of this poll would refute that claim.

Like I asked you: are you projecting your own sex obsession and your thirst for power over other men onto all men?

 

[DoubleBarrel]

Your idealism is causing your intelligence to fail. You’re obsessed with how the world “should be”, rather than the world “as it is.”

You can’t just ignore human behaviour. I’m telling you how humans actually behave and you go into extreme denial. It’s sad dude.

Instead of resorting to criticizing and patronizing me, you could actually address my arguments, instead of evading them (as seems to be your habit). After all, that's how debating works. But people who attack the one making the argument rather than the argument itself seem to demonstrate they lack faith in their own logic.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

I don’t actually have a position on it, dude. Maybe that’s my cope.

I observe human behaviour. Note what I see. And then accept it.

I spent a period of time when I was younger in your headspace, idealistic and angry that I probably wasn’t ever going to be able to create a healthy family in a world ruined by Alphas. But then I noticed that to change things requires a rewrite of the laws. It’s so simple. But nobody appears to understand it. It’s purely a legislative issue. Elite Alpha Men have changed the laws in a way that has allowed all women to remain on the sexual marketplace forever. Unless you can address this issue, all of your moral bleatings mean nothing to me.

You're a poor judge of character, Pan.

I don't agree with your approach of blaming the government and other men for my problems, or using them as an excuse for failing to create the circumstances and conditions I desire in life. That comes from a position of irresponsibility and powerlessness, and it doesn't lead to happiness and contentment in life. It just makes one bitter and angry, and resigned to their perceived fate.

A man who's in touch with his own power and volition fashions a vision of what he wants and, through grit and persistence, molds his reality to conform to that vision.

Your excuse is that the laws prevent you from creating a healthy family. Yet there are plenty of them out there. What's stopping you from joining their ranks?

 

[DoubleBarrel]

Like it or not, you live in a legal system. You must abide the rules of the system or face serious consequences.

This directly effects the quality of a relationship you’re legally able to have:

1. You don’t own your kids. The state does
2. You don’t own your wife. The state does
3. The state runs active incentives and propaganda to encourage both your wife and children to abandon you.
4. If you question anything about this system publicly you’ll be shut down in disgrace.
5. It’s obvious that the goal of the current system is to use Men’s desire to have a family against them. To destroy them.

Unfortunately what you’re doing is deluding yourself to the reality of the hopelessness of your current situation. You desire something that is legally currently impossible.

Be rational. You’re a man. It’s your job to be rational.

Have you ever considered getting a diagnosis to see if you're suffering from paranoid delusions? You remind me a lot of a friend of mine who thinks the world is flat and Trump is going to take money away from the very wealthy and redistribute it to the commoners. Yet he thinks he's enlightened and in on the secret agendas of the elites he thinks the rest of us are blind to. But anyone who disagrees with him is ignorant and stupid.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Lol, no correction needed, I already attested to that. That they don't want to date me. My exact words so not sure why you felt it needed repeating unless this was yet another attempt to knock me down, which is frankly getting old and boring, lol...

It is not a personal attack, nor designed to “knock you down.” For the audience, it is to reiterate that women simply do not have leverage in relationships.

And in turn I would not want to date them; I have no desire or interest in dating men who don't want to date me, it comes from valuing myself and a healthy dose of self esteem.

Irrelevant. Men decide if the girl gets the relationship.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

I merely draw your attention to a legal system that you live in…..and you start talking about flat earth and Trump?

Dude, the Alpha Elites that control your reality have literally turned your mind to mud.

Stay focused. The issue is simple. The legal system you live in is screwing you if your goal is to start a family.

Stop having a beta temper tantrum and focus your mind. Your enemy are the men who have changed the laws. You can research who they are. It’s all men. You fix the problem by getting to the root.

I admit, you're pretty charismatic, the way you speak with conviction as if you're an authority. You'd probably make for a successful cult leader. Gullible people would eat your propaganda right up. But I'm no longer interested in wasting my time on this. I meant to finish a philosophy book today, before you entered this thread, and now I'm regretting getting involved in this discussion. But I wish you the best.

To everyone else, I apologize for letting Pan derail the thread and take our attention off the actual topic. I played my role in it.

 

[Zimbabwe]

When a person possesses high value within themselves and knows their own worth, nothing anyone says or posts can ever take that away

Virginity is a woman's greatest asset, some women sell it for millions of dollars and others use it to lock down a top tier man. Women shouldn't just be giving it away so easily to their first boyfriends.

Funny thing is , we are all DJs right? So we are soooooo damn irresistible to women that they have no choice but to give it up whenever in the presence of a real man. Is the goal post to simply bang, or is this a conservative marriage forum now?

Every DJ eventually wants to settle down, nobody wants to be player in their 50s (I understand there are some exceptions). Naturally we lose attraction for women who give it up too easily anyways.

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

Hmmmm. Interesting discussion so far. A few musings on the topic….

Certainly I have learned, evolved and grown as a result of my relationships that ended. I say ended rather than failed because really the relationships changed in such a way as to become incompatible with my value system…so I left.

I remain in relationships with a number of men who were once intimate partners because that’s what evolved from the interaction when I stood up for my values. An ex boyfriend from 35 years ago remains a close friend & confidant. He is a financial backer in my business and he is a trustee on my trust. That means I trust him with my money and my children’s welfare. It’s the greatest trust I can issue outside my personal intimacy and vulnerability. And he reciprocated similarly. That is not a failed relationship although we have not been intimate partners for decades.

My relationship with my ex husband is amicable. We co-parent & communicate well, and he assists me where applicable in my business affairs from time to time. The marriage did fail (his behavior went consistently outside my value system for a long time despite stated warnings and timelines that I would leave.). Most rational divorce ever; quite amicable. He knew he didn’t hold up his end of the bargain. But the relationship remains ongoing, evolved to its current state.

Both of the above men as well as a few others see me as “the one who got away”.

High value people always have leverage in relationships. I know I do.

As to the virginity thing historically that has indeed been about chastity and purity and childbearing. But there is something else at play too.

A virgin only has experienced sex with the man who receives her virginity. That means if he is terrible in bed she has no idea; no frame of reference. Nothing to compare him to. This has massive appeal to a vast number of men who are insecure and fumbling around often themselves. It removes him having to wonder about how he measures up sexually and that is massively reassuring to lots of men, especially young and/or inexperienced men.

Men who really “get” women and are good at the art of seduction may enjoy the conquest of the virgin from an ego standpoint but often, especially if they are older, want to enjoy a partner who knows what to do rather than teach and inexperienced woman all about sex and help her work through her shyness or aversions to certain things etc. A handful of player types have told me this.

The idea of a virgin preserves a man’s ego in many ways. The players out there don’t need their ego preserved. And they may not have the patience to deal with it.

Ideally both partners are virgins at marriage. That way they learn together, create a sacred bond together and grow together as one flesh in many ways. This is foreign to many men, who think sex is the end result. No. A meaningful relationship that includes sex is the end result.

But yes I’ve certainly learned from past relationships and I have carried the wisdom forward and left the baggage behind. That’s the important part as you gain experience. Learn to see each interaction as the new thing that it is and the potential wonderful thing you construct with your partner. Never saddle a new interaction with old scars and old wounds; with baggage. That’s the key to keep from being jaded out there.

Cheers

 

[zekko]

The idea of a virgin preserves a man’s ego in many ways. The players out there don’t need their ego preserved. And they may not have the patience to deal with it.

I don't personally need a virgin, but neither do I want a slvt. The appeal of a virgin is not all to do with a man's ego. I think men legitimately find the quality of innocence to be extremely appealing in women. It's one reason men find young women so attractive, many of them look innocent, even if they are the farthest thing from it. And again, innocence is a very rare quality.

 

[BeExcellent]

I don't personally need a virgin, but neither do I want a slvt. The appeal of a virgin is not all to do with a man's ego. I think men legitimately fond the quality of innocence to be extremely appealing in women. It's one reason men find young women so attractive, many of them look innocent, even if they are the farthest thing from it. And again, innocence is a very rare quality.

Agreed. What sometimes lacks around here is the acknowledgment of a continuum. Too many guys think in binary terms…either she’s a virgin or she’s a s l u t without understanding all the gradations in between…which is where your normal quality type woman is going to be.

 

[zekko]

Another thing that's appealing about virgin women is that if there is a child, you know that it's yours. Survival of your DNA and all that. Although she could always have sex with you and then go out the next day and get impregnated by someone else and you would never be the wiser.

 

[pipeman84]

A virgin only has experienced sex with the man who receives her virginity. That means if he is terrible in bed she has no idea; no frame of reference. Nothing to compare him to. This has massive appeal to a vast number of men who are insecure and fumbling around often themselves. It removes him having to wonder about how he measures up sexually and that is massively reassuring to lots of men, especially young and/or inexperienced men.

I don't think this applies nowadays with so much information at our fingertips...a 3 pump chump might appear to be a Sex Master to some virgin in a remote part of the world, but any girl with access to internet will know he's no good.

Like I mentioned above, a woman who only knows one man would not have the capacity to recognize that I am a great catch, and thus she would not truly appreciate me the way a woman with some experience can; because a virgin is naive, she is liable to take me for granted as opposed to being grateful that I am her mate.

A woman who has had 1-3 long-term boyfriends has made mistakes, learned from them and evolved as a woman, and gained the ability to know what pleases a man. She has also been on the receiving end of men's behavior in a relationship and has learned to differentiate between a man's desirable and undesirable conduct towards her; therefore, she is better equipped to recognize that what I have to offer will make for a happy and peaceful relationship. A virgin is blind to this; she ignorant.

I've asked myself the same question and still haven't come up with an answer. Your argument against a virgin is that she hasn't dealt with one or more shi*y guys so she's really grateful once she meets you, the good guy. My argument against this would be...does a smart person really has to burn herself before realizing it's bad to stick fingers in fire? In other words, smart people learn from other's mistakes, life is too short for one to make all the mistakes necessary for learning. My main point against a virgin is that finding a 24-25yrs old virgin who is attractive and clinically sane would be a bit like winning the lottery.

The problem I have with the 1-3 long term boyfriends is that every past boyfriend is a hit on two very important characteristics of a girlfriend: loyalty and rational thinking. I mean, a girl with top loyalty and who properly vets her boyfriend will stay with her first guy for life (I was impressed to find out about Queen Elizabeth who set her eyes on Prince Phillip when she was 13 and he 18). Now, I know life is messy and people are not perfect, but still the question remains...where's the right balance between her learning from experience and loyalty being ireparably damaged ? 1,2,3 past boyfriends?

 

[Dr.Suave]

I choose the virgin any day of the week but I think nothing of people who would choose different. I guess to me its just a matter of personal taste.